Mumps for Henry VIII

[gentboss]

June 1503

Prince Henry of England falls terribly ill with a swelling in his face, severe pain in his groin, sweats and an inability to eat anything other than gruel. His father Henry VII is worried; the country really, really doesn't need another war! But luckily Prince Henry recovers from his mysterious ailment, regains his ability to eat solid food, and history resumes its OTL course with no major disruptions; except that this severe case of mumps has left Prince Henry completely infertile. With no wife, no mistress, no woman will he ever have children.

History will start diverging from OTL around 1510 when Catharine of Aragon never does get pregnant. (Neither does Elizabeth Blount, for that matter.)

Effects?

 

[pandizzy]

The tudor dynasty dies off

 

[Jonathan]

Mary won’t be married abroad fearing her child staking a claim to the English throne.

Margaret’s son James becomes Henry’s heir, uniting the Scottish and English throne earlier.

Henry’s mental health deteriorates

 

[Jonathan]

The tudor dynasty dies off

In name only as they could unite the two cadet-branches of Stewart and Brandon like this:

James V (1512-1542) m. 1535, Lady Frances Brandon of Suffolk (1517-1559)

That is if Mary still marries Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk.
Henry maybe pressured into marrying her off to a nobleman with longer family history, more wealth and power.

 

[isabella]

Mary won’t be married abroad fearing her child staking a claim to the English throne.

Margaret’s son James becomes Henry’s heir, uniting the Scottish and English throne earlier.

Henry’s mental health deteriorates

Mary is the younger girl so she will be married abroad as Henry VII/VIII need foreign allies AND marrying her domestically would be a) asking for troubles, b) bad for the prestige of the Tudors.
Plus the heiress presumptive of Henry VIII would be Margaret, already Queen of Scotland.
What would likely change is James IV’s interest in attacking England, when his wife’s future succession there looks to be almost guaranteed

 

[Jonathan]

Mary is the younger girl so she will be married abroad as Henry VII/VIII need foreign allies AND marrying her domestically would be a) asking for troubles, b) bad for the prestige of the Tudors.
Plus the heiress presumptive of Henry VIII would be Margaret, already Queen of Scotland.
What would likely change is James IV’s interest in attacking England, when his wife’s future succession there looks to be almost guaranteed

Mary wasn’t married off until 1514, whiff at this point Henry is still without a child of his own and marrying her off would cause the problem that if she has a son with Louis of France or Charles of Burgandy, these two would fight with Scotland to have their sons placed on the English throne, we would see the English War of Succession.

 

[isabella]

Mary wasn’t married off until 1514, whiff at this point Henry is still without a child of his own and marrying her off would cause the problem that if she has a son with Louis of France or Charles of Burgandy, these two would fight with Scotland to have their sons placed on the English throne, we would see the English War of Succession.

Henry was STILL without a child of his own in OTL AND Mary was engaged to Charles of Burgundy and married to Louis XII so your argument made NO sense. Plus Margaret’s children would be ALWAYS ahead of Mary’s in the English succession.
By the way Mary was engaged to Charles V BEFORE her father‘s death so Henry would NOT break that engagement (for which he cared) for marrying Mary (who was NOT his heiress) domestically (who would give him many troubles)

 

[mcdnab]

I agree with Isabella - Henry is going to remain sure he will have a child in any case no matter what. In terms of succession - its highly likely it follows that Mary will still marry Louis XII after Henry switches sides - the interesting point will be after his death assuming she's childless as in OTL and still marries Charles Brandon - there will in the 20s and 30s be much more interest in her and Brandon's children as they are going to be a possible alternative to a Scots succession to some of Henry's court. Though I have no doubt that James IV, Margaret and their son will be absolutely sure that Henry's heir is the eldest of his two sisters - if Henry dies on schedule you might well have Queen Frances as a nine day queen lol

 

[isabella]

I agree with Isabella - Henry is going to remain sure he will have a child in any case no matter what. In terms of succession - its highly likely it follows that Mary will still marry Louis XII after Henry switches sides - the interesting point will be after his death assuming she's childless as in OTL and still marries Charles Brandon - there will in the 20s and 30s be much more interest in her and Brandon's children as they are going to be a possible alternative to a Scots succession to some of Henry's court. Though I have no doubt that James IV, Margaret and their son will be absolutely sure that Henry's heir is the eldest of his two sisters - if Henry dies on schedule you might well have Queen Frances as a nine day queen lol

I am NOT aso sure about Mary marrying Louis here, as is possible who the increased chances of Mary to inherit England (Margaret is widowed, with only two small children) would persuade Charles V to keep his word and marry Mary instead of delaying the match and demonstrate interest towards the proposed match with Renee of France. In that case Henry would offer only the widowed Margaret to Louis XII…

 

[pandizzy]

I am NOT aso sure about Mary marrying Louis here, as is possible who the increased chances of Mary to inherit England (Margaret is widowed, with only two small children) would persuade Charles V to keep his word and marry Mary instead of delaying the match and demonstrate interest towards the proposed match with Renee of France. In that case Henry would offer only the widowed Margaret to Louis XII…

There's no way charles v would marry mary in here and make his heir even more powerful

 

[Deleted member 147978]

June 1503

Prince Henry of England falls terribly ill with a swelling in his face, severe pain in his groin, sweats and an inability to eat anything other than gruel. His father Henry VII is worried; the country really, really doesn't need another war! But luckily Prince Henry recovers from his mysterious ailment, regains his ability to eat solid food, and history resumes its OTL course with no major disruptions; except that this severe case of mumps has left Prince Henry completely infertile. With no wife, no mistress, no woman will he ever have children.

History will start diverging from OTL around 1510 when Catharine of Aragon never does get pregnant. (Neither does Elizabeth Blount, for that matter.)

Effects?

Sucks to be Prince Henry / King Henry VIII if getting the awfully bad case of the Mumps.

 

[isabella]

There's no way charles v would marry mary in here and make his heir even more powerful

Mary would NOT inherit anything, She is NOT Henry’s heiress as Margaret and all the children are BEFORE her in the succession. And Charles V and Mary Tudor were definitely engaged in OTL and Henry VIII counted a lot on that match (Charles was the first to walk back and then Henry VIII decided simply to cut his losses)

 

[Jonathan]

Mary would NOT inherit anything, She is NOT Henry’s heiress as Margaret and all the children are BEFORE her in the succession. And Charles V and Mary Tudor were definitely engaged in OTL and Henry VIII counted a lot on that match (Charles was the first to walk back and then Henry VIII decided simply to cut his losses)

The war of Spanish succession was fought between two candidates whose heirs were not equal but did so based on each side wanting power for their family.
If Mary has children with Charles V, the Holy Roman Empire will stake their claim to the throne to stop a French ally ruling England.

 

[isabella]

The war of Spanish succession was fought between two candidates whose heirs were not equal but did so based on each side wanting power for their family.
If Mary has children with Charles V, the Holy Roman Empire will stake their claim to the throne to stop a French ally ruling England.

Spanish‘s succession has reasons for being uncertain, this England would have a clear and precise succession. Plus a Scotland who inherited England would lose its main reason for being allied with France

 

[mcdnab]

It was from memory Wolsey who urged the King to call off Mary's engagement with Charles V in 1513 - given the circumstances Henry faces a choice of carrying on the war with France in 1514 (and the financial support for both Ferdinand and Maximilian ) or as Pope Julius was keen to do make peace with France. Mary's marriage was a good bartering tool in that. Henry was skint in 1514 most of his wealth having being spent on the 1513 campaign and in propping up the allies he was no longer enamoured of.

Offering his elder sister and heir would be problematic - firstly she had been confirmed as regent and was in effect ruling Scotland until she fell for Douglas and married him in August 1514 (a month after concluding peace with England etc) thereby sacrificing her regency, it doesn't appear that the French king offered for the widowed Queen nor do the English appear to have wanted to offer her (even though her marriage wasn't in Henry's gift anyway)

 

[mcdnab]

an interesting quirk would be if Margaret's child by Douglas turned out to be Henry instead of Margaret and was still raised at the English court just like otl Margaret Douglas - then he will attract a lot of interest as a potential rival heir to his mother and half brother James V.

 

[The Professor]

Both Henry Tudors had issues with pretenders OTL. Would not a barren Henry VIII cause more?

 

[isabella]

It was from memory Wolsey who urged the King to call off Mary's engagement with Charles V in 1513 - given the circumstances Henry faces a choice of carrying on the war with France in 1514 (and the financial support for both Ferdinand and Maximilian ) or as Pope Julius was keen to do make peace with France. Mary's marriage was a good bartering tool in that. Henry was skint in 1514 most of his wealth having being spent on the 1513 campaign and in propping up the allies he was no longer enamoured of.

Offering his elder sister and heir would be problematic - firstly she had been confirmed as regent and was in effect ruling Scotland until she fell for Douglas and married him in August 1514 (a month after concluding peace with England etc) thereby sacrificing her regency, it doesn't appear that the French king offered for the widowed Queen nor do the English appear to have wanted to offer her (even though her marriage wasn't in Henry's gift anyway)

Your timeline is messed. Ferdinand was the first to reach his objectives and searched peace with France, abandoning his allies (and that was the start of the downfall of Henry and Catherine’s wedding). At that point Henry still counted on the wedding between Mary and Charles. Only once the wedding was delayed indefinitely by the groom, Henry started to offer his sister in France. See here for the right timeline of the events

 

[kasumigenx]

Your timeline is messed. Ferdinand was the first to reach his objectives and searched peace with France, abandoning his allies (and that was the start of the downfall of Henry and Catherine’s wedding). At that point Henry still counted on the wedding between Mary and Charles. Only once the wedding was delayed indefinitely by the groom, Henry started to offer his sister in France. See here for the right timeline of the events

In that case, Catherine would be repudiated /annulled by Henry in Mid 1510s in favor of a French bride.