Napoleon wins the Battle of Znaim 11 - 12 July 1809

On 12 July 1809 Napoleon smashed the main Austrian field army commanded by Archduke Charles at the Battle of Znaim. Having refused to even grant an audiance to Austrian negotiators concentrating Marmont's, Massena's, Davout's, Oudinot's Corps plus the Reserve heavy cavalry and the Imperial Gaurd under his own command on the battlefield.Archduke Charles, having been pinned in place during the fighting of 11 July had no option other than to fight on the 12th. Napoleon won the most brilliant victory of his career, recognized by military historians as greater than Austerlitz, Jena and Friedland. Davou and Oudinot smashed the Austrian left while Marmont and Massena pinned the Austrian center and right. By late afternoon ArchdukeCharles was surrounded with his army's back to the River Thaya. Shortly after 5.30PM Napoleon orderede a ceasefire and dispatched plenipotentiaries to the Archduke Charles demanding his surrender and that of his army. Charles had no option but to comply/ By 7PM the entire Austrian army began laying down their arms on the field of battle.

With the main field army destroyed apart from a few scattered forces in Hungary, Poland and Bohemia Emperor Francis II had no option other than to accept whatever terms Napoleon cared to dictate. Those terms were harsh, even more so than Napoleon's treatment of Prussia at the end of the War of the Fourth Coalition. Under the Treaty of Schonbrunn, signed on August 24 the Hapsburg Empire was dismembered and broken up. Davout was made Prince of Hungary which now became a French puppet state as a reward for his excellent service during the War of 1809 though some parts of the province were annexed to Eugene's Viceroyship of Italy. A large portion of Bohemia were annexed either to Bavaria or Saxony. Hapsburg territories were reduced to a rump state of Austria and their remaining territories in Bohemia. Worse was to follow for Francis himself. He was forced to abdicate in favour of Archduke Ferdinand. Francis and those of his ministers who were considered guilty of starting the war most notably Stadion were taken under close arrest to be housed under close supervision of Fouche's Secret Police in a comfortable but very closely gaurded and severely restricted exile in France. The title of Emperor was abolished with Ferdinand reduced to the rank of King and the size of his army reduced to no more than 80 000 men. A crippling program of "War Reparations was further imposed upon Austria which was required to join Napoleon's Continental System.

Napoleon now divorced Empress Josephine in favour of marriage to the '18-year-old Austrian Princess Marie Louise in 1810. With the old Austrian foe completely crushed, the Russia alliance apparently secure, Napoleon could now turn his attention to the Spanish Peninsular and, of course, to the production of an heir.
 
On 12 July 1809 Napoleon smashed the main Austrian field army commanded by Archduke Charles at the Battle of Znaim. Having refused to even grant an audiance to Austrian negotiators concentrating Marmont's, Massena's, Davout's, Oudinot's Corps plus the Reserve heavy cavalry and the Imperial Gaurd under his own command on the battlefield.Archduke Charles, having been pinned in place during the fighting of 11 July had no option other than to fight on the 12th. Napoleon won the most brilliant victory of his career, recognized by military historians as greater than Austerlitz, Jena and Friedland. Davou and Oudinot smashed the Austrian left while Marmont and Massena pinned the Austrian center and right. By late afternoon ArchdukeCharles was surrounded with his army's back to the River Thaya. Shortly after 5.30PM Napoleon orderede a ceasefire and dispatched plenipotentiaries to the Archduke Charles demanding his surrender and that of his army. Charles had no option but to comply/ By 7PM the entire Austrian army began laying down their arms on the field of battle.

With the main field army destroyed apart from a few scattered forces in Hungary, Poland and Bohemia Emperor Francis II had no option other than to accept whatever terms Napoleon cared to dictate. Those terms were harsh, even more so than Napoleon's treatment of Prussia at the end of the War of the Fourth Coalition. Under the Treaty of Schonbrunn, signed on August 24 the Hapsburg Empire was dismembered and broken up. Davout was made Prince of Hungary which now became a French puppet state as a reward for his excellent service during the War of 1809 though some parts of the province were annexed to Eugene's Viceroyship of Italy. A large portion of Bohemia were annexed either to Bavaria or Saxony. Hapsburg territories were reduced to a rump state of Austria and their remaining territories in Bohemia. Worse was to follow for Francis himself. He was forced to abdicate in favour of Archduke Ferdinand. Francis and those of his ministers who were considered guilty of starting the war most notably Stadion were taken under close arrest to be housed under close supervision of Fouche's Secret Police in a comfortable but very closely gaurded and severely restricted exile in France. The title of Emperor was abolished with Ferdinand reduced to the rank of King and the size of his army reduced to no more than 80 000 men. A crippling program of "War Reparations was further imposed upon Austria which was required to join Napoleon's Continental System.

Napoleon now divorced Empress Josephine in favour of marriage to the '18-year-old Austrian Princess Marie Louise in 1810. With the old Austrian foe completely crushed, the Russia alliance apparently secure, Napoleon could now turn his attention to the Spanish Peninsular and, of course, to the production of an heir.
The obvious consequences:
1. The next coalition becomes unavoidable because the “balance” in Europe is destroyed beyond the repairs. If everything else is more or less the same, then by 1812 Napoleon is worse off than in OTL (*).
2. Most probably, a massive uprising in Hungary is going to happen sooner rather than later. To start with, the Hungarians were not too enthusiastic about being separated from the Hapsburgs and, out of all possible candidates, Davout would be the least acceptable for the Hungarians due to his addiction to the harsh repressive methods. Of course, it would be crushed but this requires a serious French military presence during and after the uprising.
3. Getting back to Spain means losing more French troops. After Spain is formally subdued and Napoleon is out, the rebellion starts again.


(*) In OTL by 1812:
(a) Austria was Napoleon’s ally and held for a while the 3rd Russian army of up to 50,000 tied on the Austrian border
(b) Davout managed to raise up to 100,000 Polish troops and mobilized resources of the Eastern Germany of which he also was a governor. Now he is busy trying to keep the Magyars in line (unlike the Poles, they were neither anti-Russian nor pro-French and they definitely would not like the Davout’s administrative methods). So, Napoleon would need to maintain considerable garrisons in Hungary and would have much fewer Polish troops and more problems with building up logistics needed for the Russian campaign.
 
The obvious consequences:
1. The next coalition becomes unavoidable because the “balance” in Europe is destroyed beyond the repairs. If everything else is more or less the same, then by 1812 Napoleon is worse off than in OTL (*).
2. Most probably, a massive uprising in Hungary is going to happen sooner rather than later. To start with, the Hungarians were not too enthusiastic about being separated from the Hapsburgs and, out of all possible candidates, Davout would be the least acceptable for the Hungarians due to his addiction to the harsh repressive methods. Of course, it would be crushed but this requires a serious French military presence during and after the uprising.
3. Getting back to Spain means losing more French troops. After Spain is formally subdued and Napoleon is out, the rebellion starts again.


(*) In OTL by 1812:
(a) Austria was Napoleon’s ally and held for a while the 3rd Russian army of up to 50,000 tied on the Austrian border
(b) Davout managed to raise up to 100,000 Polish troops and mobilized resources of the Eastern Germany of which he also was a governor. Now he is busy trying to keep the Magyars in line (unlike the Poles, they were neither anti-Russian nor pro-French and they definitely would not like the Davout’s administrative methods). So, Napoleon would need to maintain considerable garrisons in Hungary and would have much fewer Polish troops and more problems with building up logistics needed for the Russian campaign.
- Perhaps Bernadotte would be a better choice for Hungary?

- The idea that the insurgency in Spain can't be quelled is a myth. There were a couple Marshals that were able to effectively rule over their respective occupation zones. All you have to do is contain or defeat Wellington.
 
I don't understand why Nappy would marry Marie-Louise after completely destroying the Habsburgs like that? What does he gain from marrying into a dynasty he just made irrelevant?

Also I'm usually more optimistic about Napoleon's options than alexmilman, but I have to agree that such a peace treaty won't be imposed by Nap ITTL. Hungary is only getting independent if they revolt on their own (like the Poles) and ITTL Napoleon would not want to create a second Spain.
 
- Perhaps Bernadotte would be a better choice for Hungary?

Pretty much anybody would be better than Davout but “better” does not mean a plausible scenario. Standard Napoleonic policies for the vassal territories involved money squeezing and request to maintain the French garrisons at the local expense (extortions conducted by the French commanders for their personal benefit would go on the top). Even in the best case scenario, why would Hungarians like the occupation?

- The idea that the insurgency in Spain can't be quelled is a myth. There were a couple Marshals that were able to effectively rule over their respective occupation zones. All you have to do is contain or defeat Wellington.
With the few exceptions, most of the countryside kept being controlled by the guerrilla bands well before Wellington came into the picture. His defeat would mean little in this context: Napoleon could crush him and the Spanish regular army but he could not implement an effective policing of most of the Spanish territory.

Of course, it can be argued (as you did) that if Napoleon had much more commanders like Suchet, who managed to keep Aragon quiet by wise administration, then sooner or later the whole Spain could be pacified. But the problem is that he did not have enough of them and that his own (and typical for his subordinates) approach was just applying more of a brutal force. Which, together with the endemic looting, was producing results opposite to the desired.
 
- Perhaps Bernadotte would be a better choice for Hungary?

- The idea that the insurgency in Spain can't be quelled is a myth. There were a couple Marshals that were able to effectively rule over their respective occupation zones. All you have to do is contain or defeat Wellington.
Bernadotte was fired on the field of battle at Wagram fr the rout of the Saxon corps. He will still get Sweden. Davout gets 'hungary because he is tough
 
The #battle of Znaim is the POD.. The 1909 campaign goes exactly as it did up to 10/11 July . Napoleon decides to crush Archduke Xhr;es and therefore refuses to meet with the Austrian peace delegation he was negotiating with during the Battle of Xnaim IOTL in favour of a decisive military victory. Wagram, while a French victory was far from decisive JohnGill The Battle of |naim (2020) argues that only the armistice saved the Austrian army from destruction. ITTL Napoleon takes a decision to crush Archduke Charles and the main Austrian army. He knows that the Austrians were seeking terms and, as several generals advizrd, decides to win the decisive military victory considered to be there for the taking
I don't understand why Nappy would marry Marie-Louise after completely destroying the Habsburgs like that? What does he gain from marrying into a dynasty he just made irrelevant?

Also I'm usually more optimistic about Napoleon's options than alexmilman, but I have to agree that such a peace treaty won't be imposed by Nap ITTL. Hungary is only getting independent if they revolt on their own (like the Poles) and ITTL Napoleon would not want to create a second Spain.
Austria was defeated but Napoleon still does not want to expunge the Hapsburgs as a dynasty or Austria as a power. He does want to punish them severely for frequent wars against France so he reduces them to the status of a second rate power, much as was the case with Prussia. The treatment of Austria is based onn the treatment of Prussia and upon the treatment of the Spanish bourbons.

As for Marie Louise, Napoleon still needs an heir and he wants to somewhat conciliate the Hapsburg rum state, broken though they are
 
The obvious consequences:
1. The next coalition becomes unavoidable because the “balance” in Europe is destroyed beyond the repairs. If everything else is more or less the same, then by 1812 Napoleon is worse off than in OTL (*).
2. Most probably, a massive uprising in Hungary is going to happen sooner rather than later. To start with, the Hungarians were not too enthusiastic about being separated from the Hapsburgs and, out of all possible candidates, Davout would be the least acceptable for the Hungarians due to his addiction to the harsh repressive methods. Of course, it would be crushed but this requires a serious French military presence during and after the uprising.
3. Getting back to Spain means losing more French troops. After Spain is formally subdued and Napoleon is out, the rebellion starts again.


(*) In OTL by 1812:
(a) Austria was Napoleon’s ally and held for a while the 3rd Russian army of up to 50,000 tied on the Austrian border
(b) Davout managed to raise up to 100,000 Polish troops and mobilized resources of the Eastern Germany of which he also was a governor. Now he is busy trying to keep the Magyars in line (unlike the Poles, they were neither anti-Russian nor pro-French and they definitely would not like the Davout’s administrative methods). So, Napoleon would need to maintain considerable garrisons in Hungary and would have much fewer Polish troops and more problems with building up logistics needed for the Russian campaign.
Yes the 1812 War with Russia is still going to happen for the same reasons as OTL. If it goes as it did IOTL 1813 Befreiungskriege is going to be interesting/ Davout's harsh rule will be deeply unpopular in Hungary The first consequences of the Austrian defeat are going to be felt in Spain. Napoleon might well consider going to Spain for a second campaign but there will be growing tensions with Russia....
 
Bernadotte was fired on the field of battle at Wagram fr the rout of the Saxon corps. He will still get Sweden. Davout gets 'hungary because he is tough
Bernadotte was not fired on the battlefield of Wagram and actually was not “fired” even after his post-battle address to the Saxon troops which infuriated Napoleon: after the battle he tendered his resignation as a protest against detaching division o Dupas from his corps immediately prior to the battle without informing him. The legend about the whole episode was propagated, IIRC, by Marbot in a direct contradiction to the known facts (to which Marbot rarely paid attention).

As for Davout, he was, indeed, “tough” and this is exactly why such an appointment would be a terrible idea. Unlike the Duchy, Hungary did not suffer from pro-Napoleonic hysteria and “toughness” would require a very considerable French military presence in the country. Which, taking into an account standard practices of the Napoleonic occupation, was going to generate a lot of ill feelings. So, instead of having all OTL Polish troops (without Davout army of the Duchy would be noticeably smaller) and the Austrians, in 1812 Napoleon would have to leave a considerable French force garrisoning Hungary to prevent a rebellion.
 
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Bernadotte was not fired on the battlefield of Wagram and actually was not “fired” even after his post-battle address to the Saxon troops which infuriated Napoleon: after the battle he tendered his resignation as a protest against detaching division o Dupas from his corps immediately prior to the battle without informing him. The legend about the whole episode was propagated, IIRC, by Marbot in a direct contradiction to the known facts (to which Marbot rarely paid attention).

As for Davout, he was, indeed, “tough” and this is exactly why such an appointment would be a terrible idea. Unlike the Duchy, Hungary did not suffer from pro-Napoleonic hysteria and “toughness” would require a very considerable French military presence in the country. Which, taking into an account standard practices of the Napoleonic occupation, was going to generate a lot of ill feelings. So, instead of having all OTL Polish troops (without Davout army of the Duchy would be noticeably smaller) and the Austrians, in 1812 Napoleon would have to leave a considerable French force garrisoning Hungary to prevent a rebellion.
Accordinfg to some sources he was but this is not really very important forTTL
 
Bernadotte was not fired on the battlefield of Wagram and actually was not “fired” even after his post-battle address to the Saxon troops which infuriated Napoleon: after the battle he tendered his resignation as a protest against detaching division o Dupas from his corps immediately prior to the battle without informing him. The legend about the whole episode was propagated, IIRC, by Marbot in a direct contradiction to the known facts (to which Marbot rarely paid attention).

As for Davout, he was, indeed, “tough” and this is exactly why such an appointment would be a terrible idea. Unlike the Duchy, Hungary did not suffer from pro-Napoleonic hysteria and “toughness” would require a very considerable French military presence in the country. Which, taking into an account standard practices of the Napoleonic occupation, was going to generate a lot of ill feelings. So, instead of having all OTL Polish troops (without Davout army of the Duchy would be noticeably smaller) and the Austrians, in 1812 Napoleon would have to leave a considerable French force garrisoning Hungary to prevent a rebellion.
And it will be ITTL. His actions will make the French and the occupation very unpopular in Hungary. Davout will rule with an iron fist with, as you suggest, a strong French garrison, rather like Germany. For the most part, Davout will keep a lid on things prior to the War of 1812. That war will change much.
 
Accordinfg to some sources he was but this is not really very important forTTL
These “sources” did not bother with the common sense: how could someone fired from the service and sent to Paris be issuing an order to his former troops? How could he keep commanding the same Saxon troops after being fired? How come that there is no documented trace of the alleged firing? I understand that the whole issue may not be relevant for your TL but this BS keeps popping up and is truly irritating. Of course, this has nothing to do with you personally.
 
Pretty much anybody would be better than Davout but “better” does not mean a plausible scenario. Standard Napoleonic policies for the vassal territories involved money squeezing and request to maintain the French garrisons at the local expense (extortions conducted by the French commanders for their personal benefit would go on the top). Even in the best case scenario, why would Hungarians like the occupation?


With the few exceptions, most of the countryside kept being controlled by the guerrilla bands well before Wellington came into the picture. His defeat would mean little in this context: Napoleon could crush him and the Spanish regular army but he could not implement an effective policing of most of the Spanish territory.

Of course, it can be argued (as you did) that if Napoleon had much more commanders like Suchet, who managed to keep Aragon quiet by wise administration, then sooner or later the whole Spain could be pacified. But the problem is that he did not have enough of them and that his own (and typical for his subordinates) approach was just applying more of a brutal force. Which, together with the endemic looting, was producing results opposite to the desired.


- Agree to a certain extent to the latter. Without British support, I don't think the insurgency can last forever.

- As for the former, Bernadotte, like with Sweden, would not be Nappy's lap dog. He would do what is best for Hungary, and he'd make this clear to the Hungarian nobles. Bernadotte would keep Hungary away from Napoleon's wars and focus solely on pro-Hungarian interests.

Now the question is would Napoleon allow this, and the answer is probably doubtful.
 
because under his esteemed command the Saxon corps routed twice at Wagram.; Anyway it is not important to the timeline/ Beradotte still becomes King of Swedan
 
- Agree to a certain extent to the latter. Without British support, I don't think the insurgency can last forever.

- As for the former, Bernadotte, like with Sweden, would not be Nappy's lap dog. He would do what is best for Hungary, and he'd make this clear to the Hungarian nobles. Bernadotte would keep Hungary away from Napoleon's wars and focus solely on pro-Hungarian interests.

Now the question is would Napoleon allow this, and the answer is probably doubtful.
Davout gets Hungary and a crown as a reward for his performance in 1809 and before. His corps was a key to winning Wagram and, more importantly for a decisive role at Znaim . It was his corps that broke Charles's right flank permitting the encirclement of Archduke Charles# army who were trapped between the French and the River Thaya. It was Davout's corps which cut off the Austrian's only line of retreat. In fact Davou may receive another title, Duke of Znaim at Napoleon's coming wedding to Marie Loiuise. I doubt the poor girl will be very happy about this but there isn't a lot she can do
 
- Agree to a certain extent to the latter. Without British support, I don't think the insurgency can last forever.

“Forever” is a big word. We are talking about few years.
- As for the former, Bernadotte, like with Sweden, would not be Nappy's lap dog. He would do what is best for Hungary, and he'd make this clear to the Hungarian nobles. Bernadotte would keep Hungary away from Napoleon's wars and focus solely on pro-Hungarian interests.
Now the question is would Napoleon allow this, and the answer is probably doubtful.

Quite agree with all of the above. If Bernadotte is just Napoleon’s administrator and Hungary is under French occupation then there is absolutely no way for him to stay uninvolved. While he was a French marshal he was loyal to Napoleon even if he was not in a complete agreement with his policies.
Swedish scenario is unlikely: as a conquered country Hungary would hardly be allowed a courtesy of choosing its own monarch and, anyway, Bernadotte was not well-known there. Even as a monarch (and not a French citizen anymore), Bernadotte would have a hard time keeping the country out of the Napoleonic adventures by the obvious geographic reasons: Sweden had Russia as a barrier but Hungary wads exposed.
 
because under his esteemed command the Saxon corps routed twice at Wagram.; Anyway it is not important to the timeline/ Beradotte still becomes King of Swedan
His corps at Wagram consisted of 2 ill-prepared Saxon infantry divisions and the French division of Dupas. During the night the Saxon divisions had been repelling attacks of the superior Austrian forces. “At a critical moment he ordered Dupas forward to his support; the latter replied that he had orders from the emperor to remain where he was. Having been badly mauled, and fully exposed ahead of the main French line, IX Corps withdrew from the village of Aderklaa against Napoleon's orders.” That’s the 1st “routing”. On the 2nd day leftovers of the Saxon divisions (6,000) had been attacked by 2 Austrian corps and retreated in disorder (the 2nd rout). However, they rallied and kept fighting. The Saxon losses were so high that the corps had been reformed into a single division. The French troops also had been fleeing during that battle but did Napoleon criticize Massena? The whole brouhaha was about Bernadotte’s order of the day praising the Saxons for their bravery (fighting with at least 50% losses against much stronger opponent surely deserves some praise): only Nappy could praise the troops. Not too much later the story had been repeated with Bernadotte’s address to the troops engaged in Walchern campaign. So the problem was not “esteemed command” but an ongoing (from the much earlier times) clash of the personalities. As in the previous cases, it did not last long and even before the Swedish opportunity they were again on the good terms and, after refusing to take command of the army in Catalonia, Bernadotte was offered and accepted the general government of the Roman states.

This is actually relevant because the Swedes would not consider an obvious nincompoop who is also at odds with Napoleon: while formally being neutral (not to offend Alexander), Napoleon was asked for approval of the Swedish candidate.
 
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His corps at Wagram consisted of 2 ill-prepared Saxon infantry divisions and the French division of Dupas. During the night the Saxon divisions had been repelling attacks of the superior Austrian forces. “At a critical moment he ordered Dupas forward to his support; the latter replied that he had orders from the emperor to remain where he was. Having been badly mauled, and fully exposed ahead of the main French line, IX Corps withdrew from the village of Aderklaa against Napoleon's orders.” That’s the 1st “routing”. On the 2nd day leftovers of the Saxon divisions (6,000) had been attacked by 2 Austrian corps and retreated in disorder (the 2nd rout). However, they rallied and kept fighting. The Saxon losses were so high that the corps had been reformed into a single division. The French troops also had been fleeing during that battle but did Napoleon criticize Massena? The whole brouhaha was about Bernadotte’s order of the day praising the Saxons for their bravery (fighting with at least 50% losses against much stronger opponent surely deserves some praise): only Nappy could praise the troops. Not too much later the story had been repeated with Bernadotte’s address to the troops engaged in Walchern campaign. So the problem was not “esteemed command” but an ongoing (from the much earlier times) clash of the personalities. As in the previous cases, it did not last long and even before the Swedish opportunity they were again on the good terms and, after refusing to take command of the army in Catalonia, Bernadotte was offered and accepted the general government of the Roman states.

This is actually relevant because the Swedes would not consider an obvious nincompoop who is also at odds with Napoleon: while formally being neutral (not to offend Alexander), Napoleon was asked for approval of the Swedish candidate.

The Saxons were not ill-prepared as such. Their doctrine was still of the linear ancien regime style (after the 1806 Prussian Army. Actually, the first rout happened during the 5 July evening assault (see for example Gill With Eagles to Glory) when the Saxons, in white uniforms became the victims of Friendly Fire. The secod and more infamous rout happened on the second day. The withdrawal from Aderklaa early on the first day is considered to have been against orders and was a further question mark against Bernadotte. He had failed in 1806 when he did not commit his corps to either Jena or Auerstadt - rather like an early d'Erlon failing to intervene at either Ligny or Quatre Bras, except without the catastrophic results of 1815. Napoleon would have regarded Bernadotte poorly after 1809 and may have seen his election as King of Sweden in 1810 as an opportunity to quietly get rid of him. That won't change in this timeline.

A strong theme in this timeline is actually going to be Austria, military reforms after 1809 and the changes to the 812 - 1814 War of the 6th Coalition
 
- Agree to a certain extent to the latter. Without British support, I don't think the insurgency can last forever.

- As for the former, Bernadotte, like with Sweden, would not be Nappy's lap dog. He would do what is best for Hungary, and he'd make this clear to the Hungarian nobles. Bernadotte would keep Hungary away from Napoleon's wars and focus solely on pro-Hungarian interests.

Now the question is would Napoleon allow this, and the answer is probably doubtful.
Bernadotte will still go to Sweden as will be seen in the upcoming 1810 posts. It is Davout who goes to Hungary as Prince of the new Napoleonic Successor State. Hungary has no choice in this matter. Napoleon imposes Davout as Prince of Hungary rather like other marshals, generals and Bonaparte family members were imposed on various newly created or already existing states, for example, Jerome (Westphalia), Josep (Spain), Eugene (Italy) By having Davout created Prince of Hungary I am following Napoleonic precedent. Davout will rule harshly but he will also bring Napoleonic administrative and economic reforms. His harsh methods will not make him popular with the Hungarians
 
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