The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

[Captain Homicide]

The important question that it all comes down to is would you want to live in a much better world if it meant it had to be maintained by force?

The global status quo IOTL (as unjust, inequitable and bloody as it is) is maintained by force though it’s multifaceted (Russia, China, US, NATO, Iran etc), nuanced and things don’t go according to plan regularly. I don’t like either world but given the choice I would take the world of AANW with the A4 in charge in a second.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

In the old and new thread, I have seen this argument parroted that Nazism's death toll mean that the A4 are rationalized in their actions, at least from the A4's POV. Now and then, I never find myself to be convinced and am very confident that I never will. Because it's not like the alternative outcome to the A4 practicing basic restraint and not callously dropping that superweapon to win a battle that they were already winning, dooming thousands of non-combatants, would be the rebels instantly turning the tables around and doing the Vlad Tepes challenge on everyone ( I find the Stettin rebels the more sympathizing side, as they were sovereigntists who wanted freedom from the A4's debilitating yoke, rather than neo-nazis looking to build a 4th reich). That much should be obvious to any amateur analyst in the A4 not diseased with copious Germanophobia. At this point, I have come to see that the memory of 190 million souls have become more of a flimsy pretext for the A4 (and perhaps a number of users on this forum) to excuse their unignorable excesses rather than an actually noble, moral obligation.

The Alternative from the A-4's perspective was not that the rebels would instantly turn the tables. Rater from their perspective, crushing the rebels conventionally might lead to increased resistance elsewhere, which increases the cost of occupation, which makes the occupation unsustainable, which leads to the German statelets gradually abrogating their restrictions, then gradually reunifying, then rearming and starting Round IV

Not this was not the only possible scenario, but one they are biased towards seeing as it mirrors post Versailles situation. Defaulting on reparations leads to the Franco-Belgain occupation of the Ruhr, passive resistance to occupation in the Ruhr leads to reduction of Reparations and radicalization of the population, which leads to slow erosion of the Versailles restrictions under latter Weimar, then the Nazi takeover, complete abrogation of Versailles, remilitarization of the Rhineland, Anschluss, Munich, CZ and then WWII. They are predisposed to see any step by Germany towards abrogating the treaty as the first step in the same process that led to WWII, and worried that like their predecessors that they too will not react decisively until it is too late, therefore they must act decisively now rather than risk not being able to later. Had the French launched a war with Germany in 1933 to reinstate Versailles arms restrictions, the world would have considered this a great crime and them in the wrong, but this world would not have seen Hitler start a WWII in 1939 with all that entails

We can't know if they were right or wrong doing this, not unless Calbear writes a sub-TL on it, from guesses they are probably wrong, but you can see a rational arguement for the A-4's actions based on history both OTL and ITTL

 

[brooklyn99]

The important question that it all comes down to is would you want to live in a much better world if it meant it had to be maintained by force?

The global status quo IOTL (as unjust, inequitable and bloody as it is) is maintained by force though it’s multifaceted (Russia, China, US, NATO, Iran etc), nuanced and things don’t go according to plan regularly. I don’t like either world but given the choice I would take the world of AANW with the A4 in charge in a second.

Leaving aside my disdain for the A4. To live in a world where there is one power actively striving to cause a global apocalypse is too risky a prospect for me to give a chance consideration.

 

[Emperor of Pennsylvania]

Alright, here are some quick questions for an idea I'm working on. I'm not sure if these were answered previously. However, first of all, since Warsaw was never rebuilt ITTL, what is the capital city of postwar Poland here?

Also, Moscow and Saint Petersburg were theoretically rebuilt, albeit without any of the historical landmarks. What is the capital of the Russian Tsarist Republic?

 

[Lalli]

Alright, here are some quick questions for an idea I'm working on. I'm not sure if these were answered previously. However, first of all, since Warsaw was never rebuilt ITTL, what is the capital city of postwar Poland here?

Also, Moscow and Saint Petersburg were theoretically rebuilt, albeit without any of the historical landmarks. What is the capital of the Russian Tsarist Republic?

Warsaw was somehow re-built altough old buildings weren't reconstructed. So I would say that Warsaw is still its capital. All Poish cities were anyway razed so why not.

IIRC Moscow was bit lesser devastated so it might be capital of Russia.

 

[CalBear]

Warsaw was somehow re-built altough old buildings weren't reconstructed. So I would say that Warsaw is still its capital. All Poish cities were anyway razed so why not.

IIRC Moscow was bit lesser devastated so it might be capital of Russia.

Warsaw was/is being rebuilt and is the Capital.

Capital of the Tsarist Republic is an entirely rebuilt Saint Peterburg (the old version having been utterly destroyed) that is arguably the most modern city on the Planet as far as technology.

 

[xxmagex]

Warsaw was/is being rebuilt and is the Capital.

Capital of the Tsarist Republic is an entirely rebuilt Saint Peterburg (the old version having been utterly destroyed) that is arguably the most modern city on the Planet as far as technology.

I recall there somewhere in the thread, or maybe the original, you referred to Warsaw and Moscow after they were rebuilt as looking like a community college campus. It always stuck me.

 

[Captain Homicide]

referred to Warsaw and Moscow after they were rebuilt as looking like a community college campus.

I guess that’s the best you can do when you’re rebuilding on top of a site of immense human misery and death. I’m sure there were many that wanted the razed cities to be left alone out of respect and to remember the horror of Nazism.

 

[Resurgam]

an entirely rebuilt Saint Peterburg

Was there any attempt to recreate the lost landmarks? You mentioned France is doing its damnedest to restore what it can of Paris.

 

[Captain Homicide]

Was there any attempt to recreate the lost landmarks?

Probably not because once the originals are gone what’s the point of trying to recreate the past rather than building anew?

 

[Resurgam]

Probably not because once the originals are gone what’s the point of trying to recreate the past?

Besides the gazillion examples of people restoring historic or culturally important buildings OTL, including after WWII, you mean?

 

[Captain Homicide]

Except in this TL it would be different because of the length of time between the Reich’s victory in the USSR and the Reich’s defeat, all the Slavic landmarks getting destroyed completely and nearly all of the inhabitants that remember them either dying or living with extreme trauma from being enslaved for years.

I think all the Slavs in Nazi Europe that survived would have much bigger concerns after the war than rebuilding landmarks though it’s certainly possible.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

Speaking of the the possibility of the Cabal releasing a not-quite-apocalyptic plague to test it out, I seem to recall that the last update mentioned a surprisingly deadly disease outbreak in the USSR. Something tells me they were behind that.

 

[Captain Homicide]

Something tells me they were behind that.

It has precedent. Imperial Japan tested bioweapons on the Chinese population resulting in thousands of deaths. They even deliberately gave children infected items.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Speaking of the the possibility of the Cabal releasing a not-quite-apocalyptic plague to test it out, I seem to recall that the last update mentioned a surprisingly deadly disease outbreak in the USSR. Something tells me they were behind that.

There are arguments for and against it, from a narrative perspective it looks a lot like foreshadowing given Calbear's comments

From a scientific perspective, that's less plausible. The bacteria in question was from a new Phylum, a new Kingdom before an edit after a comment by me pointed out how huge Kingdoms are. That doesn't look like something that would be the result of a bioweapon program, Phylums are big things, there are only 29 Phylums of bacteria currently established, and an example of the difference between organisms in a Phylum is the fact that both humans and sea squirts are in the same phylum, as in a human is much more closely related to a fish or frog than this bacteria would be to any other extant bacteria. That is an incredible amount of difference and implies the thing was created from the ground up, something we are far away from today, and while the Cabal may be willing to void ethics and throw oodles of money at biotech, they can't be that far ahead given other limiters. A more likely output from a bioweapon program would be an organism derived from an existing one, with a combination of features cribbed from a bunch of other bacteria

Actually making an ethnically targeted bioweapon, you want either a virus, or one working in concert with a bacteria, either way you have to actually look at the genetic code to tell, and if this thing was working with a virus, that would be something the research team is looking at

A virus as opposed to a bacteria has the advantage that while both mutate quickly, bacteria do horizontal gene transfer far, far, more easily, so if one finds a way to get around your control mechanism it can pass it on to other organisms besides its children. This makes bacteria a riskier and less desirable choice if you want to keep your population alive

 

[Lalli]

I think all the Slavs in Nazi Europe that survived would have much bigger concerns after the war than rebuilding landmarks though it’s certainly possible.

True. OTL Germans didnd't begin to think reconstruction of churches and palaces immediately when Germany was surrended. Their biggest worry wa<s construct homes for homeless and get food. And these problesm were even bigger issues for post-war Slavs ITTL. And probably they wanted too buidl some memorials for millions of dead. And probably many tried invest what did happen to their lost relatives and friends and then in many cases begun long mourning time.

Speaking of the the possibility of the Cabal releasing a not-quite-apocalyptic plague to test it out, I seem to recall that the last update mentioned a surprisingly deadly disease outbreak in the USSR. Something tells me they were behind that.

I read that part again and yes, there is some odd things which hint for unnatural origin of that epicdemics. Really high death level evne with antibiotics, strange and unidentified origin of the bacteria and that it just appeared and disappeared really surrendly.

 

[CalBear]

I recall there somewhere in the thread, or maybe the original, you referred to Warsaw and Moscow after they were rebuilt as looking like a community college campus. It always stuck me.

That is pretty much correct. Must have been unusually poetic that day.

Was there any attempt to recreate the lost landmarks? You mentioned France is doing its damnedest to restore what it can of Paris.

France is still spending money it really doesn't have to try to recreate what was destroyed. They are truly devoted to rebuilding the "Glory of France", regardless of cost (and let me tell you Versailles was NOT cheap to reconstruct). Not rebuilding what was destroyed by the Nazis allows them to continue to dominate France from the pits of Hell.

Russia took a very different tack. From their view you can't restore history. You can honor it (the unofficial, but frequently used, name for Saint Peterburg is Heroes City) which the rebuilt Russian Capital does with signage and "mini Museums" located at places that were once of great note (e.g. the Palace and Opera House), but the past is exactly that, past. Dwelling on it allows the Nazis to strike out from the Grave.

Two radically different views of the world. Both have major points in their favor.

It is much easier to park in Saint Petersburg, even the French agree with that.

 

[Lalli]

Are Russians still calling that city as "Saint Petersburg"? I am bit surprised if they still use that when it is German name. I would had expected them calling that as Petrograd like it was name of the city during WW1.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I think I may have asked this before but I also think I didn't get an answer. How advanced are the medical sciences in AANW? I know healthcare policy is far more advanced than OTL (well at least in America), but the fact that the Cabal even thinks a virus is worth trying would seem to indicate that the A4 are at least perceived to be ill-equipped to handle a global pandemic. Perhaps vaccine research took a back seat to space exploration iTTL?

IOTL bioweapons are something of a low end WMD, a distant third behind chemical weapons, themselves a distant second to nuclear weapons. This is partially down to risk of blowback, but it's also partially down to the responsiveness of the pharmaceutical industries; even with a messy response to the virus, America still produced 3(?) functional vaccines within a year of COVID-19 appearing stateside.

 

[CalBear]

Speaking of the the possibility of the Cabal releasing a not-quite-apocalyptic plague to test it out, I seem to recall that the last update mentioned a surprisingly deadly disease outbreak in the USSR. Something tells me they were behind that.

Releasing a plague that wipes out anyone unvaccinated doesn't match up with the Cabal's worldview. The leadership, at least the people who matter, actually believe, as what would be called an Article of Faith in a religious setting (e.g. The Trinity for most Christians, Muhammad (PBUH) is the Final and True Prophet for Islam) that the "Chinese Race" are the only true Humans (there is some internal disagreement over if the rest of the world's population are "mongrels" or if the True Humans are the next step in Evolution, brought about through Natural Selection caused by the unique pressures experienced by the "Chinese Race" over thousands of years.*

The proof of this will be a virus or bacteria that only effects those who are not True Humans (it is very probable that any non Chinese who survives their hoped for creation will be seen, regardless of skin color or appearance, to actually be of the True Human Race, simply suffering from some extremely rate medical condition like albinism). If their scientists haven't discovered the proper pathogen yet it is because they are not trying hard enough, or are not smart enough and they will simply need to continue to spend the time and effort necessary to make the proper breakthrough .

What the Cabal really wants is this

but for people


* Yes, they are at least as bat-shit insane as the Nazis, they just are anything but anti-intellectual, and they are patient, which makes then 100x more dangerous than Hitler and his evil minions.