AHC: Make the German Empire a centralized state (No constituent kingdoms/only one monarch)

Mirak

OTL the German Empire acted as a rebranding and enlargement of the previous North German Confederation. This saw the constitution of the country would safe guard the territories and power of the number of duchies, cities and kingdoms that composed the German Empire. The autonomy of these federal states would wane in comparison to Prussia through out the German Empire's lifespan.

This challenge asks for you to expedite this process, or find a way for the German Empire to be founded as a unitary/centralized state.
 

Lalli

KingOnTheEdge said:
The weimar republic ditched the constituent nations, so a restoration might help
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Something like this is only way what I can imaginate. It would be extremely hard to get several monarcsh of sub-monarchies accept such thing. So only way would be restore kaiser but not sub-monarchs.
 

Mirak

Lalli said:
Something like this is only way what I can imaginate. It would be extremely hard to get several monarcsh of sub-monarchies accept such thing. So only way would be restore kaiser but not sub-monarchs.
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I agree it might be hard to reform the Empire after its founding as a federal state, however what if at it's inception it had 1 monarch? The most obvious angle for this to me is a successful 1848 German revolution where a liberal German emperor is crowned by an upstart general or something. Another potential scenario I had contemplated is if during the Autro-Prussian war Prussia pushed for annexation of all the minor German states that opposed it. Whilst this wouldn't remove all of the constituent kingdoms, it would go a long way to dwindling the number and especially of the more influential kingdoms. OTL Saxony was meant to be fully annexed like Hannover was however Austrian negotiators insisted on it's preservation.
 

Emperor Constantine

Mirak said:
I agree it might be hard to reform the Empire after its founding as a federal state, however what if at it's inception it had 1 monarch? The most obvious angle for this to me is a successful 1848 German revolution where a liberal German emperor is crowned by an upstart general or something. Another potential scenario I had contemplated is if during the Autro-Prussian war Prussia pushed for annexation of all the minor German states that opposed it. Whilst this wouldn't remove all of the constituent kingdoms, it would go a long way to dwindling the number and especially of the more influential kingdoms. OTL Saxony was meant to be fully annexed like Hannover was however Austrian negotiators insisted on it's preservation.
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Highly unlike. The former scenario still involved a federated German state, while the later would trigger a continued Austro-Prussian war, and poentially lead to a general European war (ie France gets involved on the Austrian side, Russia potentially supports Prussia, Britain moves to keep a balance of power, ex ex).
 

Lalli

Jellico said:
True, but you can take a few generations. Merging states through marriage is an old game.
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Difficulty is just that these sub-monarcheis were mostly agnatic ones so them had quiet clear male succession. Of course you could wait until all male lineages go to extinct but it might take much of time.
 

Paradoxer

Banned
Mirak said:
OTL the German Empire acted as a rebranding and enlargement of the previous North German Confederation. This saw the constitution of the country would safe guard the territories and power of the number of duchies, cities and kingdoms that composed the German Empire. The autonomy of these federal states would wane in comparison to Prussia through out the German Empire's lifespan.

This challenge asks for you to expedite this process, or find a way for the German Empire to be founded as a unitary/centralized state.
Click to expand...
Prussia slowly absorbs the otl North German Confederation starting around the Napoleonic Wars. Maybe avoid early conflicts/defeats to them to help them sweep in later to take ruins of Holy Roman Empire the French left. Northern confederation is basically greater Prussia.

Might have to leave out Catholic south those. Might have to go with “three German” nations(Austria, Greater Prussia, and Greater Bavaria). The south German state could also be absorbed by Austrians or centralized state themselves under Bavaria monarch
 

Mirak

Lalli said:
Difficulty is just that these sub-monarcheis were mostly agnatic ones so them had quiet clear male succession. Of course you could wait until all male lineages go to extinct but it might take much of time.
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Even still the rigidity and aristocratic mechanics of the German Empire's government saw old ducal/kingdom lines persist even when one monarch shared both crowns. See the twin duchies of Mecklenberg behind held in tandem by 1 Grand Duke.
 

Mirak

Emperor Constantine said:
Highly unlike. The former scenario still involved a federated German state, while the later would trigger a continued Austro-Prussian war, and poentially lead to a general European war (ie France gets involved on the Austrian side, Russia potentially supports Prussia, Britain moves to keep a balance of power, ex ex).
Click to expand...
For the revolutionary scenario, I am imagining active rebellions asserting a new German Empire, akin to the French Revolution. All the old kingdoms lines and politics would be erased and a single unitary emperor would be crowned. I don't think this outcome is too farfetched if it wasn't for Prussia's effectiveness at crushing dissidents during this period. Now whether this German Empire would survive is a different coalition, one I think a number of 1848 timelines explore.

In the Prussian annexation scenario, such a thing wasn't as outrageous as you might of thought. Liberals in Prussia wanted to annex the entirety of North Germany following the war, but Bismarck opted for the federal approach (whether this was because of his aristrocrat-phillism or some 5-d chess to provide a framework for South Germany to join I cannot say.)
 

Emperor Constantine

Mirak said:
For the revolutionary scenario, I am imagining active rebellions asserting a new German Empire, akin to the French Revolution. All the old kingdoms lines and politics would be erased and a single unitary emperor would be crowned. I don't think this outcome is too farfetched if it wasn't for Prussia's effectiveness at crushing dissidents during this period. Now whether this German Empire would survive is a different coalition, one I think a number of 1848 timelines explore.
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Wouldn't work. For one, Germany was still more of an idea in 1848, rather than any kind of solid foundation. Second, no chance of the Prussian army supporting the revolutionaries: Berlin had carefully cultivated the army as a bulwark against liberalism and revolutionary activity, so I don't see any way to change that.
Finally, at NO POINT did the Frankfurt Parliament seriously consider founding a unitary state: the rest of the German states would absolutely refuse to participate, as they don't want to be part of "large Prussia" which is what such an Empire would be.

Mirak said:
In the Prussian annexation scenario,such a thing wasn't as outrageous as you might of thought. Liberals in Prussia wanted to annex the entirety of North Germany following the war, but Bismarck opted for the federal approach (whether this was because of his aristrocrat-phillism or some 5-d chess to provide a framework for South Germany to join I cannot say.)
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Your not really listening to me. It doesn't matter what the Prussians (liberals or conservatives) wanted. What matters is this: any attempt by Prussia to annex all of its enemies in Germany would trigger an armed intervention (which is VERY likely, as Napoléon III was preparing to support Austria militarily), and I don't think the Prussians would be in a position to fight on a two front war (maybe three if a Danish-Swedish alliance attempts to retake Schleswig-Holstein). Now that would be an interesting TL to explore, but would turn into the exact opposite of what your wanting.
 

Tibi088

Emperor Constantine said:
Wouldn't work. For one, Germany was still more of an idea in 1848, rather than any kind of solid foundation. Second, no chance of the Prussian army supporting the revolutionaries: Berlin had carefully cultivated the army as a bulwark against liberalism and revolutionary activity, so I don't see any way to change that.
Finally, at NO POINT did the Frankfurt Parliament seriously consider founding a unitary state: the rest of the German states would absolutely refuse to participate, as they don't want to be part of "large Prussia" which is what such an Empire would be.


Your not really listening to me. It doesn't matter what the Prussians (liberals or conservatives) wanted. What matters is this: any attempt by Prussia to annex all of its enemies in Germany would trigger an armed intervention (which is VERY likely, as Napoléon III was preparing to support Austria militarily), and I don't think the Prussians would be in a position to fight on a two front war (maybe three if a Danish-Swedish alliance attempts to retake Schleswig-Holstein). Now that would be an interesting TL to explore, but would turn into the exact opposite of what your wanting.
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What if we have the POD right after german unification? Could the Kulturkampf lead to an open rebellion of catholics supported by some of the catholic states of Germany? I think Bismarck is too pragmatic for this so lets kill him off in like 1878 and have as a sucessor someone stongly anti catholic and committed to the idea making the whole last much longer. The rebellion happens in 1887 and in some of the states - like Bavaria - takes a secessionist turn. The rebels seek foreign support - France first refuses but this gives a huge extra boost to Boulanger and after a successfull putch France intervenes in the conflict. Austria opts for neutrality however Italy joins the Prussian side in hopes of aquiring Tunisia. Russia remains neutral and the british seek to contain the conflict - though their sympathies lie with Germany.

The war last 2 years and Prussia reconquered southern Germany - though they failed to retake all of Alsace-Lorraine - in the peace brokered by the british and the austrians France got Metz back.

After the war Prussia decides to turn the Empire to a unitary state: the rebels were greatly helped by the existence of the separate armies handing them a ready fighting force and the existing diplomatic service of the german states. This had to go - and it was finally decided so had the federal states. On the religious scene however the kulturkampf was ended and a treaty with the Pope signed. The Austrian neutrality felt like a betrayal and instead a Russian alliance was set as utmost importance - and signed shortly after. Austria joined the alliance not much later as it did not dare to remain outside of it.

In France the victory has been not been complete and rather costly - but non the less was it a victory. The regime however stood on much weaker legs than OTL republic. The 90's brought renewd conflict with London and omproving relations with Germany (which was also much weaker than OTL thanks to both the war and the populace much less enthusiasm for the Empire as well).

In the end the war of 1887-1888 was bloody and destructive. It demonstrated the destructive power of modern armies and weaponry and left in its wake states weakened by the conflict - but it was not a total war. It however gave a huge boost to anti war sentiment on the continent. People understood somewhat of the price they would have to pay in another, bigger conflict . The regimes in Germany and France stood also on much shakier ground compared to OTL - as a result were much less confident in risking another great conflict.
 

Byzantion

Mirak said:
OTL the German Empire acted as a rebranding and enlargement of the previous North German Confederation. This saw the constitution of the country would safe guard the territories and power of the number of duchies, cities and kingdoms that composed the German Empire. The autonomy of these federal states would wane in comparison to Prussia through out the German Empire's lifespan.

This challenge asks for you to expedite this process, or find a way for the German Empire to be founded as a unitary/centralized state.
Click to expand...
Maybe even more monarchs are punished for participating in 1866 against Prussia. Prussification could work to reduce the sovereign lines. Hannover and Hesse became Prussian provinces for example. So what if even Babvaria had been punished ? Also there alle many tiny pricipalities in Thuringia with some Dynasties already declining. They might get swallowed aswell. So maybe the Emperor abolishes (with support of the Reichschancellor) in a Prussian centric autocratic move the Federal Council (Bundesrat) which had been a legal institution and symbolized the sovereignity of the German pricipalities, kingdoms, duchies, grand duchies and city states.
 
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