WI: Imperial Germany does not attempt to compete with Royal Navy

TDM

Kicked
Are people realy asking how the British fleet was a danger to Germany that needed to be countered? Really?
Ok how about this. Germany LOST WW1 its empire and it emperer because of the Royal Navy. You can blame anything else you want but the Royal Navy is the single biggest factor. Its blockade destroyed the economy and starved the heck out of Germany, And it eliminated any chance of Germany keeping an ok relationship with the US and eliminated any dealing with South America.
So if anything WW1 indicastes that Germany needed a bigger fleet then it built.

And yes most empires are not exactly nice. But in a lot of the books and shows on WW1 (often created by or with “advice from”. Britons, GB is often portrayed as the sweet inocent country that got dragged into the war against the evil empire when it dastardly invaded poor little Belgem.
And that the Nasty Wasty Germens were building up a huge war fleet soly in order to attack the Innocent BG because what other possible reason would Germany have to build a fleet when GB was making the oceans of the world safe for comerce.

Well go ask the Boars how nice those folks from GB were….

And yes a lot of other countries have done just as bad but the pretence that WW1 was 100% Germanys fault is rediculus. And the idea that GB was making the world safe for democracy against the evil dictatorship of Germany is even more rediculas.

And while the fleet build up was a large reason GB wanted to go to war the reality is GB thought that with its blockade and with the French and Russians that the war would end in there favor and soon so they wanted to stick their fingers into the ontental pie when it was time to shuffle the boarders. It didnt work out so well for them. But the truth is pretty much every government in WW1 got what it deserved to one degree or another. And only the citesens who were sold a bill of goods are truly innocent in that mess. Even the US was frankly getting involved not because Germany was evil and needed to be defeated (a VERY valid argument in the next world war) but because it was good for a bunch of big businesses and rich folk. And Frankly of the major powers the US was probably closest to being innocent in that ware, and they wernt inocent at all so go figure.
France no more cared about some pissant Balkan state then it cared about Napa Vally Vinyards. But it was a great chance yo get even for the
last time Germany invaded. AH was more interested in using the death of its royals as an escuse to go to war. Russia was trying to gain influance in the Balkans and at the same time avoid or head off internal problems (kind if like an unhapoy couple having a kid to save a marriage) And so on and so forth. And this was not the first ytime any of these counties tried this kind of thing, So there were no virgins in that bed. But GB does a very good (and very annoying ) job of pretending that they were the inocent party just put yo protect the world. Hell the US dosent do as good a job selling its participation in WW2 as GB does with WW1.

I agree with a lot of your points re the practicalities of Navies and GB's issues with naval challenges not being 100% righteous (although as pointed out earlier a German defensive fleet to stop the RN from blockading it would have looked somewhat different to the one they built)

But if GB saw such a golden opportunity for them by going to war why was it they were leading attempts to broker a peace deal and conference before it all kicks off?

So no matter what Germany does (short of complete surrender) GB is still going alie with Russia and France and when it comes to entering WW1 GB will do whatever it tginks is best for GB.
Yes because Germany and AH dominating Europe is not what's best for GB, but it also not what's best for lot of other people as well. This doesn't make the British inherently noble here, but it doesn't make them what you describe either.


And fleet or no fleet anything Germany does is hpgoing to have little effect.

Not invading Belgium, not giving AH carte blanche, Germany has plenty of options here other than surrender


If anything the weaker Germany is the more likly GB is to go to war as they were looking at thecpolitical opritunities and costs not if Germany was evil or whatever.
Only in abstract what doe British actually gain by going on a aggressive war against Germany? It doesn't help them with any of their goals really. This whole Germany best declare war before Britain declares war is pretty odd



There seems to be a temptation to "both sides" WW1 simply because Germany wasn't controlled by the Nazis as per WW2, but the reality is AH drove and Germany enabled the situation, Pretty much every other major power reacts to them doing so.
 
There seems to be a temptation to "both sides" WW1 simply because Germany wasn't controlled by the Nazis as per WW2, but the reality is AH drove and Germany enabled the situation, Pretty much every other major power reacts to them doing so.

Germany and Austria-Hungary were responsible for the outbreak of WWI - no question about that. But let's not conveniently forget that Russia decided to back Serbia with whom it had no alliance treaty and which state was strongly entangled with terrorist elements. Or that France and especially Poincaré gave Russia a very similar blank checque in regards of the Balkans as Austria got from Germany. Both of them also completely failed to deliver an ultimatum or at least a warning to either Austria or Germany that any agressive action against Serbia was a casus belli for them. So as I see it Russia and France - not to mention Serbia who started the whole mess - are too fully responsible for the events.

I also don't see anything of Germany and A-H dominating the continent. Actually the opposite was true: Germany opted for war because the balance of power was changing and not to their favour.

On the UK side Grey could have handled the situation much better and maybe avoided the conflict - however failing to clean up the mess the others created does not make the UK responsible. Though there are more questionable moments like when Churchill gave ships on the Mediterranean order to attack the german ships there days before the british declaration of war.
 

TDM

Kicked
Germany and Austria-Hungary were responsible for the outbreak of WWI - no question about that. But let's not conveniently forget that Russia decided to back Serbia with whom it had no alliance treaty and which state was strongly entangled with terrorist elements.

We've had this debate before, Russia had been backing Serbia and promoting pan-Slavism for a while, it's only a surprise if you ignore decades of history in the area. However ignoring decades of history in the area also allows one to ignore the fact hat AH was also making plenty of it's own moves in the area since the decline of the ottomans


Or that France and especially Poincaré gave Russia a very similar blank checque in regards of the Balkans as Austria got from Germany.

Only Germany's blank cheque was to initiate's AH action that gets the whole thing going. Remember the whole point about Germany getting pissed of with AH's delay in their action against Serbia while international sympathy for AH was at its highest and a fait acompli most possible. Frances and Russia's was a previously agreed mutual defence agreement. Now that treaty had changed in nature to include the "Balkan Inception Scenario", but thet wasn't new in 1914 and didn't come out of the blue in 1911-12 but rather in response to the interested parties messing about in the Balkans.


Both of them also completely failed to deliver an ultimatum or at least a warning to either Austria or Germany that any agressive action against Serbia was a casus belli for them.

Quite simply that is rubbish, and 5 seconds of looking at the July crisis timeline well tell you that


also how does France both give Russia blank cheque against Germany/AH but at the same time not make it's feelings known to Germany?

So as I see it Russia and France - not to mention Serbia who started the whole mess - are too fully responsible for the events.

I also don't see anything of Germany and A-H dominating the continent.

Germany and AH defeating France, & Russia would be them dominating the continent


Actually the opposite was true: Germany opted for war because the balance of power was changing and not to their favour.

See above for what dominating means here

But If you mean democratic institutions were going to make it harder for them to declare war unilaterally and that Russia was increasing it's industrialisation yes but well too bad. The first is an internal issue (issue depending on you POV) and the second? What we're going keep Russia locking into the C18th to make the Germans feel powerful?

On the UK side Grey could have handled the situation much better and maybe avoided the conflict

what like offering to to mediate peace negations, promoting talks etc, not fulfilling it's treaty obligations to Belgium?


- however failing to clean up the mess the others created does not make the UK responsible.

True

Though there are more questionable moments like when Churchill gave ships on the Mediterranean order to attack the german ships there days before the british declaration of war.

All ships in the Med had their general engagement orders prior to conflict starting, it was still contingent on conflict starting
 
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Maybe i wasnt as clear as i could have been but i think a large part of GB going to war but having tried to stop/prevent the war is that GB didnt want Russia and France to win a war and then dictate the peace and what ever territorial rearrangements that come from that (or anyone else for that matter) So in order to get a “say” and a “share of the spoils”. GB had to have a stake in the game. So when it became obvious the war WAS going to happen GB had two options. Stay out and get nothing and have no say in the peace treaty when the war ends. Or join the war and get something for it. and help dictate terms after the war ends. (obviously whatever side they join would win… :) ).

And as for the Germany fleet composition. I NEVER said the fleet was simply to protect the German coast. GB used its fleet to bully folks and the whole mess in Africa was enough to show other counties that GB and the Royal Navy were able and willing to interfere with other countries and if you didnt want to have GB telling you what to do ment that you very well had to “deal” with the Royal Navy. Germany had this in Affrica and the in WW1 (and WW2 for that matter). So Germany was trying to build a Fleet to counter the Royal navy.
So lets not pretend that Germany building a fleet was an un justified provocation of GB by Germany. GB had spent over a century throwing its weight around and bashing folks over the head with the Royal Navy. It was not just a fleet to keep the Home Islands safe and it wasn't used that way. and I am not saying GB should have done differently, But i am saying that GB called the tune and thus had to pay the piper.
So it was well within GBs “right” do build a fleet and use it to its advantage and it was Well within Germanys right to get upset with the bullying and to build a fleet to try and counter that.

As for the war itself. I don't understand why Russia (and France abd GB) standing up for its friend is a good guy but Germany stsmding up for its friend is a bad guy. Frankly EVERY Major involved in WW1 had the chance not to be (well with one or two exceptions) and they all share the responsibility.

So i think GB was not the inocent party that many authors try to make you believe they were,I don't think Germany was any more (or less) evil then anyone else in WW1, I don't think Germany was responsible for stating the war and that the blame falls on everyone, I think. that GB is anything BUT innocent. They didnt have yo get involved, the WANTED to get involved (much like the US later in the war) And I dont think that the German Fleet was significant enough that even without it GB would have stayed out of the war. Now dont get me wrong it is Possible to keep GB out of the war but not though any action on Germanys part. but buy changing internal politics inside GB.
 
the Brits are against anyone that could be a continental hegemon.

And we tend to dislike any foreign chaps who think they own the waves. Britannia owns them.

Simply by building a fleet of any size that could access the high seas ( and therefore interrupt trade with the Empire) the Germans became a threat to Britain. At the time under review this was not acceptable.
 
We've had this debate before, Russia had been backing Serbia and promoting pan-Slavism for a while, it's only a surprise if you ignore decades of history in the area. However ignoring decades of history in the area also allows one to ignore the fact hat AH was also making plenty of it's own moves in the area since the decline of the ottomans

If it was so evident for everyone that attacking Serbia means war that why was it that Austria started mobilization with the only against Serbia war plan? Im not saying that the austrians werent idiots for doing that but the point is: It was far from evident to everyone that the Austrian dow on Serbia means WWI.

Only Germany's bank cheque was to initiate's AH action that's the whole thing going. Remember the whole point about Germany getting pissed of with AH's delay in their action against Serbia while international sympathy for AH was at its highest and a failt acompli most possible. Frances and Russia's was a previously agreed mutual defence agreement. Now that treaty had changed in nature to include the "Balkan Inception Scenario", but wasn't new in 1914 and didn't come out of teh blue in 1911-12 but rether in response to the interested parties messing about in teh Balkans.
It initated a Balkan wars between Serbia and A-H. That it could turn in to a world war required that the french backed Russia fully from the get go and made it very clear to the Russians that whatever they decide on the Balkans France is wih them.

Quiet simply that is rubbish, and 5 seconds of looking at the July crisis timeline well tell you that


also how does France both give Russia blank cheque against Germany/AH but at the same time not make it's feelings known to Germany?
...basic logic: telling Russia it has unconditional french support in the crisis is not the same as telling the germans that Russia has unconditioned french support. Russia only made it's position regarding a serbian attack clear to the Germans and Austrians when they refused the german ultimatum - days after the war between Austria and Serbia started. They could have made a declaration to this effect anytime after the murder in Sarajevo and than everyone would have known what they are going towards.

Germany and AH defeating France, & Russia would be them dominating the continent
And France and Russia defeating Germany and A-H would be them dominating the continent. I dont see how thats much better for the british. For the british the best outcome would have been the avoidance of the war and the maintenance of the powerbalance - with no current hegemon.

See above for what dominating means here

But If you mean democratic institutions were going to make it harder for them to declare war unilaterally and that Russia was increasing it's industrialisation yes but well too bad. The first is an internal issue (issue depending on you POV) and the second? What we're going keep Russia locking into the C18th to make the Germans feel powerful?
Not powerful, safe. But don't get me wrong - im not saying that the german reasons for this war were valid. Just different to what you attribute them.
what like offering to to mediate peace negations, promoting talks etc, not fulfilling it's treaty obligations to Belgium?
Some of those. And additionally not lying to its own government about the commitments he made towards France - some of them he had no right to make on his own, or making it clear to the germans that attacking Belgium is a casus belli for the british but in its absence they are not obliged to get involve in the war.
 
Leaving out the Russian full mobilization against both CP powers, first?
I am going to show this for the umpteenth time but okay. Germany ordered mobilization 13 hrs before Russia did. Russia mobilised faster.
IMG_20210914_193505.jpg
 

TDM

Kicked
Leaving out the Russian full mobilization against both CP powers, first?
I think you mean the partial internal one which was done at the same time as AH and Serbia mobilising (and followed the AH ultimatum and rejection of Serbian response), not to mention that everyone involved knew the reality that Germany could order a mobilisation and be in Belgium on the same day, but it would take Russia weeks.

On top of that the weeks of Germany and AH rejecting peace overtures, and assuming everyone was just bluffing etc, and making it very clear what was about to happen

why it's almost like there was chain of events people were reacting too!?
 
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marathag

Banned
July 23, 1914 Serbia begins Mobilization after receiving the A-H Ultimatum

July 24, A-H informs France, Russia, and Britain of Serbian ultimatum at 9 AM, Churchill sends Fleet advisory notice of crisis, but not a full alert

July 25 A-H cut diplomatic ties, declares martial law and begins partial Mobilization, German Fleet ordered to return to base, Tsar studies Mobilization options

July 26, Serbia Mobilizes, A-H full Mobilization on Russian Border. French Fleet readies.

July 27, units in Morocco ordered to France, Bethmann-Hollweg rejects idea of Four Power conference

July 28, A-H declares War on Serbia, Churchill order Fleet to Scapa Flow, Tsar and Kaiser exchange telegrams. French Army advances to frontier

July 29, Russians General Mobilization order signed by the Tsar, they did not have a usable partial plan for Mobilization since 1904, but Partial Mobilization Orders were Telegraphed out to Moscow, Kazan, Kiev and Odessa, plus Fleet in Black Sea. More telegrams between Tsar and Kaiser, with German warnings.

July 30, Moltke presses for general mobilization. French Army withdraws 6 miles along entire border with Belgium, Luxembourg, and Germany. Evening of July 30, Reacting to the Austrian Navy bombarding Belgrade, Russia posts General mobilization orders for its troops and Fleet to begin on July 31

July 31, Germany demands that Russia stop Mobilization within 24 hours and declares martial law, and closes Border with France and Belgium. Belgium orders General Mobilization, as does A-H with ordering General Mobilization for men up to 50 years old. Russian Reserves are called up.

August 1, UK orders the Fleet to mobilize. France begin full mobilization to begin August 2nd, with French Order posted at 3:40pm on the 1st.
Germany order Full Mobilization at 5PM, declares war on Russia.

August 2, Russia declares War on Germany, Russian patrols advance into German territory, Germany occupies Luxembourg, German ultimatum to Belgian Government at 8 PM.
 

TDM

Kicked
If it was so evident for everyone that attacking Serbia means war that why was it that Austria started mobilization with the only against Serbia war plan? Im not saying that the austrians werent idiots for doing that but the point is: It was far from evident to everyone that the Austrian dow on Serbia means WWI.


It initated a Balkan wars between Serbia and A-H. That it could turn in to a world war required that the french backed Russia fully from the get go and made it very clear to the Russians that whatever they decide on the Balkans France is wih them.

Germany backing AH already makes it a broader European war, especially when you take into account the treaties in place between France and Russia.

And AH wouldn't have taken the steps it did without that bank cheque, and those steps will bring everyone in on a pretty obvious chain of events (well unless you assume everyone else is bluffing, which is pretty much what the German told themselves since Germany was now pretty much trapped by it commitment to AH adn AH's slow actions


...basic logic: telling Russia it has unconditional french support in the crisis is not the same as telling the germans that Russia has unconditioned french support. Russia only made it's position regarding a serbian attack clear to the Germans and Austrians when they refused the german ultimatum - days after the war between Austria and Serbia started. They could have made a declaration to this effect anytime after the murder in Sarajevo and than everyone would have known what they are going towards.

Russia made it's position clear on the 21st two days before the ultimatum and after the French visit to Russia, ...but Germany told itself it was bluff

And France and Russia defeating Germany and A-H would be them dominating the continent. I dont see how thats much better for the british. For the british the best outcome would have been the avoidance of the war and the maintenance of the powerbalance - with no current hegemon.


Yes which is why they were keen to suggest talks etc,

However while Britain would rather there wasn't a general war in Europe partly for th reasons you give, if there's going to be one it will want to be at the victors table.

Not powerful, safe. But don't get me wrong - im not saying that the german reasons for this war were valid. Just different to what you attribute them.

OK but doe Russia have to then lock itself into the C18th to continue to make Germany feel safe, and what about my point re certain groups losing their grip on power in Germany?


Some of those. And additionally not lying to its own government about the commitments he made towards France - some of them he had no right to make on his own,

Yeah that's reasonable but since it would be up to the British gov to declare war there's a limit to how much he boxed the British gov in here. Plus there is broader context


or making it clear to the germans that attacking Belgium is a casus belli for the british but in its absence they are not obliged to get involve in the war.

a moot point since the German had to go through Belgium for their clever plan to work.

But even then taking your point on that in general not invading Belgium doesn't force Britain to be neutral so it's not like the British position would ever be "if you invade Belgium we're at war, but you can do what you like outside that and we're all good".
 
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TDM

Kicked
July 23, 1914 Serbia begins Mobilization after receiving the A-H Ultimatum

July 24, A-H informs France, Russia, and Britain of Serbian ultimatum at 9 AM, Churchill sends Fleet advisory notice of crisis, but not a full alert

July 25 A-H cut diplomatic ties, declares martial law and begins partial Mobilization, German Fleet ordered to return to base, Tsar studies Mobilization options

July 26, Serbia Mobilizes, A-H full Mobilization on Russian Border. French Fleet readies.

July 27, units in Morocco ordered to France, Bethmann-Hollweg rejects idea of Four Power conference

July 28, A-H declares War on Serbia, Churchill order Fleet to Scapa Flow, Tsar and Kaiser exchange telegrams. French Army advances to frontier

July 29, Russians General Mobilization order signed by the Tsar, they did not have a usable partial plan for Mobilization since 1904, but Partial Mobilization Orders were Telegraphed out to Moscow, Kazan, Kiev and Odessa, plus Fleet in Black Sea. More telegrams between Tsar and Kaiser, with German warnings.

July 30, Moltke presses for general mobilization. French Army withdraws 6 miles along entire border with Belgium, Luxembourg, and Germany. Evening of July 30, Reacting to the Austrian Navy bombarding Belgrade, Russia posts General mobilization orders for its troops and Fleet to begin on July 31

July 31, Germany demands that Russia stop Mobilization within 24 hours and declares martial law, and closes Border with France and Belgium. Belgium orders General Mobilization, as does A-H with ordering General Mobilization for men up to 50 years old. Russian Reserves are called up.

August 1, UK orders the Fleet to mobilize. France begin full mobilization to begin August 2nd, with French Order posted at 3:40pm on the 1st.
Germany order Full Mobilization at 5PM, declares war on Russia.

August 2, Russia declares War on Germany, Russian patrols advance into German territory, Germany occupies Luxembourg, German ultimatum to Belgian Government at 8 PM.
Right so no "Russian full mobilization against both CP powers, first?"

Although I think Russia sent out partial mobilisation orders 24th/25th?
 
erhmmm ... WROONG
There were additionally two cabinet meetings on Saturday, one on Sunday (not sure atm on which day were the 2 meetings, could be vice versa) and one on Monday morning even before Edward Greays oh so known speech before the house.
There were the publication of the russian general mobilisation, the answering general mobilisation of Germany and the notorious ultimatum to Belgium (as well as the for the Brits as such even named irrelevant occupation of Luxembourg).

Whatever "description" you've read : it seems to be simply ... flawed (to be polite).
An IMHO very good despription (well sourced be numerous contemporary notes, diaries, letters of all involved british politicians) can give you this reading. It also quite clearly gives you the rather 1/4 (if even as much) to 3/4 distribution within the cabinet between "hawks" (in earnest only churchill and Grey could be named as such, Asquith was - if at all - "in" only for staying with Grey but not out og on conviction, Haldane was NOT a hawk but rather a 'wait-for-the-right-moment-AFTER-the first clashes and ... well that's it for the 'hawks' : 2 fully and 2 halfhearted at best) and "doves" (or better framed non-military-non interventionists ... the remaining 17 cabinet members IIRC) as well as the almost even split within the conservativs between non- and interventionists (against oh so often claimed 'certain pro-war-conservatives' myth intensly nursed and propagated since 3rd August 1914 continuesly until today) and the struggle within the conservative party for the position finally taken.

(Just to name a single book. There are several other writings well worth reading in addition and for details on single topics.)

Well said!

(Reminds me to finally getting around to reading Newton soon.)

British belligerency in the 1914 of our timeline was anything but a slam dunk; and as it was, it was one of the most favorable scenarios for getting Britain into a continental war in the Edwardian era. In a scenario where Germany never builds the High Seas Fleet (or at least, anything remotely as robust as th HSF of our timeline), British belligerency becomes more difficult to obtain.

I am going to indulge myself by digging up something I wrote on another WW1 thread a couple years ago here: "Too often, we operate in broad strokes when discussing the British decision-making, when it took a very particular set of developments - I would say, machinations - to get a Liberal-governed Britain to a declaration of war. There was nothing inevitable about it."

a) Asquith's cabinet was a pacifist-dominated Liberal cabinet in 1914. And when I say "pacifist," I do not mean it in a George Lansbury sense. It might be better to say "non-interventionist" for our purposes. It was probably in the neighborhood of about 15 to 5 - with the five interventionists/hawks being Grey, Churchill (at the hard end), Haldane, Asquith, and - marginally - Lloyd George. At the other end, the most opposed to war could be identified in the four Liberal ministers who resigned over the decision for war (Beauchamp, Morley, Burns, and Simon - Asquith did of course later manage to persuade Beauchamp and Simon to rescind their resignations). So it is quite remarkable that Edward Grey was able to maneuver a mostly non-interventionist Cabinet to agree to a decision that would take Britain into war, even with his unusually close relationship with Asquith to lean on.​
b) The key decisions were taken on Sunday, August 2, the date of the German ultimatum to Brussels. There were two Cabinet meetings that day: 1) one from 11:00am-2:00pm, and a second from 6:30-8:00pm. In the first, the Cabinet voted that a stance that a German naval bombardment of French Channel ports would be a trigger for war. In the second, it was also decided that a violation of Belgian neutrality would be a trigger, too. These were the conditions that the majority decided would be necessary for thm to support war, not a declaration of war itself - but even so, they provided the necessary tripwires when the time came for Kaiser Willie to trip them. Note that the prospect of the HSF cruising the Channel blowing up stuff was the first and easiest "get" for the Cabinet - not Belgian neutrality.
c) Something else noteworthy happened on Sunday, August 2, that mattered a great deal. Bonar Law and Lansdowne delivered a letter to Asquith promising "unhesitating" support for the government in any measures it sought to employ in support of the Dual Alliance. This promise was bolstered by Churchill's reading, before the Cabinet, of a letter from prominent Tory F. E. Smith saying that a canvas of his colleagues permitted him to say that "the government can rely upon the support of the Unionist party, in whatever manner that support can be most effectively given." The italics are mine. It became apparent that the prospect now loomed of a national government, one which could well be mostly Tory: a prospect that chilled Asquith, and most ministers present. This had the effect of nudging wavering ministers into the agreement to a "Belgian" formula in the evening. It acted, it seems, as a kind of unspoken threat by Asquith. This wasn't just for crass self-intrested reasons (though these can't be ruled out), but also because Asquith and his ministers mostly thought the Tories were irresponsible madmen who could not be trusted with running a war.​
d) Even so, it took the news of Belgium's refusal of the ultimatum, and German bellicosity, on the following two days to shore up the waverers - to give not just them, but the public, the cover they felt they needed to go to war for what really were other reasons - unwillingness to allow the German fleet in the Channel, and fear of Liberal government being replaced by a de facto Tory dominated government. And since the German fleet did *not* make that appearance, it really did come down to a need for Germany to violate Belgian neutrality to close the deal.​
 
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I am going to show this for the umpteenth time but okay. Germany ordered mobilization 13 hrs before Russia did. Russia mobilised faster.
View attachment 679976
I have to admit I've never came across one of this your postings so far.
However ...
There is nowhere in these excerps any indication, evidence or even proof of your claim the germans mobilized 13 hrs before russia.
If you claim such a precise number I'm sure at least you can provide source with the exact times (at least the hours) the general mobilisations were ordered in St- Petersburg as well as Berlin.
... as your citation doesn't.
Your citation spreads only indications for some interpreted moods of some involved but no evidence for your claim at all.

Every document of the time, the diaries, letters and notes of the individuals involved, the records of thepress archives, the records of the army itself as well as the several single involved staffs of armies and corps.

For (your) records :
30th August ~ 18:00 St.Petersburg time (in 1914 St.Petersburg was set by order of the Tsar at (then only) 2 hours ahead of GMT)​
Order of general mobilization issued by the army authorities​
31st August ~ 06:00 St. Petersburg time​
Order of general mobilisation publically issued, announced and placarded​
1st August ~ 17:00 CET (1 hour ahead of GMT)
Kaiser Bill signs the General Declaration, which is called out by the chauffeur driving Falkenheyn from the palace right afterwards to the waiting crowd and issued by the War Ministry across the country from about 10 minutes later onwards until 'temporarily' withdrawn by phon about half an hour after it was signed​

... I fail to see your 13 hrs aheadness of the german general mobilisation.
It must habe been about 03:00 St.Pertersburg, 02:00 Berlin and 01:00 Greenwich time then.
Any (real and not if only indications) evidence for that ?
 
... Stay out and get nothing and have no say in the peace treaty when the war ends. Or join the war and get something for it. and help dictate terms after the war ends. (obviously whatever side they join would win… :) ).
...
Or as Haldane and at some point also Asquith thought about :
Wait until ... getting in 'at the right moment'​
preferably when everybody was hanging in the ropes keenly looking for an ... ' honest' mediator ...
 
Or as Haldane and at some point also Asquith thought about :
Wait until ... getting in 'at the right moment'​
preferably when everybody was hanging in the ropes keenly looking for an ... ' honest' mediator ...

Indeed.

There's pretty solid evidence that this *was* Haldane's perspective going into the weekend. And that, all things being equal, it would have been - was - more or less the default posture of the Cabinet, until and unless it could be moved off it, which in the end it was, principally through some astute maneuvering by Grey and the implied threat of a national government with the Tories in the second Cabinet meeting on Sunday evening.

But if you can keep Britain out of the fight in its initial phase, it becomes significantly easer to continue keeping it out - at least, until it's too late for its intervention to be decisive, save possibly as your "honest mediator."

Now, imagine the mood of Asquith's cabinet in a July 1914 where Britain *hadn't* spent the last 8 years in a fierce and hugely expensive naval arms race with Germany, which a Liberal government with a pressing domestic agenda had felt forced into undertaking because an existential threat to Britain was almost universally perceived. (And maybe not least because most plausible such scenarios probably means someone other than Kaiser Wilhelm II has been reigning for those years...) For one thing, France only gets some kind of detente, and not an entente, out of Whitehall, and those secret army staff discussions for deployment of the BEF to France almost certainly won't have taken place: there's not an obvious machinery to put into motion, and that will give skeptics a leg up in asking just what Britain could do, to affect the course of affairs on land. Haldane's posture - if he is still in office here - will be even more restrained.
 
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Riain

Banned
As per usual, the WW1 thread has come down to the timing of the mobilisation orders.

Not that I'm against this, history is made in large part by key players, but I find that this crawling down a rabbit hole tends to dismiss the environment these key players were operating in. In Britain's case, with the RN already mobilised and free from the threat of invasion, the key players were free to take a few days to discuss the matter and find a convenient cassus belli. However this doesn't give them some moral high ground. They were not perusing a sheaf of mobilisation options to deal with the specific crisis at hand in the most appropriate way with the forces at their disposal; they were contemplating yes/no over the single plan to go to war with Germany on the side of France with the BEF deployed on the French left flank and the RN taking responsibility of the Channel and North Sea with the MN deployed to the Med. Thus apart from their week of discussion, the, practical limit of their splendid isolation, they were every bit as inflexible as the Germans, French and Russians and its this inflexibility that's the cross that CP war guilt is nailed on.
 
As per usual, the WW1 thread has come down to the timing of the mobilisation orders.

Not that I'm against this, history is made in large part by key players, but I find that this crawling down a rabbit hole tends to dismiss the environment these key players were operating in. In Britain's case, with the RN already mobilised and free from the threat of invasion, the key players were free to take a few days to discuss the matter and find a convenient cassus belli. However this doesn't give them some moral high ground. They were not perusing a sheaf of mobilisation options to deal with the specific crisis at hand in the most appropriate way with the forces at their disposal; they were contemplating yes/no over the single plan to go to war with Germany on the side of France with the BEF deployed on the French left flank and the RN taking responsibility of the Channel and North Sea with the MN deployed to the Med. Thus apart from their week of discussion, the, practical limit of their splendid isolation, they were every bit as inflexible as the Germans, French and Russians and its this inflexibility that's the cross that CP war guilt is nailed on.

Actually, I'm not sure I disagree much with this.

Over the previous decade, Edward Grey and his ministerial allies had done so much to create the web of this inflexibility, making it easier for him to deploy it to lock the rest of the British Cabinet into it, too, on August 2. And over the previous decade, Wilhelm II had done a great deal to make Grey's job easier.
 
P.S. My only caution about using the word "inflexibility" is that it can bend our analysis of the Great War's outbreak into some kind of inevitability.

World War II was certainly inevitable once Hitler came to power (and stayed there) because he was absolutely bent on war, and not just objectives that might unwittingly bring a war on; Churchill could natter on about an "Unnecessary War," but it became necessary and inevitable precisely because no Anglo-French leaders who shared his understanding were in power in the 1930's, nor were ever likely to be in power, because the votaries in both countries were pretty consistently pacifist up until the spring of 1939. World War I was not, however. Even the much-ballyhooed rigid war plans and interlocking alliances - which were themselves the result of certain very contingent choices - did not make the Great War, at least we know it, inevitable in the way September 1939 was.

It's true that Wilhelm II is the most obvious and most necessary player in bringing the Sarajevo drama to that end - both in how he acted during the crisis, and in the ten years before the crisis. But @Riain is right that he's far from the only important player, and far from the only one pressured by inflexible plans and lobbies.

Still, there were numerous decision points on both sides where different choices plausibly *could* have been made. And by the 1930's, even most English elites had come to bitterly rue that they hadn't been.
 
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