Medieval America Mark III

I can definitely see this being a knight in post regression America. (Credit to Shabazik over on Deviantart.)
knight_of_keuta_by_shabazik_d9iujll-pre.jpg
 
Way of the dodo. All books are painstakingly copied by hand, the two largest centers of book making are the Willamette valley and Buffalo.
Wait what about Woodblock printing? It could have easily evolved from children alphabet blocks during the regression.

Also thinking about the basic premise. Does anyone else think it would more sense for South America to parallel Medieval Europe with North America being closer to Asia?
  • USA = Imperial China (with some Rome & Mesopotamia)
  • Quebec = Korea
  • Desert = Islamic Golden Age
  • Canada = Siberian Steps
  • Caribbean = Southeast Asia & South Pacific
 
Wait what about Woodblock printing? It could have easily evolved from children alphabet blocks during the regression.

Also thinking about the basic premise. Does anyone else think it would more sense for South America to parallel Medieval Europe with North America being closer to Asia?
  • USA = Imperial China (with some Rome & Mesopotamia)
  • Quebec = Korea
  • Desert = Islamic Golden Age
  • Canada = Siberian Steps
  • Caribbean = Southeast Asia & South Pacific
I've talked in the thread in the mid 60s' pages about my pet hypothesis any post-apocalyptic/neo-de-industrialized America would be much more akin to a China than a Roman Empire - at least east of the Rockies - due to geography, governmental norms, and historical and cultural values... honestly I actually feel it'd be the rather more likely situation if anything. I'm honestly game for such a premise and I haven't spoken up on it since in the thread since it would take away from the point in this one.
 
I've talked in the thread in the mid 60s' pages about my pet hypothesis any post-apocalyptic/neo-de-industrialized America would be much more akin to a China than a Roman Empire - at least east of the Rockies - due to geography, governmental norms, and historical and cultural values... honestly I actually feel it'd be the rather more likely situation if anything. I'm honestly game for such a premise and I haven't spoken up on it since in the thread since it would take away from the point in this one.
I would definitely be up for seeing such a project playing out. There could easily be a similarly ideal to the Mandate of Heaven and Chinese Legalism forming in neo-pre industrial America. Heck considering what ever collapse was bad enough to nock things to a pre industry level of technology, even a thousand years later. There could actually be a wholly new religion where the gods are derived from American historical & folk figures.
 
I would definitely be up for seeing such a project playing out. There could easily be a similarly ideal to the Mandate of Heaven and Chinese Legalism forming in neo-pre industrial America. Heck considering what ever collapse was bad enough to nock things to a pre industry level of technology, even a thousand years later. There could actually be a wholly new religion where the gods are derived from American historical & folk figures.
I meant to reply to this and never did.

1) Geography-wise I tend to make a big deal of a united medieval America ending on the TX-Colorado River. I've begun to swung a bit to the Pecos and Nueces Rivers as borders since they themselves are not just rivers but A) ones bordering arid deserts (Chihuahuan and Wild Horse) for those sweet natural boundaries, B) Texas legally had the Nueces as a border in Hispanic times, C) many purchase/treaty proposals for a non-Rio Grande Texas from 1825-1848 had the Pecos flowing into the Sangre de Cristo Mountains as a border (also sometimes flowing into the lower Rio Grande, other times a straight line linking to the Nueces's source), D) the Tejanos who have traditionally been centered around San Antonio historically rose up with the Texians above the TX-Colorado River for a shared Texan identity (and we all know Texas has always been big on 'MURICA despite its famed regionalism), and E) *America east of the Rockies/Pecos/Nueces is almost two million square miles - 1.97 million, comparable to Rome's 117 AD height of 1.93 and all of China Proper and Han Chinese-Manchuria's 1.96... and is 2.01 if you include the Red River District from the 1818 Convention!

2) Again the Intracoastal Waterway east of the Mississippi River, the western navigable heads of that river's watershed at the 100th parallel, and flat land outside the (easily-crossed) Appalachians, with the Interstates as road paths, would do wonders for connectivity to say nothing of some surviving form of federalism be it under a republic or monarchial administration. I imagine the old Oregon Trail would make Casper the Great Plains "metropolis" and *America's westernmost, if quite isolated, major city en route to the Pacific lands.

3) Most of the current American population save *Denver is again east of the 100th meridian. I actually read 80% of the American population is located east of it, and adding in the Austin, San Antonio, and Denver metro areas bumped it to 86%. This feels vaguely in line with most of China's population living in China Proper where most ethnic Han Chinese live. This is doubly worth noting since rainfall happens primarily east of that meridian and on the west coast, and as heat waves from this year showed even "wet" areas like the Pacific Northwest can suffer from the ultimately drier climate and global warming harshly.

4) Cuba's going to be under *American protection in some form to guard the shipping in and out of New Orleans. If this *America can reach Europe, *the Maritimes will be the same. This is an *America who will focus on being a new western entrepot of a Silk Road that now extends westward with an Atlantic seaway to the Americas. No doubt the Pacific coast of the western hemisphere will trade with China via sailing north to Alaska and Russia and then cross the mountains east, but America can get East Asian goods through a long set of middlemen like Europe did, just... further on.

5) I said this once, but the 1789 Constitution at heart is fantastic for a continental-sized republic in terms of centrality vs distance and autonomy, even taking into account more modern sensibilities and legacies like racial and womens' suffrage coming into play in a neo-medieval age. I think a medieval *America that remains "republican" will be much more oligarchic (spare me witty commentary on today, people) and a lot of old ways to keep mob rule AND distance in check will return - an electoral college being powerful again in presidential plays, state legislatures electing senators amongst both their own state and Congressional, some minor property tax as a requirement to vote (probably stupidly minor, but nonetheless).... OTOH local town and city politics are probably as free as ever, and the Lower House as since 1789 be a major shaker and mover in national politics. The Presidency is also probably still powerful, an "imperial presidency" legacy being useful for any major crisis on the border needing a fast (relatively speaking) response. And who's to say if *America pulled a Rome and became a monarchy in all but name of sort if one heavily vested as a "popular" one.

6) There'll be a deep irony if the Founding Fathers got their yeoman republic after all if a literal millennia or so after independence.
 
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More thoughts, including a sadly depressing one. I won't make a big edit to my original post:

7) A Mandate of Heaven equivalent? Easily "The Will of the People" - nationalism and "freedom" combined has always been a rallying cry for Americana since time immemorial. Could be used in both republican constitutional or imperial dynastic changes alike.

8) I hesitate to add this since it seems (I assure you unintentionally) distasteful, but no timeline is a utopia: an *America focusing east of the Rockies, with a Texas even slightly shifted away from the Rio Grande if not more, is a lot more similar to the nation's original ethnic composition of "colonial-stock Anglos, Blacks, and assimilated Ethnic Whites" from colonial times to the mid-20th century and we likely will see *America return to a white supermajority in racial terms. A Pecos and Nueces border shifts away the most Mexican-acculturated, Mestizo-passing, and monolingual Hispanophone populace of Texas away and certainly all Chicanos and Latinos west of that, and the majority if not vastly so of Asian-Americans. The remaining Tejanos are white-passing as descendants of Spanish colonists and a big hee-haw can be made of them linking with Texians and American attempts to purchase Texas to the Rio Grande or Nueces with them included, Cubanos have already greatly Americanized and would only do so more in time alongside a historical origin of salvation from an American enemy, Nuyoricans willingly moved in when their island was American territory, any remaining Mexican-Americans in the vastly reduced Southwest are probably also easy to assimilate. In ruthless pragmatism, however, having everyone white-passing assimilate into a general white identity would help a ton in an even greater ethnogensis of an ethnic *American identity, similar to Han Chinese forming over the millennia or even a common Roman identity coalescing from Caracalla's 212 AD edict making all free men in the Roman Empire citizens, so these various Hispanics are now as American as Cajuns, Irish Catholics, Nordics, etc. and no one certainly thinks of those groups as non-American. Unfortunately, let's be honest, it could also lead to a possibly unintentional white supremacism... though a history of overcoming slavery in a great war and being an immigrant haven, I like to imagine, would leave SOME positive legacy even in a more dog-eat-dog, neo-medieval world, so perhaps racism is replaced by "mere" cultural chauvinism of foreign nations (black guy with an *American name speaking *American? One of us, 'Murican! Lily white dude who's Catholic and speaking *New Mexican? Be wary). This is also me just assuming lazily that whites and blacks somehow still stay racially apart from one another even with an ethnogenesis of ethnic *Americans and over centuries of technological collapse into neo-medievalism. White very well probably has it right a gradual browning happens if any true *American ethnogenesis happens since, as I said, in medieval times, culture (religion, language, names) is the great unifier and boogeymen alike than race, even taking into account American obsession with it.

Outside of all racial and ethnic concerns - even with protective natural boundaries and wonderful internal waterways/flat land aside, it's still a ton of territory remaining in neo-medieval *America and every bit shaved off no matter who's on the ground helps in keeping the rest manageable as one unit.

9) I think an American-specific branch of Christianity will crop up, perhaps as unique as the Non-Denoms in this project, but I suspect that as the extreme end of difference and any such American branch of Christianity is in effect a "national" church as "unique" as Anglicanism is to England, Lutheranism to Scandinavia, Calvinism to the Netherlands, etc. Definitely not as singularly unique as Mormonism at all. Certainly a bit of Mormon influence of a sort because 'MURICA as a chosen people is always appealing. I can also see it becoming a widespread unifier with an evolving formalized American-English, and a lot of lapsed and disparate Catholics and Protestants alike converting to it, since by now they're fully American for generations.

10) Also as always, these great big-ass universal empires and/or civilization-states worth their salt have barbarians from the north raiding them. *Canadian descendants of the Prairie provinces, Amerindian descendants, Metis descendants, some or all of the above. Pity the poor Twin Cities, Des Moines, or even Chicago in bad times....

11) American trade will be as White said, concentrated in its home hemisphere north to south because it's easier that way, but this is a world that presumably remembers the general map and rediscovers sea lanes across the oceans fast. New York a hub to Europe, New Orleans to South America, Chicago a hub to the west and north, etc. etc. Looking up Amerindian trade routes with, as always, the Intracoastal Waterway and Interstates helps figure out a non-industrialized *America's trade routes.

12) I'm going to laugh if Washington remains capital somehow, but Cincinnati is legitimately your best bet if you move a capital inland. Smack in the middle of the Ohio, canals connecting it to the Great Lakes, roads and canals connecting it east, as the first American boomtown pre-railroads it'll likely reclaim that spot alongside being smack in the middle of Ohioan farmland, Kentucky pastures, Appalachian mining, Plains ranching, and tons of protective buffer population everywhere. But hey, if Rome could symbolically still be THE city of the Roman Empire even when not the actual capital, let Washington keep some dignity like that, I'll always buck up for it.

(Washington would still be a great crossroads city of its own accord north-south and to the west, if not on New York's level, due to the C-and-O Canal...maybe swipe the Maryland state capital status from Annapolis... it'll be just fine in natural terms, actually)

13) I can see Federalist and Neoclassical architecture, or some combo and/or neo-medieval derivative of them, becoming the "stereotypical" architecture of a medieval *America like classical architecture in Rome and pagodas and such for China. Hopefully more colorful buildings if they lean to more neoclassical, at least. Color those building caps and pillars. It's okay to!
 
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More thoughts, including a sadly depressing one. I won't make a big edit to my original post:

7) A Mandate of Heaven equivalent? Easily "The Will of the People" - nationalism and "freedom" combined has always been a rallying cry for Americana since time immemorial. Could be used in both republican constitutional or imperial dynastic changes alike.
Personally I was thinking of "Mantle of Columbia" for the official term of the Mandate of Heaven analogue in a Medieval America.

9) I think an American-specific branch of Christianity will crop up, perhaps as unique as the Non-Denoms in this project, but I suspect that as the extreme end and any such American branch of Christianity is in effect a "national" church as "unique" as Anglicanism is to England, Lutheranism to Scandinavia, Calvinism to the Netherlands, etc. Certainly Mormon influence of a sort because 'MURICA as a chosen people is always appealing. I can also see it becoming a widespread unifier with an evolving formalized American-English, and a lot of lapsed and disparate Catholics and Protestants alike converting to it, since by now they're fully American for generations.
Honestly considering something happening that's so apocalyptic that even a thousand years later people are still living a antiquity-Medieval lifestyle a thousand years later. I can see religion in America having warped into something that is very much not Christianity. Most likely a diest or even polytheistic religion descended from Christianity but very much isn't.
 
Personally I was thinking of "Mantle of Columbia" for the official term of the Mandate of Heaven analogue in a Medieval America.


Honestly considering something happening that's so apocalyptic that even a thousand years later people are still living a antiquity-Medieval lifestyle a thousand years later. I can see religion in America having warped into something that is very much not Christianity. Most likely a diest or even polytheistic religion descended from Christianity but very much isn't.
Makes sense to both of them, and I happily concede for worldbuilding purposes since I'm exceedingly conservative on butterflies and rely on others to be more creative in that sense. George Washington as a Romulus in the making I could easily see happening.
 
Makes sense to both of them, and I happily concede for worldbuilding purposes since I'm exceedingly conservative on butterflies and rely on others to be more creative in that sense. George Washington as a Romulus in the making I could easily see happening.
Nikola Tesla can easily be warped into a diety figure. Primarily around science and technology but also immigrants, tying in nicely with the more uniquely American aspects of the scenario.
 
Timeline/Historiographical Note:

In his narrative post "A First Encounter," the banned @tehskyman has Christian/Nondenominational crusaders doing battle with Voodoo elephant-riders in Natchez. However, in @Richard Drummond's excellent post "A second draft history of the Caribbean," it is established that the 'voudonization' of Louisiana only occurred some time in the 2400-2600s following the successes of the Haitian thalassocracy. tehskyman's post shows Voodoo presence in the very early 24th century. A later voudonization strikes me as far more plausible and had a lot more thought put into it, so I am going to say that tehskyman's post (which cannot be edited since his ban) needs to be reposted with this minor fact accounted for.

Further, I just want to mention that I certainly need to take a second look at my old Louisiana post, since the region has developed so much since then and to be honest I really didn't put much thought into it.
 
Timeline/Historiographical Note:

In his narrative post "A First Encounter," the banned @tehskyman has Christian/Nondenominational crusaders doing battle with Voodoo elephant-riders in Natchez. However, in @Richard Drummond's excellent post "A second draft history of the Caribbean," it is established that the 'voudonization' of Louisiana only occurred some time in the 2400-2600s following the successes of the Haitian thalassocracy. tehskyman's post shows Voodoo presence in the very early 24th century. A later voudonization strikes me as far more plausible and had a lot more thought put into it, so I am going to say that tehskyman's post (which cannot be edited since his ban) needs to be reposted with this minor fact accounted for.

Further, I just want to mention that I certainly need to take a second look at my old Louisiana post, since the region has developed so much since then and to be honest I really didn't put much thought into it.
Thank you for your kind words. I see no reason why Tehskyman's post must be disregarded or altered. I personally image Louisiana as having grown a Voodoo population before the 2400s but they were a mere minority and thus they had to deal with Crusaders. Yet, after the Haitian thalassocracy, the Voodoos were able to properly assert themselves in Louisiana (with help from the Haitians who promoted the local Voodoo population) and eventually become a majority in future Louisiana's territories.

I must say we cannot forget the Douga? in an excellent post many pages back. I personally would prefer the Haitian thalassocracy I mentioned be replaced with them.
 
Thank you for your kind words. I see no reason why Tehskyman's post must be disregarded or altered. I personally image Louisiana as having grown a Voodoo population before the 2400s but they were a mere minority and thus they had to deal with Crusaders. Yet, after the Haitian thalassocracy, the Voodoos were able to properly assert themselves in Louisiana (with help from the Haitians who promoted the local Voodoo population) and eventually become a majority in future Louisiana's territories.

I must say we cannot forget the Douga? in an excellent post many pages back. I personally would prefer the Haitian thalassocracy I mentioned be replaced with them.
Well the tenor of the post seems to be that the Voodoo are winning, and it also seems odd for crusades and such a well-ingrained notion of Nondenominationalism existing at that point. Plus it makes sense that elephants would be a later development - how would a minority of put upon heretics have the ability to import elephants from distant South America and successfully employ them in war? Indeed, would such a sophisticated mahout culture even develop in South America in only 3 centuries? the 25th-27th century seems like a more generous timeframe for that culture to develop in South America, and it would make a lot of sense for the insanely rich Voodoo Thalassocracy (Haitian or not) to be the ones with the means and determination to introduce them to the bayou.
 
How would be the new cuisines of medieval America looked like, and where to acquire the spices like pepper, cinnamon and turmeric?
 
How would be the new cuisines of medieval America looked like, and where to acquire the spices like pepper, cinnamon and turmeric?
Cuisine varies by region, of course, so it's difficult to say what it would look like. Corn and potatoes are obviously present in the diets where they were not in the real Middle Ages. Access to sugar cane is probably much easier for Medieval Americans than it would be for Medieval Europeans, reducing reliance on honey and other ersatz sweeteners, but still quite rare of course. Spices in general are probably a little bit easier to come by, but still quite expensive the further north you get. Meat of course is less common than it is today, a lot more sausages, smoked meats and jerkies. Fried chicken is probably very common fare. Access to beef is probably better on the whole, since a significant portion of the continent (the Great Plains) is, unlike the Eurasian Steppe, largely devoted to the production and exportation of beef.
 
Cuisine varies by region, of course, so it's difficult to say what it would look like. Corn and potatoes are obviously present in the diets where they were not in the real Middle Ages. Access to sugar cane is probably much easier for Medieval Americans than it would be for Medieval Europeans, reducing reliance on honey and other ersatz sweeteners, but still quite rare of course. Spices in general are probably a little bit easier to come by, but still quite expensive the further north you get. Meat of course is less common than it is today, a lot more sausages, smoked meats and jerkies. Fried chicken is probably very common fare. Access to beef is probably better on the whole, since a significant portion of the continent (the Great Plains) is, unlike the Eurasian Steppe, largely devoted to the production and exportation of beef.
Two personal opinions:

1.I think sugar will not be scarce in new Medieval America-They have beets for sugar production.
2.Will chicken's supply enough to make chicken dishes nearly affordable like today? I am doubtful. Without factory farming, chicken is quite expensive-at least more expensive than pork and beef. Personally suggest to change to fried fish, both marine fish and freshwater fish are fine.
 
Well the tenor of the post seems to be that the Voodoo are winning, and it also seems odd for crusades and such a well-ingrained notion of Nondenominationalism existing at that point. Plus it makes sense that elephants would be a later development - how would a minority of put upon heretics have the ability to import elephants from distant South America and successfully employ them in war? Indeed, would such a sophisticated mahout culture even develop in South America in only 3 centuries? the 25th-27th century seems like a more generous timeframe for that culture to develop in South America, and it would make a lot of sense for the insanely rich Voodoo Thalassocracy (Haitian or not) to be the ones with the means and determination to introduce them to the bayou.
Those are all very legitimate points. I suppose 3 centuries would be enough time for Nondenomism and Voodooism in the region to reach the point of waging crusade against one another. Just look at Islam and Christianity. Islam was waging holy war from the get-go and within 300 years, Christianity went from some random Jewish preacher to being the faith of Roman emperors. In regards to elephants being used by the Voodoo, perhaps they initially had strong contacts within the merchant class and that's how they had the wealth and connections to import elephants although I don't have a response to how the usage of elephants would develop in South America fast enough for that. How long did it take historically for groups to adopt elephantine warfare?
 
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