Spain Joins the Axis: Where do D-Day and Dragoon Happen?

And where are those trains and supplies being diverted from? How are the Germans going to feed the Spanish when they are already struggling to feed their own people?

The DRB had plenty of trains available in Fall 1940, and massive stocks of material had been captured after France fell. I doubt Nazi Germany would care much about what happened to the Spanish people - see the famines in Greece and the Netherlands IOTL, the former of which killed 100s of thousands of people. Goering wanted Spain to be a little more than an economic subsidiary to be exploited for Germany's benefit, while Raeder just wanted bases for U-Boats/surface raiders.

The Germans don't have the Rolling Stock and engines to spare
During the War, the was a break of Guage, just like in Poland Standard Gauge to Soviet Broad Guage.
Spain and Portugal used the Iberian Guage, 5'5" 5/8
Conversion to Standard 4" 8 1/2 was during the 1990s.
Soviet Guage was just under 5'

As I said, the DRB had plenty of trains available in Fall 1940, when no active operations were going on. Nazi Germany converted the railway line from Brest to Smolensk in a month and a half - and the RKKA could offer substantially heavier resistance than the Spanish Army, which will likely be destroyed before it can fully mobilize. Germany could run a couple trunk lines on their own gauge and continue running the branch lines on Iberian gauge if rolling stock problems prevent a full conversion (Which I doubt, since they ran the entire network of the Western USSR under occupation IOTL from 1941-43), as the RKKA did in Poland/Romania/Hungary IOTL.
 
Then I would expect both Spain and Germany to have their own problems to deal with without getting involved in the other's.
Yeah. Spain will be embroiled deciding who's the new boss. Untill then Germany (and the allies) won't even know who to deal with... and Germany is getting stuck in Russia.
 

marathag

Banned
The Germans didn't have enough Standard Gauge trains and rolling stock for adequate logistics in the East, and then you expect those same overworked RR workers to to jump over to Spain when there was still hundreds of miles of Soviet track to redo, plus you need more Trainset for Spain, once the rails are redone? Henschel can make Tanks, or they can make Trains.
Choose.
 

Garrison

Donor
The DRB had plenty of trains available in Fall 1940, and massive stocks of material had been captured after France fell. I doubt Nazi Germany would care much about what happened to the Spanish people - see the famines in Greece and the Netherlands IOTL, the former of which killed 100s of thousands of people. Goering wanted Spain to be a little more than an economic subsidiary to be exploited for Germany's benefit, while Raeder just wanted bases for U-Boats/surface raiders.
Those stocks of supplies are gone by 41-42, consumed to keep the German war machine going. And Franco was perfectly aware of the attitude towards Spain, another reason he wouldn't join.

As I said, the DRB had plenty of trains available in Fall 1940, when no active operations were going on. Nazi Germany converted the railway line from Brest to Smolensk in a month and a half - and the RKKA could offer substantially heavier resistance than the Spanish Army, which will likely be destroyed before it can fully mobilize. Germany could run a couple trunk lines on their own gauge and continue running the branch lines on Iberian gauge if rolling stock problems prevent a full conversion (Which I doubt, since they ran the entire network of the Western USSR under occupation IOTL from 1941-43), as the RKKA did in Poland/Romania/Hungary IOTL.
The Reichsbahn could only be kept functioning in 1940 by looting rolling stock from the French. Again the point of the thread was Spain Joins the Axis, not gets conquered by Germany. By conquering Spain Germany gains, nothing. As a neutral nation Spain was one of the few places Germany could use as an intermediary for buying certain rare raw materials. As an occupied country its yet another place that has to be garrisoned and the fact that Hitler has turned on a fellow Fascist will not improve relations with Italy.
 

cardcarrier

Banned
landings in Spain would be very unproductive for the allies and slowed down by Axis economy of force defenses because of the many river lines and topographical obstacles

one would hope that the more objective people like General Marshal could talk Churchill and anyone else who would be interested in such an enterprise out of that
 

Garrison

Donor
landings in Spain would be very unproductive for the allies and slowed down by Axis economy of force defenses because of the many river lines and topographical obstacles

one would hope that the more objective people like General Marshal could talk Churchill and anyone else who would be interested in such an enterprise out of that
Marshall? The man who wanted to abandon Germany first in favour of the Pacific? He's your standard for objectivity? Of course the allies aren't going to land in Spain anymore than they set foot in Norway, it will just provide a useful addition to Fortitude.
 

cardcarrier

Banned
Marshall? The man who wanted to abandon Germany first in favour of the Pacific? He's your standard for objectivity? Of course the allies aren't going to land in Spain anymore than they set foot in Norway, it will just provide a useful addition to Fortitude.

If the British where not going to allow landings in France until 1944 he did have a certain point

Again I'd hope that wiser heads who can read topographic maps would prevail... but Churchill did engineer the Italian campaign which was a broken back battle, and not a great use of manpower/resources; the man did love him some peripheral battles strait into cliffs :/ the infantry be damned

Spain would be worse
 

Garrison

Donor
If the British where not going to allow landings in France until 1944 he did have a certain point
Allow? Good grief! You do understand that landings in France were impossible in 1942-43 given the scale of build-up required, which was the view of one Dwight D Eisenhower among many others.
 

cardcarrier

Banned
Allow? Good grief! You do understand that landings in France were impossible in 1942-43 given the scale of build-up required, which was the view of one Dwight D Eisenhower among many others.

They where only impossible in 1943 because too many divisions/aircraft/shipping had been committed to the south. Germany wasn't going to be defeated in Italy

The German occupation army of 1943 in France, even augmented by most of the divisions they committed to Italy would never have held the allied armies.

The narrowness and elevations of Italy negated all allied advantages in manpower and mobility of their divisions

It let Germany defend a front that was often 100m wide or less due to the rivers and mountains vs most of France being excellent tank country where the Germans could be outmaneuvered or drawn into the open and destroyed by superior allied firepower

Total German armored reserves for use against the western allies after Tunisgrad could generously be described as 2 divisions and the infantry formations in France where either bloodied shells from Russia or raw immobile formations that could be easily cut off or bypassed
 
Those stocks of supplies are gone by 41-42, consumed to keep the German war machine going. And Franco was perfectly aware of the attitude towards Spain, another reason he wouldn't join.

I completely agree. Nazis aren’t very good at long term planning. Nevertheless, there was a firm desire at last from the “Mediterraneanist” circles to occupy Spain for military/economic reasons.

The Reichsbahn could only be kept functioning in 1940 by looting rolling stock from the French. Again the point of the thread was Spain Joins the Axis, not gets conquered by Germany. By conquering Spain Germany gains, nothing. As a neutral nation Spain was one of the few places Germany could use as an intermediary for buying certain rare raw materials. As an occupied country its yet another place that has to be garrisoned and the fact that Hitler has turned on a fellow Fascist will not improve relations with Italy.

Is that true? I’d like to see that sourced. In any case, the DRB had already looted France and successfully supported AG-sized operations in Greece/Yugoslavia and 3 AGs in Russia up to a depth of 700-800km, after which of course it required extensive reorganization to support further operations in 1942-43. Your assertion that it couldn’t support a 15-division operation in Spain isn’t borne out by the facts. The Spanish Army isn’t the The GRT alone could provide motorized logistics up to a depth of 400km, more than sufficient to overrun Spain’s capital and destroy its armed forces. After that, an occupation of the remainder of the country doesn’t require intense munitions consumption.

I’m pointing out that the premise of this thread isn’t achievable, because Franco’s price for joining the Axis was too high in 1940 and after 1941 he very clearly saw the direction the war was going. The only way to achieve an Axis Spain is to have it be a puppet regime under occupation. The fact that the Nazis benefitted from a neutral Spain doesn’t mean they wanted a neutral Spain. Hitler actively courted Franck to enter the war, and both Ribbentrop and Goering wanted to simply send in the troops and stop wasting time negotiating.


The Germans didn't have enough Standard Gauge trains and rolling stock for adequate logistics in the East, and then you expect those same overworked RR workers to to jump over to Spain when there was still hundreds of miles of Soviet track to redo, plus you need more Trainset for Spain, once the rails are redone? Henschel can make Tanks, or they can make Trains.
Choose.

They didn’t have adequate material commensurate to their objectives, which were insane, or commensurate to the ability of their opponent to keep resisting after disastrous defeats. The DRB and GRT supported an advance of over 600km in less than a month by 3 AGs, after which a substantial operational paise was needed. They certainly could support 15 divisions in Spain over a similar distance with no immediate other commitments, which would be more than enough to occupy the majority of the country and destroy its military within weeks. In comparison to running the entire economy of the occupied USSR for 3 years and supporting hundreds of divisions, a couple standard gauge trunk lines and an occupation force of 15 divisions is a drop in the ocean.

These claims are really grasping at straws and don’t reflect what happened IOTL. The invasion of Spain would be a straightforward operation requiring 2-3 months tops. The long-run occupation would be a mess, which is of course very interesting to consider, but that doesn’t change Spain’s inability to resist say Fuhrer Goering’s desire to subjugate it.
 
They where only impossible in 1943 because too many divisions/aircraft/shipping had been committed to the south. Germany wasn't going to be defeated in Italy

The German occupation army of 1943 in France, even augmented by most of the divisions they committed to Italy would never have held the allied armies.

The narrowness and elevations of Italy negated all allied advantages in manpower and mobility of their divisions

It let Germany defend a front that was often 100m wide or less due to the rivers and mountains vs most of France being excellent tank country where the Germans could be outmaneuvered or drawn into the open and destroyed by superior allied firepower

Total German armored reserves for use against the western allies after Tunisgrad could generously be described as 2 divisions and the infantry formations in France where either bloodied shells from Russia or raw immobile formations that could be easily cut off or bypassed

I’m actually on @Garrison ‘s side here (To a degree), the British Army was in no way prepared to deploy any of its home divisions abroad in 1943. The half dozen divisions sent to support Torch IOTL wiped out all the LOC units it had to support overseas deployment. Now theoretically if a decision was made in 1942 or earlier to begin building up a Cross Channel expeditionary force it certainly could be done in 1943, but you need a POD at least that early to get the gears turning.

But I 100% agree that Roundup would smash Germany were it executed, if the UK were able to prepare its forces.
 
They where only impossible in 1943 because too many divisions/aircraft/shipping had been committed to the south. Germany wasn't going to be defeated in Italy

The German occupation army of 1943 in France, even augmented by most of the divisions they committed to Italy would never have held the allied armies.

The narrowness and elevations of Italy negated all allied advantages in manpower and mobility of their divisions

It let Germany defend a front that was often 100m wide or less due to the rivers and mountains vs most of France being excellent tank country where the Germans could be outmaneuvered or drawn into the open and destroyed by superior allied firepower

Total German armored reserves for use against the western allies after Tunisgrad could generously be described as 2 divisions and the infantry formations in France where either bloodied shells from Russia or raw immobile formations that could be easily cut off or bypassed
IIRC they were impossible in 1943 because of a critical shortage of LSTs, which were needed by the hundreds. Don't forget that the U-Boats aren't defeated until May 1943 and up until then the US and British shipyards were concentrating on Liberty Ships mostly from the former and escorts from the latter.
Torch was just possible in November 1942, Husky was just about possible in July 1943, Baytown and Avalanche were again just about possible in September 1943.
Overlord in 1943 would have been risky at best - and a disaster if it had been defeated.
 

cardcarrier

Banned
I’m actually on @Garrison ‘s side here (To a degree), the British Army was in no way prepared to deploy any of its home divisions abroad in 1943. The half dozen divisions sent to support Torch IOTL wiped out all the LOC units it had to support overseas deployment. Now theoretically if a decision was made in 1942 or earlier to begin building up a Cross Channel expeditionary force it certainly could be done in 1943, but you need a POD at least that early to get the gears turning.

But I 100% agree that Roundup would smash Germany were it executed, if the UK were able to prepare its forces.
Speaking more about the 7th and 8th armies which had been through the ringer

The general defense of 1943 not doing Round up is... Allied forces would take heavy casualties, and the Luftwaffe wasn't completely ground down

It seems to often leave out they took heavy casualties in the Italian campaign anyway, and took heavy casualties in 1944 because the German occupation army was much stronger then. The luftwaffe would collapse faster due to the loss of early warning radars and being drawn out into battle defending their field army
 
Speaking more about the 7th and 8th armies which had been through the ringer

The general defense of 1943 not doing Round up is... Allied forces would take heavy casualties, and the Luftwaffe wasn't completely ground down

It seems to often leave out they took heavy casualties in the Italian campaign anyway, and took heavy casualties in 1944 because the German occupation army was much stronger then. The luftwaffe would collapse faster due to the loss of early warning radars and being drawn out into battle defending their field army

Yes, I think with the vast majority of the German military tied down in the USSR in Summer 1943 a decision to prepare for an invasion of France in early 1942 would have yielded substantial results, the collapse of Germany a year earlier most likely. Best POD would be for Churchill to decide to continue supporting a substantially larger expeditionary capacity from late-1940 onward.
 
Portugal
A hostile Invasion might not even be necessary Portugal would join the Allies for self preservation
Spain would be a mess, the Civil War just ended and two thirds of the country hate Franco's guts
Restarting the Spanish Civil War would be Child's Play.
That was one of the principal reasons why Franco did not become active in World War II
 

Garrison

Donor
Speaking more about the 7th and 8th armies which had been through the ringer

The general defense of 1943 not doing Round up is... Allied forces would take heavy casualties, and the Luftwaffe wasn't completely ground down
Or in other words defeating the U-Boats and achieving air supremacy are basic requirements of any invasion of France. The former wasn't confirmed until late 1943 and the latter took into 1944. Not to mention the notion that Churchill possessed the power to forbid or allow anything strategy wise in 1942 misunderstands the balance of power among the Allies. It was the fact that North Africa presented the only theatre in which US troops could engage Germany in 1942-43 that persuaded Roosevelt to support such plans. Stalin's cajoling for a second front had vastly more influence than Churchill's ambitions in the Med.
Yes, I think with the vast majority of the German military tied down in the USSR in Summer 1943 a decision to prepare for an invasion of France in early 1942 would have yielded substantial results, the collapse of Germany a year earlier most likely. Best POD would be for Churchill to decide to continue supporting a substantially larger expeditionary capacity from late-1940 onward.
You are aware of what happened when the Allies tried a landing in 1942? Dieppe? It proved that the Allies couldn't take a port so they needed masses of landing craft, complete control of the Atlantic, Air supremacy over the Luftwaffe, and of course a massive build of troops and special equipment needed to take the beaches, not to mention a massive deception campaign to pin down German forces in the wrong place. A landing in 1942 or 43 courted disaster. The Allies had to worry about real soldiers in the real world, a landing in France had to given every chance of succeeding, rolling the dice on a plan that might succeed if they had luck with them wasn't acceptable. The Germans had the luxury of throwing their troops into battle with their fingers crossed that everything would go their way, there was no potential for the kind of political blowback a failure would bring to the Allies.
 
Well Spain refused to join in 1940 because Franco assumed the USA would join the war and the Axis would lose, I can't think of anything in 1941 that would change his mind and by 1942 his belief has come true. Also joining the Axis is a disaster for Spain as its cut off from overseas supplies of grain and oil, which the Germans certainly can't replace. Not to mention the inevitable occupation of the Canaries. Remember only one Fascist dictator of the WWII era got to die in bed of old age...
Two actually: Franco and Salazar.
 
Gerrald M Packer’s book, “Neither Friend Nor Foe” focuses on the ability of five European nations; Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, and Eire; to remain neutral during World War II.

As well noted by Garrison, for Spain, one of the major factors was simply food supply. During the Spanish Civil War farm animals had been slaughtered on a massive scale. Draft animals were in short supply, and were not available for replacement with the outbreak off the Second World War. Spain was in no position to suddenly mechanize its agricultural sector, being hopelessly bankrupt. From the outbreak of World War II, the Roosevelt Administration made food exports on credit an effective tool in influencing Spanish policy.

From the moment Spain would join the Axis, this food supply is cut off. How much does Spain contribute to the Axis cause before mass starvation renders it the Second World War's counterpart to Russia in 1917 in the First World War?
 
Theoretically you wouldn't need to land in Spain.

If there was going to be a Pyrenees Front, America/Great Britain would pressure Salazar and Portugal into joining the Allies.

Portugal could probably hold off against the Axis long enough for the Allies to establish a firm beachhead.

People saying it's not worth the casualties.... You could say the same thing about Italy, of course the difference is that Spain supplied Germany with more war resources than Italy did, especially rare resources such as Tungsten, which the Allies would be desperately short of btw since they relied heavily on neutral Spanish/Portuguese exports of the good in otl.
 
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