AHC/WI: Economically prosperous USSR

It isn't unheard of. The US had faster growth in its history than the Stalinist Period , so did Japan, the same with Post-Mao China and India is likely to have a similar takeoff.
it was pretty much unheard of. The USA's fastest growth was 8 times produce in 50 years, which is still slower than the USSR's growth during the 5 year plans. Japan even slower

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Year_______Total Worth of Economy
Japan comes closer than the USA on matching the USSR in that regard (2.8 - 2.9% growth per decade)
India has only managed to double their 1985 produce in 2019 after 24 years.
China took from 1977 - 1998 to double their production, and 1998 - 2013 to double it again. China will surpass the USSR's growth in this decade most probably, but's it's still not there


On total growth rate i would still reiterate that avoiding the 70s stagnation is best

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The USSR's growth rate on average was higher than the USA's before the 70s resource curse set in.
 
But would another Soviet leader actually team up with Hitler to split Poland, and then supply Greater Germany with raw materials right up to the point the Panzers rolled over the Molotov Line?

Nah, that's exclusive to Stalin
Probably not, but he was hardly alone in that decision by virtue of the people who survived the Great Purge were all people who had similar political instincts and strategies to him.

But the Great Break was not some random affectation of Stalin. Stalin became paramount leader precisely by aligning with the pro-NEP group to politically defeat the Left Opposition, who had been formulating an agro-industrial program very similar in concept to what would become the Five Year Plans since the Scissors Crisis. And once they were out of the picture, the "center" around Stalin came to believe the time was ripe for that anyway.

The NEP wasn't some golden middle ground. Literally no one in the USSR liked it, it was a compromise that pleased nobody but was nonetheless necessary to preserve worker/peasant alliance. But the time was always going to run out for the NEP, and even if Stalin died in the Battle of Tsaritsyn or died of an early stroke, someone else would have made a similar political decision. The context would have been different but the idea that the shelf-life on the NEP wasn't expiring is just not grounded in history
 
Industrial warfare is fought with industrial goods. Coal and iron ore to make steel. Steel to make guns, tanks and trucks. Aluminum to make aircraft, and engines. Copper for electrical equipment. Oil and chemical plants to produce explosives. These things things are made possible, in the USSR and everywhere else in history, by consolidating and rationalizing agricultural production, freeing up labor for industry.

I am having difficulty understanding how you think the USSR could have fought any kind of war with Germany (and the roots of Drang nach Osten are fare deeper than Hitler's rise to power) without the Five Year Plans. Production of key industrial goods like steel, cement, coal, etc., increased by 3 to 4x from the beginning of the First Five Year Plan to end of the Second Five Year plan (1928 to 1937).

Without it, the USSR would not have been in the same weight class as Germany. And even with it, Germany still had considerably higher industrial projection of every key industrial good except for oil, which is a matter of geography.
A less insane, and paranoid Soviet Union would have a better army, and air force, with an intact leadership. They might have been better able to work with other powers to contain Hitler, and not ally with him. If they hadn't lost so much of their industrial, and agricultural heartland in 1941 they might not have needed such desperate industrial mobilization methods in 1942-45. They also would've had more food. And without killing, and starving so many of their own people in the 1930's they would've had more manpower.
 
A less insane, and paranoid Soviet Union would have a better army, and air force, with an intact leadership. They might have been better able to work with other powers to contain Hitler, and not ally with him. If they hadn't lost so much of their industrial, and agricultural heartland in 1941 they might not have needed such desperate industrial mobilization methods in 1942-45. They also would've had more food. And without killing, and starving so many of their own people in the 1930's they would've had more manpower.

Not trying to be a Stalin apologist, but him allying with Hitler was a lot more of a gray decision then what it’s typically taught. Stalin truly did try to forge an anti fascist alliance with GB and France, after the Sudetenland crisis and they blew him off, so Stalin cut a deal with Hitler instead hoping the capitalist powers destroy each other.

His biggest blunders were definitely killing his tip generals and partitioning Poland with Germany since it removed a buffer state. After reading “Stalin’s War” it definitely made me rethink the whole Stalin got surprised attacked by Hitler, as Stalin was right in his thinking that Hitler would be insane to attack the USSR. Once Hitler did this even though Barbarossa was a catastrophe for the Soviets it signed Nazi Germanys death warrant.
 
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A less insane, and paranoid Soviet Union would have a better army, and air force, with an intact leadership. They might have been better able to work with other powers to contain Hitler, and not ally with him. If they hadn't lost so much of their industrial, and agricultural heartland in 1941 they might not have needed such desperate industrial mobilization methods in 1942-45. They also would've had more food. And without killing, and starving so many of their own people in the 1930's they would've had more manpower.
Aside from the famine caused during the First Five Year Plan, agricultural production had increased in the Soviet Union post collectivization. It came with mechanization, irrigation projects, and the utilization of more modern farming techniques.

The question of the devil's pact is an entirely separate one from the five year plans, but the simple fact is the only reason why it wouldn't have been made post Munich in a continues NEP scenario is that the USSR wouldnt have had anything surplus to export to Germany without the crash industrialization program.

It doesn't change anything about Western appeasement or the political reason why Germany wanted to colonize the East.

Sure, a Red Army that hadn't been demoralized and decapitated would be a boon, but all of them, especially the ones who had been purged, were huge political supporters of the crash industrialization program, none more than Tukhachevsky.
 

marathag

Banned
Not trying to be a Stalin apologist, but him allying with Hitler was a lot more of a gray decision then what it’s typically taught. Stalin truly did try to forge an anti fascist alliance with GB and France, after the Sudetenland crisis and they blew him off, so Stalin cut a deal with Hitler instead hoping the capitalist powers destroy each other.

His biggest blunders were definitely killing his tip generals and partitioning Poland with Germany since it removed a buffer state. After reading “Stalin’s War” it definitely made me rethink the whole Stalin got surprised attacked by Hitler, as Stalin was right in his thinking that Hitler would be insane to attack the USSR. Once Hitler did this even though Barbarossa was a catastrophe for the Soviets it signed Nazi Germanys death warrant.
It wasn't very grey at all, deep black.
Mass graves for the Polish intelligentsia, and similar for the other Baltics.
Supplying Hitler with all the raw materials he could get nowhere else
Friendly relations, allowing the attack on the Low Countries and France, even for military matters like helping German Raiders reach the Pacific

He may have thought 'Lets You and Him fight' would get the Wallies and Nazi Germany in a death spiral of trench warfare , but even after the French Glass Jaw was discovered,he not just ignored, but actively downplayed threats of a German attack from his own Spy network and did not do a thing to prepare for that, and forbade any action that could been seen as hostile, like intercepting German recon flights.
All while continuing the Purge of the VVS, and dismantling of the Stalin Line on the old Polish Border, and doing little to build the new Molotov line
 
The flipping Russian Empire produced steel. It was the 4th largest producer in the world in 1914 behind the US, Germany and the UK. The idea that Russia was totally unindustrialized before the revolution needs to die.
One, I don't think anyone claimed that. Two, I have stats.
1913​
1921​
1928​
1939​
Coal [Mil Tons]​
29.2​
9.0​
35.4​
165.9**​
Electricity [Bil. Kwhs]​
2.0​
0.5​
5.0​
48.3**​
Oil [Mil Tons]​
10.3​
3.8​
11.7​
31.1​
Pig Iron [Mil Tons]​
4.2​
0.1​
3.3​
14.5​
Steel [Mil Tons]​
4.3​
0.2​
4.0​
17.6​
Railway Tonnage [Mil]​
134.4​
39.4​
83.4*​
415**​
* - 1925, ** - 1940.
So, you can see here that generally speaking, the NEP managed to restore the production levels seen before WW1. This makes sense, as most of the capacity was not destroyed, but rendered inoperative due to fuel, raw materiels or food for the workers. But once the old plant was re-activated, any increase in capacity requires lots of capital plant. Which had to be imported from overseas.

Let us also recall, the situation in 1913 was not 'good'. Russia was primarily an exporter of raw materials and an importer of 'tech'. Much of the industry in Russia was foreign-owned. She was, for all intents and purposes a semi-colonial economy. And one of the promises of the Bolsheviks was to change all that.
What, to me, was the fatal flaw here is that at the time of the Revolution, the Bolsheviks repudiated all of Imperial Russia's debt.
The fact you've suggested that shows a fatal flaw in your understanding of who the Bolsheviks were.

They are not 'just another Russian government'. They are internationalist revolutionaries. They felt that Russia was just the first piece of 'a new civilisation', based on socialism [and ultimately ending with 'True Communism']. That shortly, other peoples will join them as the international capitalist system shook itself apart from the Great War [which if you think of the various post-War revolutionary upsurge, they were not completely stupid in expecting].

To 'accept' all of the old Czarist debt made no sense. First, they expected those creditors to fall anyway. Second, to accept the debt the next bit is to accept all the foreign ownership of capital within 'Red Russia'. Thirdly, the 'West' made zero moves to forgive, reduce or rechedule any of the debt - it was pretty much stonewalling all the way. Lastly, the Bolsheviks saw no reason to pay [in their minds] another's debts - as in, they gained nothing.
That is why, to me, the NEP period, even prolonging it, seems fascinating.
Yet it did not solve the fundamental issue - that of capital accumulation.

NEP restored most of the pre-War damage, but it was incapable of really pushing development any faster than a crawl. NEP farming was in fact less efficient than Czarist [due to the loss of the big landlords], massively undercapitalised and unable to produce the surpluses needed for industrialisation. The tiny industrial sector was too weak to take the brunt, and the USSR had no colonies etc to exploit for funds. [In fact, the USSR's industrial capacity was almost too small to make enough consumer goods to incentivise peasants to increase production anyway].

The peasantry either needed to really up their game or learn the benefits of collectivisation [and economies of scale]. However, the first one was politically unnaceptable ['restoration of capitalism in the countryside!'] and the second required state investments in farming plant etc [which they could not afford]. It was a true Catch-22; which Stalin brutally solved - collectivisation, but simply make the peasants go hungry in lieu of higher production.

Simply continuing NEP indefinitely would not generate the level of capital required for anything approaching a rapid industrialisation. What's more, the onset of the Great Depression would have seriously hurt the USSR's export income due to the massive deflationary jerk in prices for raw materials [think it was about -35%].
That fundamentally goes back to the allocation problem I mentioned in my post on page 2. There were a number of proposals issued, but I only know the specifics of two....
Having all the price-sets actually represent something approximating 'market prices' and giving plants etc orders to go for profit over sheer output should help here. Soviet design bureaus were actually, rather decent with coming up with new designs, models and so on [as many a foreign trade show testified] - they just sucked at getting them adopted. A USSR where a director could get in serious trouble if their plant was losing money by churning out unsellable tat, they'd have a much stronger motivation to listen to the bureaus more.
 
No with out dropping notion of Centraly planning everything. Which is probably ideological deal breaker. If some variant of communism could be cooked up where price discovery is possible and bottom up initiative is possible then maybe.

For example bottom up formed coops could provide services notoriously lacking in quality or quantities. Lets say house developer coops.
So Ms. Secretary could hire them for building a dacha.
Or allowing self employment say Taylors, plumbers etc.
This is actually OK with USSR constitution.
 
But would another Soviet leader actually team up with Hitler to split Poland, and then supply Greater Germany with raw materials right up to the point the Panzers rolled over the Molotov Line?

Nah, that's exclusive to Stalin
How would not signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact be a good idea? Most of the Polish army had already been destroyed as a fighting force, it would just be giving Germany a few hundred km of territory as a head start. If they advanced the same distance into the USSR from there as from OTL Barbarossa, Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad would all have fallen.
 
They might have been better able to work with other powers to contain Hitler, and not ally with him.
This is literally what Stalin tried to do initially. He offered a mutual defensive pact to Britain and France in 1938, but they rejected this. Please read literally anything about the history of the USSR that isn't from PragerU.
 

marathag

Banned
This is literally what Stalin tried to do initially. He offered a mutual defensive pact to Britain and France in 1938, but they rejected this. Please read literally anything about the history of the USSR that isn't from PragerU.
Uncle Joe still could have acted as an unfriendly neutral, and not act as an ally with Hitler, even after the rebuff.
 

marathag

Banned
How would not signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact be a good idea? Most of the Polish army had already been destroyed as a fighting force, it would just be giving Germany a few hundred km of territory as a head start. If they advanced the same distance into the USSR from there as from OTL Barbarossa, Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad would all have fallen.
those square miles of Poland hardly slowed the Nazis at all, after they broke that Pact.
Building up the Stalin line, in 1939, would have been a better choice, rather than gaining some unfriendly Poles and giving almost all the Oil and raw materials to fight France and the UK
Sit on the Stalin line, with enough of an Army, Hitler would have to keep manned.
Bingo- not enough forces to attack France with any chance of success
 
This is much it.

The Soviets from 1946 to 1970 was growing 5.8% per annum. The US grew like 2.7% same time period. But they were too far behind. The Soviet per capita around 1946 was roughly similar to the US in 1850.
In the 20 years before WWI the growth rate was just above 6%.

Its a POD before 1945, but if Russia just doesn't go communist it was already on a pretty good track, and then when we consider that there likely wouldn't be the 10s of millions intentionally starved to death, executed, or sent to die in the gulags, along with the fact that they wouldn't be getting rid of the most productive farmers, industrialists, and other members of society, Russia would be far more prosperous than it is today

edit: just reading through the other replies in this thread. The fact that people try to defend Stalin and soviet communism always shocks me, no matter how many times I see them do it.
 
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This is literally what Stalin tried to do initially. He offered a mutual defensive pact to Britain and France in 1938, but they rejected this. Please read literally anything about the history of the USSR that isn't from PragerU.
What made an alliance so difficult was no one trusted the Soviets. If Soviet troops moved into Poland to help defend against the Germans, would they ever leave?
 
What made an alliance so difficult was no one trusted the Soviets. If Soviet troops moved into Poland to help defend against the Germans, would they ever leave?
Most of the people there weren't even Polish, the Polish government took it from Russia during the Russian Civil War in a naked landgrab. Why should they leave?
 
...but if Russia just doesn't go communist it was already on a pretty good track...
You then fail the title of thread 'Make USSR economically prosperous.'
edit: just reading through the other replies in this thread. The fact that people try to defend Stalin and soviet communism always shocks me, no matter how many times I see them do it.
In my case it's not 'defending' - more the pointing out that in the case of collectivisation it worked in the stated goal of getting the levels of agricultural product to export to finance the first two Five-Year Plans, which as my stats show pushed Soviet industry to levels simply unattainable by any other means.* Whether it could have been done without so high a cost and whether the result was even worth it are different debates.

This is why I put by POD at 1945; so this thread did not get derailed yet again by Stalin, Hitler et al.

* If anyone has any other ideas for that, I'm curious. For I can't really see another way out.
 
We have a term "Notzis" for AH suggestions to change the Nazis to be unrecognisable from OTL.

Not wanting to pull a horseshoe or anything.

But threads like this makes we wonder, whether we need a similar terms for the Soviets in such cases.
Maybe Notsviets? Njetviets?
 
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