Eleanor of Austria bears children for Francis I?

I don't know why the hell they weren't trying for kids, tbh. Yeah, he and Claude had seven kids (four of those being sons), but literally only one son outlived Francis I (you'd think he'd be getting paranoid), plus the more the better right? And Eleanor wasn't infertile, she had a daughter, plus she was 32 when she married which isn't too old for childbearing. Let's say Francis gets over his hatred of Charles for the sake of his realm's succession and gets Eleanor pregnant multiple times. These would be their children:

Joanna (b. 1533)
Philip (b. 1534)
Ferdinand (b. 1536)


Could the house of Valois actually make it past the next generation with these extra children? Who are these children most likely to marry, and what would the sons' positions at court be?
 
If all three children live, that means Prince Charles is not getting one of his successive titles like Bourbon, Clermont, Angouleme, etc.

I'd imagine that these kids would be kind of lost, and the Habsburg would be even more insistent in the 1544 treaty of Crepy. One of these kids is unironically getting either the Netherlands or Milan, as Charles and Ferdinand will see them as less threatening than Charles of France otl. They're probably going to be monarchs in their own right and powerful enough. Things really heat up, then, when the descendants of these princes inherit France.
 
If all three children live, that means Prince Charles is not getting one of his successive titles like Bourbon, Clermont, Angouleme, etc.

I'd imagine that these kids would be kind of lost, and the Habsburg would be even more insistent in the 1544 treaty of Crepy. One of these kids is unironically getting either the Netherlands or Milan, as Charles and Ferdinand will see them as less threatening than Charles of France otl. They're probably going to be monarchs in their own right and powerful enough. Things really heat up, then, when the descendants of these princes inherit France.
Kind of lost?

Can you imagine a Habsburg-Valois joined empire.
 
I don't know why the hell they weren't trying for kids, tbh. Yeah, he and Claude had seven kids (four of those being sons), but literally only one son outlived Francis I (you'd think he'd be getting paranoid), plus the more the better right? And Eleanor wasn't infertile, she had a daughter, plus she was 32 when she married which isn't too old for childbearing. Let's say Francis gets over his hatred of Charles for the sake of his realm's succession and gets Eleanor pregnant multiple times. These would be their children:

Joanna (b. 1533)
Philip (b. 1534)
Ferdinand (b. 1536)


Could the house of Valois actually make it past the next generation with these extra children? Who are these children most likely to marry, and what would the sons' positions at court be?
Eleanor had at least a miscarriage during her wedding to Francis meaning who Francis sometimes shared her bed…

If all three children live, that means Prince Charles is not getting one of his successive titles like Bourbon, Clermont, Angouleme, etc.

I'd imagine that these kids would be kind of lost, and the Habsburg would be even more insistent in the 1544 treaty of Crepy. One of these kids is unironically getting either the Netherlands or Milan, as Charles and Ferdinand will see them as less threatening than Charles of France otl. They're probably going to be monarchs in their own right and powerful enough. Things really heat up, then, when the descendants of these princes inherit France.
I guess who ATL Crepy would be complicated by the existence of this younger sons of Francis but once Charles of Angoulême/Orléans died, I guess who Philip married to one of his Austrian cousins (either Catherine or Eleanor) would replace him as designated ruler of Milan (and would inherit all the lands given/promised to his half-brother Charles transforming him in a very powerful foe for the future Henry II of France
 
Eleanor had at least a miscarriage during her wedding to Francis meaning who Francis sometimes shared her bed…


I guess who ATL Crepy would be complicated by the existence of this younger sons of Francis but once Charles of Angoulême/Orléans died, I guess who Philip married to one of his Austrian cousins (either Catherine or Eleanor) would replace him as designated ruler of Milan (and would inherit all the lands given/promised to his half-brother Charles transforming him in a very powerful foe for the future Henry II of France
Eleanor had a miscarriage :eek:?? Where is this information found because I can't find it
So Philip is likely going to go the Habsburg route and marry a cousin ?
 
Eleanor had a miscarriage :eek:?? Where is this information found because I can't find it
So Philip is likely going to go the Habsburg route and marry a cousin ?
IIRC she pleaded pregnancy in late 1532 to avoid meeting with Anne Boleyn, the nemesis of her aunt, Catherine of Aragon. Since she did not give birth, it seems that this pregnancy ended in miscarriage.

As for Philip's marriage, I think he would replace his half-brother Charles in regards to the Treaty of Crepy, which means that he will marry either Maria of Austria or Anne of Austria, who are both his first cousins.
 
IIRC she pleaded pregnancy in late 1532 to avoid meeting with Anne Boleyn, the nemesis of her aunt, Catherine of Aragon. Since she did not give birth, it seems that this pregnancy ended in miscarriage.

As for Philip's marriage, I think he would replace his half-brother Charles in regards to the Treaty of Crepy, which means that he will marry either Maria of Austria or Anne of Austria, who are both his first cousins.
Interesting, I did not see this information anywhere but I could be searching in the wrong places. I mean, Charles is still alive when Crepy was drafted, why would he be replaced ? I'm sure Maria/Anne would prefer marrying someone closer to the throne
 
IIRC she pleaded pregnancy in late 1532 to avoid meeting with Anne Boleyn, the nemesis of her aunt, Catherine of Aragon. Since she did not give birth, it seems that this pregnancy ended in miscarriage.

As for Philip's marriage, I think he would replace his half-brother Charles in regards to the Treaty of Crepy, which means that he will marry either Maria of Austria or Anne of Austria, who are both his first cousins.
Both Anna and Maria are too old for him (Anna of Austria and Maria of Spain are 6 years older, while Maria of Austria 3 years older) meaning who they are more useful married elsewhere and one between Catherine and Eleanor can be married to little Philip.
 
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Interesting, I did not see this information anywhere but I could be searching in the wrong places. I mean, Charles is still alive when Crepy was drafted, why would he be replaced ? I'm sure Maria/Anne would prefer marrying someone closer to the throne
Agreed. The original offer would still be Anna of Austria or Maria of Spain for Charles, with extensive appanages not only for Charles but also for Eleanor‘s sons. After Charles’ death the offer would be of one between Catherine and Eleanor of Austria for Philip with either Burgundy or Milan as dowry.
 
Kind of lost?

Can you imagine a Habsburg-Valois joined empire.
Kind of lost as in they'd be very divided between their heritages. Francis I doubt would treat their mother better in this timeline, and you can be sure that Eleanor would from the moment they were born fill their head with Habsburg propaganda. They'd probably be very /dangerous/.

And yes... That'd be glorious, lol. The House of Valois-Habsburg, universal monarchs of Christendom.
 
I guess who ATL Crepy would be complicated by the existence of this younger sons of Francis but once Charles of Angoulême/Orléans died, I guess who Philip married to one of his Austrian cousins (either Catherine or Eleanor) would replace him as designated ruler of Milan (and would inherit all the lands given/promised to his half-brother Charles transforming him in a very powerful foe for the future Henry II of France
Or a very powerful ally. It seems to me that most of Henri the II's disagreement with Charles came not really from a real animosity between them but both Charles and Henri's easily influentiable demeanor in their youth. It was a spat, and Henri truly mourned Charles when he died. We've no clue as to what would happen with Philip and Ferdinand, but he could be either a great foe for Henri (If he only has Milan, /doubt/, if he manages to snatch both Milan and Palatinate Burgundy to assure his french appanages, he'd be much more dangerous, but still no competition for the King of France. The real danger would be his deary uncles and cousin in the Empire and Spain, who would probably try to use him for their own ends...
 
Or a very powerful ally. It seems to me that most of Henri the II's disagreement with Charles came not really from a real animosity between them but both Charles and Henri's easily influentiable demeanor in their youth. It was a spat, and Henri truly mourned Charles when he died. We've no clue as to what would happen with Philip and Ferdinand, but he could be either a great foe for Henri (If he only has Milan, /doubt/, if he manages to snatch both Milan and Palatinate Burgundy to assure his french appanages, he'd be much more dangerous, but still no competition for the King of France. The real danger would be his deary uncles and cousin in the Empire and Spain, who would probably try to use him for their own ends...
Charles V with the offer of his daughter/niece with Burgundy/Milan for Charles was setting the latter to be his brother’s greatest foe as Charles was to receive a lot of French lands (the Duchies of Angoulême, Châtellerault, Bourbon and Orléans) as appanage for balancing the dowry of his bride.
 
Charles V with the offer of his daughter/niece with Burgundy/Milan for Charles was setting the latter to be his brother’s greatest foe as Charles was to receive a lot of French lands (the Duchies of Angoulême, Châtellerault, Bourbon and Orléans) as appanage for balancing the dowry of his bride.
I think he received Orleans at birth, but yes this is true, it was setting it up but even OTL Charles received the titles the same and from the histories the rivalry was very much one sided and feeded on by courtiers, not a real rivalry.
 
Yeah, he and Claude had seven kids (four of those being sons), but literally only one son outlived Francis I
Francis I and Claude had four daughters and three sons. Only Henry II and Marguerite outlived Francis.

Let's say Francis gets over his hatred of Charles for the sake of his realm's succession and gets Eleanor pregnant multiple times. These would be their children:

Joanna (b. 1533)
Philip (b. 1534)
Ferdinand (b. 1536)
As it was pointed out, after Charles d'Orléans' death, Philip would immediately replace him in the application of the Treaty of Crepy. It means he would marry an Austrian archduchess and would become duke of Milan. Of course, he would also inherit most of Charles d'Orléans' French titles.
I don't know if he would become a "foe" for his half-brother Henry II but what is sure is that he would be the most powerful lord in France, in addition of being duke of Milan. As a result, he would necessarily be a prominant actor of the French Religious Wars. Of course, it is difficult to figure how he would position in these wars.

Ferdinand's fate is more uncertain.
In OTL, Catherine de Medici tried to arrange a marriage between her son the duke of Anjou (future Henry III) and the widowed Juana of Austria, with Milan or Netherlands as a dowry. Considering that, maybe Ferdinand would have the same purpose for himself: marrying Juana with Netherlands as a dowry (as Milan is already token by Philip) but, of course, Charles V and Philip II would have little to no reason to accept. Maybe Ferdinand would end up doing precisely what the duke of Alençon did in OTL: siding with Dutch rebels and being elected by them.
Another possibility for him is a rapprochement between France and Portugal and a marriage with Maria of Portugal (OTL duchess of Parma). If Portuguese succession still goes as in OTL, it may have huge consequences as Ferdinand and Maria's children would have a claim (maybe the best claim) to the Portuguese throne after the cardinal-king's death.

As for Joanna, as weird as it seems, I think there are good chances that she would marry... Edward VI.
In OTL, Edward VI was fianced to Elisabeth of France, Henry II's daughter, in 1551. At this time, Edward was 14 and Elisabeth was only 6, meaning he had to wait her to grow up. But he died before and the marriage never occured. There was, at this time, a grown up celibate princess in France: Marguerite, Henry II's sister. I guess she was not considered for Edward VI because of the age gap: she was 28 at this time, so 14 years older than him. But Joanna would be much closer in age to Edward: she would only be 4 years older. Then, I see no reason to wait Elisabeth to grow up: you can simply marry 14 years old Edward to 18 years old Joanna. And if Edward manages to impregnate Joanna before dying, English succession is not the same as in OTL. There may be a fight for regency between Joanna and Mary Tudor. Or the two may make an alliance in order to bring England back to Catholicism.
 
Well, if the children can survive, and perhaps even have children or grandchildren of their own (or more), then the House of Bourbon would be prevented from gaining control of the French throne (due to the fact that these children would be closer in seniority in the French line of succession to Henry III than OTL's Henry IV would be), most likely it would be Philip's line that would house the French monarchy (or perhaps Ferdinand's, if Philip's line dies out). Either way, then the French and Spanish thrones would not be divided amongst the sons of the Great Dauphin (with them only inheriting the Spanish throne), which makes the War of Spanish Succession a little less contentious than it was in OTL (actually, they would have an advantage, since the other branch of the Habsburg dynasty already controls the Holy Roman Empire, while the Bourbons would still only control the small nation of Navarre, meaning Navarre would be a part of Spain instead of France in TTL).
 
Kind of lost as in they'd be very divided between their heritages. Francis I doubt would treat their mother better in this timeline, and you can be sure that Eleanor would from the moment they were born fill their head with Habsburg propaganda. They'd probably be very /dangerous/.

And yes... That'd be glorious, lol. The House of Valois-Habsburg, universal monarchs of Christendom.
Ooooh and then they're (Francis/Eleanor offspring) the centre of their family's fighting. Of course. Can you imagine if one of them gets to rule over France and then marries their Habsburg monarch cousin.
 
Francis I and Claude had four daughters and three sons. Only Henry II and Marguerite outlived Francis.


As it was pointed out, after Charles d'Orléans' death, Philip would immediately replace him in the application of the Treaty of Crepy. It means he would marry an Austrian archduchess and would become duke of Milan. Of course, he would also inherit most of Charles d'Orléans' French titles.
I don't know if he would become a "foe" for his half-brother Henry II but what is sure is that he would be the most powerful lord in France, in addition of being duke of Milan. As a result, he would necessarily be a prominant actor of the French Religious Wars. Of course, it is difficult to figure how he would position in these wars.

Ferdinand's fate is more uncertain.
In OTL, Catherine de Medici tried to arrange a marriage between her son the duke of Anjou (future Henry III) and the widowed Juana of Austria, with Milan or Netherlands as a dowry. Considering that, maybe Ferdinand would have the same purpose for himself: marrying Juana with Netherlands as a dowry (as Milan is already token by Philip) but, of course, Charles V and Philip II would have little to no reason to accept. Maybe Ferdinand would end up doing precisely what the duke of Alençon did in OTL: siding with Dutch rebels and being elected by them.
Another possibility for him is a rapprochement between France and Portugal and a marriage with Maria of Portugal (OTL duchess of Parma). If Portuguese succession still goes as in OTL, it may have huge consequences as Ferdinand and Maria's children would have a claim (maybe the best claim) to the Portuguese throne after the cardinal-king's death.

As for Joanna, as weird as it seems, I think there are good chances that she would marry... Edward VI.
In OTL, Edward VI was fianced to Elisabeth of France, Henry II's daughter, in 1551. At this time, Edward was 14 and Elisabeth was only 6, meaning he had to wait her to grow up. But he died before and the marriage never occured. There was, at this time, a grown up celibate princess in France: Marguerite, Henry II's sister. I guess she was not considered for Edward VI because of the age gap: she was 28 at this time, so 14 years older than him. But Joanna would be much closer in age to Edward: she would only be 4 years older. Then, I see no reason to wait Elisabeth to grow up: you can simply marry 14 years old Edward to 18 years old Joanna. And if Edward manages to impregnate Joanna before dying, English succession is not the same as in OTL. There may be a fight for regency between Joanna and Mary Tudor. Or the two may make an alliance in order to bring England back to Catholicism.
I thought of Maria of Portugal (OTL duchess of Parma) who was one year younger than Edward, that could work, but she was betrothed to someone else. Elisabeth of Valois is way too young for Edward who desperately needs a male heir quickly before he dies, assuming he's still sickly as hell. Yes I know Henry and Marguerite were the only ones that outlived Francis lol. Hence what I said, only one son outlived him.
May I suggest: Ferdinand marrying whichever daughter Catherine de Medici pops out first
 
Or a very powerful ally. It seems to me that most of Henri the II's disagreement with Charles came not really from a real animosity between them but both Charles and Henri's easily influentiable demeanor in their youth. It was a spat, and Henri truly mourned Charles when he died. We've no clue as to what would happen with Philip and Ferdinand, but he could be either a great foe for Henri (If he only has Milan, /doubt/, if he manages to snatch both Milan and Palatinate Burgundy to assure his french appanages, he'd be much more dangerous, but still no competition for the King of France. The real danger would be his deary uncles and cousin in the Empire and Spain, who would probably try to use him for their own ends...
I don't think he'll snatch Milan and Palatinate Burgundy tbh
 
Well, if the children can survive, and perhaps even have children or grandchildren of their own (or more), then the House of Bourbon would be prevented from gaining control of the French throne (due to the fact that these children would be closer in seniority in the French line of succession to Henry III than OTL's Henry IV would be), most likely it would be Philip's line that would house the French monarchy (or perhaps Ferdinand's, if Philip's line dies out). Either way, then the French and Spanish thrones would not be divided amongst the sons of the Great Dauphin (with them only inheriting the Spanish throne), which makes the War of Spanish Succession a little less contentious than it was in OTL (actually, they would have an advantage, since the other branch of the Habsburg dynasty already controls the Holy Roman Empire, while the Bourbons would still only control the small nation of Navarre, meaning Navarre would be a part of Spain instead of France in TTL).
It is highly unikely that the Bourbons would still marry princesses of Spain if they do not become kings of France in the first place.

I thought of Maria of Portugal (OTL duchess of Parma) who was one year younger than Edward, that could work, but she was betrothed to someone else.
The marriage between Maria of Portugal and Alexander of Parma was decided by Philip II after Charles V's death.
It is entirely possible for Maria to marry someone else before (she was 20 when Charles V died).

May I suggest: Ferdinand marrying whichever daughter Catherine de Medici pops out first
Why such a marriage?
Also, as far as I know, France has no precedent of uncle/niece marriage.
 
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May I suggest: Ferdinand marrying whichever daughter Catherine de Medici pops out first
That daughter's reserved for a foreign monarch, not a domestic match with her uncle. While uncle/niece marriage was not exactly frowned upon at the time, it's better to marry the hypothetical eldest daughter of the Dauphin to someone prestigious, preferably with a proper crown of their own.

Also, Ferdinand is a Spanish name, and I'm not sure that would go over so well with the French. Jeanne and Philippe are fine names, but Jean after Francis's grandfather works better as a name, especially since Jeanne and Philippe are named after Eleanor's parents, so Francis will probably get to choose the name for at least one child(even if he doesn't name the daughter Louise for his deceased mother who died in 1531).

Philippe would take Charles's place in Crepy, and instead of Maria of Spain with the Netherlands or Franche-Comté/Anna of Austria with Milan being offered here, it would probably be Juana of Spain with the Netherlands or Franche-Comté/Margaret of Austria with Milan. Juana is born in 1535, one year younger, and Margaret is born in 1536, and she's ideal for a butterflied bride since IOTL she was a nun, so one doesn't need to worry about children and later descendants being accidentally butterflied away.
 
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