Both white and black, free and slave where constantly wiped by disease in the tropical regions of America, it was like a meat grinder and it helps to explain why the US and more specifically New England + New York + Pennsylvania had a populational growth above all other places in the continent.
PC: Viable Climates for White Slavery
- Thread starter Kaiser Tito
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- slavery
The problem is that MENA and European slaves weren’t used as agricultural slaves in the MENA region, they tended to be used as soldiers, administrators, house servant and concubines. Agricultural and mining slaves were mostly Africans.
PsyloSurgeon
Banned
Not slavery, but some export of serfdom the temperate America could work. Something similar existed with Dutch Patroons and Quebec seigneurial system. Perhaps wank those two?
If by New World you mean the vast majority of human history, then yes. New World.
Slavery of course existed in every human civilization, with it's ending being one of the demands of the 1848 Hungarian revolution in Austria (only a decade before the ACW). But the systematic chattel slavery based on dehumanizing a specific ethnicity (white in the OP) was created in the New World, and that's the slavery most people refer to when they hear &/or visualize the word.
Dagoth Ur
Banned
Nah, look at the use of slaves in the caliphates and the Ottoman Empire. In the caliphates especially the vast majority of agricultural slaves were from sub-Saharan Africa to the point there are a significant amount of Middle Easterners with sub-Saharan mitochondrial (female line) DNA. White slaves were used more often in households and armies, like janissaries. The Ottomans also thought of Europeans as clearly more civilized. No reason to think that would stop with colonization and even more tropical work.
Chattel slavery is simply slavery in which one person has total ownership over another. That’s how slavery has worked in the vast majority of human history. Even what you talk about isn’t actually all that much different than how slavery was generally practiced. Slavery has always been a vile institution. It was little to no different in the new world or the old.
Rattenfänger von Memphis
Donor
Boy, did I misunderstand the title of this thread. My first thought, before even reading Kaiser Tito's first post, was that white slavery was probably viable everywhere at any time, including the present.
White Slavery 3.4 to me, and I am old, has always historically meant making white women into prostitutes.
Live and learn.
White Slavery 3.4 to me, and I am old, has always historically meant making white women into prostitutes.
Live and learn.
Wikipedia 3.4 said:
True, but Chattel Slavery didn't discriminate racially before the Atlantic Slave Trade.
Slavery in West Africa which is what I'm most knowledgeable about could take many forms from War Captives and Military Slaves (Janissaries), Criminals, all the way to Court Slaves (Bureaucrats) each class being treated differently under the law with Chattel being an import to the coastal regions under European influence. A Slave in West Africa could rise to become a King, two of which happened during the late 18th and late 19th century with Ngolo Diarra and Samori Ture respectively, an impossible under chattel slavery where you're bred like cattle with zero hope for social mobility.
That is not exactly true, the system is more complicated than that, there were slaves that owned other slaves, there were slaves that bought their own freedom, former slaves that became rich, and sons of slaves that achieve nobility. So, there wasn't zero social mobility, even though the crushing majority would suffer their fate till the end of their days it isn't such an oddity when compared with Roman and Greek slavery for example.
Temperate and maybe subtropical climates could have white slavery. If, say, Morocco or Mali colonized Argentina, they may have imported white slaves captured from Southern Europe by Barbary pirates, albeit on a scale nowhere near OTL's Atlantic Slave Trade.
Say What? Where? How? Seriously, this is the first time I heard this. BTW I mean the Atlantic/Americas, I'm aware classical slavery was also diverse.
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European slavery in antiquity and early Middle Ages was very much like African slavery. Countless people were bought and sold. Peter Frankopan’s Silk Roads even goes into how the Venetians pulled themselves out of the Dark Ages selling Slavic slaves around the Mediterranean, how Prague was a massive slave market. The main difference between the European and African slave trade was no advanced foreign civilization with a thousand year lead arrived to exploit the European slave trade when it was at it’s peak. European slavery was so long ago people forgot about it. The Russians might still have Harvesting the Steppe in their national memory, but it’s nothing like African slavery which is so recent it lasted into the age of photography.
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That's not really true, MENA slaves were used in mediterranean or Macaronesian sugar plantations.
Not as we would see race, but there’s a reason slave as a word descended from the word Slav.
Except there absolutely could be social mobility. One of the underlying tensions within Haiti while it was a colony was between the free colorleds and the White French, because the free coloreds were often the wealthiest people on the island, more even than the wealthy whites (because the whites would come from France to make a fortune, and then leave, while the coloreds built up their wealth on Haiti). The free coloreds were all either freed slaves or their descendants. This also led to interracial marriage as poor white (men) would marry free colored (women) so that the children of the colored woman would gain additional status under the law from having a French father, while the white man would gain access to his wife’s wealth.
You can also see similar dynamics in say New Orleans, where black slaveownets existed all the way to the ACW.
Which to be clear this was always the case.
Dagoth Ur
Banned
Didn't discriminate racially, really? Not the Balkan and Armenian and Georgian slaves of the Ottomans, the Chinese and Japanese and Korean sailors the Vietnamese castrated and enslaved, not the black slaves taken for field work or castration by the caliphates and Ottomans, Greeks enslaved en masse in southern Italy and Sicily for field work by the Romans who kept them chained together and underfed day and night because they were easily replaceable, Slavs raided and captured to the point the ethnonym becomes the etymology for the word slave...need I go on?
Yeah it's pretty obvious you're most knowledgeable of slavery in West Africa.
Citation please.
What time period are you talking about, what countries are you talking about, and what social strata of slaveowner?
While I can't think of any exceptions off the top of my head, I believe every slave society ever had preferences as to which group they enslaved which we can tell from 19th/20th century anthropological accounts of various indigenous groups or from the Bible where the rules for Israelite slavery are recorded that make distinctions between Jews and non-Jews. This is reflected historically, where Europeans made distinctions between various African groups in terms of how viable they were as slaves. This was usually made in extremely crude terms (presumably targeted at slave merchants and people wanting to buy slaves) that described some African groups as generally obedient and hardworking, others as "lazy" or "rebellious", or various other stereotypes. This affected how Europeans dealt with sub-Saharan Africa given the genetics of African-descended people in the Americas.
Wow! What vitriol.
Also maybe try to not mix up race with culture/nationality? Different definitions and all.
Good day to you.