WI: Bourbon Spain discovers California Gold?

[Kellan Sullivan]

"By all the documents that have been examined, it is demonstrated that the discovery dates from the year 1555 and that the discoverer was Juan Gaetano or Gaytan. The principal proof is an old manuscript chart, registered in these archives as anonymous, and in which the Sandwich Islands are laid down but which also contains a note declaring that he called them Islas de Mesa (Table Islands) There are besides other islands situated in the same latitude, but 10 degrees farther east and respectively named La Mesa, 'La Desgraciade, Olloa or Los Monges. The chart appears to be a copy of that called the chart of the Spanish Galleon, existing long before the time of Cook, and which is referred to by all the national and foreign authors that have been consulted Foreign authors say that It (the discovery) took place in 1542, in the expedition commanded by General Rui Lopez de Villalobo, while the Spanish chronicles denote 1555."


However, two island groups, called Los Monges d Los Bolcanos, appear on a great many maps of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, and may represent the Hawaiian archipelago, according to Hawai'i Roman Catholic historian Father Reginald Yzendoorn, writing in the 1920s:


"The Los Bolcanos group, consisting of five islands, one of which is called Farfana (probably a misreading for La Tartana), appears for the first time in 1569 on Mercator's map: Nova et aucta orbis description at between 22 and 26 degrees north latitude and about 176 degrees west longitude


"Los Monges are mapped for the Þrst time by Abraham Ortelius on the map of America, made in 1587, and reproduced in the 1612 edition of his monumental atlas: Theatrum Orbis Terrarum. There they are at between 20 and 22 degrees north latitude and 159 and 162 degrees west longitude. Various cartographers during the two following centuries have maintained the Los Monges group on their maps, until Cook rediscovered and renamed them; whilst Los Bolcanos are mapped for the last time by J. A. Maginus in 1617."

 

[unprincipled peter]

Cook's journeys are remarkable, but often he was following where others had gone before. His North America west coast adventure was based on the journals of the captain of one of the Spanish exploration a few years earlier.

 

[Sevarics]

I asked about a Mexican Hawaii a few months ago and was told it's unlikely. Although, to be fair, the Spanish knew about Hawaii long before Cook got there.

La Vezina (the neighbour) for "Big Island", Isla de Desgraciada (Unhappy Island) for "Maui", and Los Monges (the monks) for Kahoolawe, Lanai, and Molokai.

True but if Luis the First survived it might be possible since he wanted to focus on colonies

 

[unprincipled peter]

True but if Luis the First survived it might be possible since he wanted to focus on colonies

You've said this a couple of times.

Source?

The little bit I've seen isn't much, and didn't point in any particular direction of policy. A poster here commented that he largely kept the same core of ministers. He was young and immature, and only reigned for a few months. I would guess Spain would tack a somewhat similar course, but with less emphasis on Italy. Depending on how the minister influential circle shook out, you could see increased efforts in the colonies.

As I said on an earlier post, he's a blank slate, so you can sketch his reign any way you want. Just wondering if your comments are based on real history, or your desired alt history?

 

[EMT]

As I said on an earlier post, he's a blank slate, so you can sketch his reign any way you want. Just wondering if your comments are based on real history, or your desired alt history?

I'll go ahead and clarify now that my post earlier describing Spanish colonization in the 18th century wasn't based on facts on the ground to lead to its discovery but taking the idea of gold being discovered as fait accompli and what would happen after, instead of going on about what would need to happen to arrive at that discovery.

 

[Sevarics]

You've said this a couple of times.

Source?

The little bit I've seen isn't much, and didn't point in any particular direction of policy. A poster here commented that he largely kept the same core of ministers. He was young and immature, and only reigned for a few months. I would guess Spain would tack a somewhat similar course, but with less emphasis on Italy. Depending on how the minister influential circle shook out, you could see increased efforts in the colonies.

As I said on an earlier post, he's a blank slate, so you can sketch his reign any way you want. Just wondering if your comments are based on real history, or your desired alt history?

The Miguel de Cervantes Virtual Library has an article on him in Spanish and that’s where the comment is from. The Miguel de Cervantes Virtual Library is a large-scale digital library project, hosted and maintained by the University of Alicante in Alicante, Spain.

 

[unprincipled peter]

I'll go ahead and clarify now that my post earlier describing Spanish colonization in the 18th century wasn't based on facts on the ground to lead to its discovery but taking the idea of gold being discovered as fait accompli and what would happen after, instead of going on about what would need to happen to arrive at that discovery.

Are you referring to what would happen to homeland Spain, or the colony?

Spain is a matter of economics/politics as to what happens with an increase in revenue.

The colony depends a lot on how you get to that discovery. The region is basically an unknown wilderness (from the POV of the Spanish. The native americans have another POV). It's a blank slate that depends a lot on governing policies at the time of discovery, and how well equipped the colony/Spain is to deal with/take advantage of the situation. For example, if the discovery is in the 1740's, Spain is fully involved in the WoAS, so it won't be in a position to manage the situation, or to fend off nations looking to usurp Spain's claim.

 

[unprincipled peter]

The Miguel de Cervantes Virtual Library has an article on him in Spanish and that’s where the comment is from. The Miguel de Cervantes Virtual Library is a large-scale digital library project, hosted and maintained by the University of Alicante in Alicante, Spain.

Thank you. It does make sense that Louis would have a reactionary aversion to the policies of Farnese, who was openly hostile to Louis and the others of Philip's (or Felipe, or Phillip, depending on what spelling you want to use) offspring from the first marriage. Most, if not all, sources I've read indicate Farnese focused less on domestic development and more on Italian ventures.

 

[Sevarics]

Thank you. It does make sense that Louis would have a reactionary aversion to the policies of Farnese, who was openly hostile to Louis and the others of Philip's (or Felipe, or Phillip, depending on what spelling you want to use) offspring from the first marriage. Most, if not all, sources I've read indicate Farnese focused less on domestic development and more on Italian ventures.

Not completely related to the Americas, but with a surviving Luis, might we see a rift between him and his Farnese half siblings ? I know that his full brother Ferdinand did have issues and tried to limit their input.

 

[unprincipled peter]

Not completely related to the Americas, but with a surviving Luis, might we see a rift between him and his Farnese half siblings ? I know that his full brother Ferdinand did have issues and tried to limit their input.

Pure speculation on my part...

There's an age gap, to begin with, which likely means the Farnese offspring won't have a bond. The Farnese offspring also likely are off living with Philip/Farnese wherever they settle, so again little opportunity to form relations. Farnese is probably also raising them to hate Louis and Ferdinand, and encouraging a royal opposition party.

Unless Louis handles the situation with political adroitness, it could be a cantankerous royal situation.

I wonder about the marital situation of the half siblings. On one hand, they're useful chits to be bartered about in international politics. On the other, Louis won't go out of his way to score prime marriage candidates. Certainly, half brother Philip will have a hard time scoring his prime candidate first born of Louis XV as he did OTL. He has no lands to rule (presuming the Italian angle is limited to landing Carlos in Parma and stopping there) and is not a great catch for a big nation.

 

[Workable Goblin]

I asked about a Mexican Hawaii a few months ago and was told it's unlikely.

For Mexico, specifically, it's unlikely because Mexico had few economic interests in Hawai'i compared to the United States and unlike the U.S. doesn't have the involvement in the Pacific trade that would lead it to develop such interests (not to mention that even if it did it would suffer from being a relative latecomer--the U.S. showed up very early and got very deeply integrated into Hawai'i). Spain is different because it actually has a world-wide empire, a substantial fleet, and (admittedly somewhat tenuous) trade links between both sides of the Pacific. If trade across the Pacific picks back up, there would be some rationale for them to take over the place as a provisioning stop (or at least get involved in the affairs of the chiefs to the same end), unlike Mexico.

 

[raharris1973]

So well-off people would take the double boat journey, poor people would be taking the overland route, from Veracruz or maybe even from Texas if the Spanish set up a strong presence in the region as a result of their campaigns against the native peoples of the area so they can follow the rivers west and minimize their times in the deserts. This'd also be the favorite approach of unauthorized French and Anglo prospectors looking to reach California despite any Spanish attempts to block them, adding extra incentive to secure the southern route to California.

To strengthen land communication routes across northern Mexico and the interior provinces to Alta California, I would echo the ideas of a previous poster and encourage the raising and employment of camels in the region and the cultivation of date palms.

 

[Sevarics]

To strengthen land communication routes across northern Mexico and the interior provinces to Alta California, I would echo the ideas of a previous poster and encourage the raising and employment of camels in the region and the cultivation of date palms.

Camels would do quite well in North Mexico and the American southwest