Spain Joins the Axis: Where do D-Day and Dragoon Happen?

Assuming Spain joins the Axis in 1941-1942 (This depends on whenever they are ready; with this we are assuming that Hitler gave Franco what he desired to help rebuild Spain.), where do D-Day and Dragoon happen? I have read on here that the Mediterranean being passable for the Allies was a major factor in D-Day's preparations. However, with Spain we can assume that by this point it would "contested". This is because Spain would most definitely by this point have Gibraltar, while North Africa would be under the control of the WAllies. Is it possible that an invasion into Spain might happen sooner (1943) prior to one in France in 1944? Or yet, are they in some format both invaded from the south at the same time?
 
Assuming Spain joins the Axis in 1941-1942 (This depends on whenever they are ready; with this we are assuming that Hitler gave Franco what he desired to help rebuild Spain.), where do D-Day and Dragoon happen? I have read on here that the Mediterranean being passable for the Allies was a major factor in D-Day's preparations. However, with Spain we can assume that by this point it would "contested". This is because Spain would most definitely by this point have Gibraltar, while North Africa would be under the control of the WAllies. Is it possible that an invasion into Spain might happen sooner (1943) prior to one in France in 1944? Or yet, are they in some format both invaded from the south at the same time?
Kind of changes a lot as Torch and the Italian campaign likely play out differently if Spain is involved and is occupying Gibraltar. If Portugal joined the Allies then action to liberate them would probably be launched at some point.
 
Spain entering the war probably means an invasion of Spain vs the OTL Italian Campaign, to clear up LOC to the Central Mediterranean. Germany's really stretched thin here trying to garrison Spain, Italy, France, Denmark, Norway, and Greece.

But Spain entering the war requires a pretty radical turn of events, as IOTL Franco's asking price was simply too high. Goering was of the opinion in Fall 1940 that Spain should simply be invaded, and Ribbentrop openly threatened to march troops through Spanish territory to Gibraltar in March 1941 whether Franco liked it or not, which Franco promised to resist militarily. The most likely occurrence is a Nazi invasion of Spain in Fall-Winter 1940, after negotiations with Franco fail to yield immediate dividends and Hitler becomes increasingly angry with his flip-flopping.

Or you could have a Fuhrer Goering timeline where Goering decides to do it, as he wanted to IOTL, because of his personal and professional dislike of Franco.
 
occurrence is a Nazi invasion of Spain in Fall-Winter 1940, after negotiations with Franco fail to yield immediate dividends and Hitler becomes increasingly angry with his flip-flopping.
This would mean traversing the Pyrenees in winter... attacking an entreched enemy in mountain terrain. Good luck, specialyl with the bulk of the german army slogging it in Russia. However weak Spain was, I think it would still be able to entrench enough troops in the moutains to bleed the germans, all the way screaming for UK/US help. Granted, I don't see any ground troops arriving to help any time soon, but air units are another matter.
 
I suspect that Spain Joining the Axis would follow the experience of the Blue Division

Late 1941 - we are in, death to the communists.....down with the decadent British.....

Late 1943 - ahh ummm hang on we just remembered we left the gas on.......
 
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This would mean traversing the Pyrenees in winter... attacking an entreched enemy in mountain terrain. Good luck, specialyl with the bulk of the german army slogging it in Russia. However weak Spain was, I think it would still be able to entrench enough troops in the moutains to bleed the germans, all the way screaming for UK/US help. Granted, I don't see any ground troops arriving to help any time soon, but air units are another matter.

In October-November the Western Pyrenees are mild-cold but not snowy except at high altitudes. So an operation to secure the border followed by a general exploitation into Spain wouldn’t be stopped by the weather. Theoretically Spain could be conquered pre-Barbarossa, but garrisoning it and Portugal would require at least 10-15 divs (Mostly static).
 
In October-November the Western Pyrenees are mild-cold but not snowy except at high altitudes. So an operation to secure the border followed by a general exploitation into Spain wouldn’t be stopped by the weather. Theoretically Spain could be conquered pre-Barbarossa, but garrisoning it and Portugal would require at least 10-15 divs (Mostly static).
It's more than just cold/snow. It won't be blitzkrieg terrain; everything will have to be funneled via few places. Perfect for defenders.
 

nbcman

Donor
Assuming Spain joins the Axis in 1941-1942 (This depends on whenever they are ready; with this we are assuming that Hitler gave Franco what he desired to help rebuild Spain.), where do D-Day and Dragoon happen? I have read on here that the Mediterranean being passable for the Allies was a major factor in D-Day's preparations. However, with Spain we can assume that by this point it would "contested". This is because Spain would most definitely by this point have Gibraltar, while North Africa would be under the control of the WAllies. Is it possible that an invasion into Spain might happen sooner (1943) prior to one in France in 1944? Or yet, are they in some format both invaded from the south at the same time?
1. Spain wouldn't join in 1942 after the US has entered the war and the Soviets survived Barbarossa. Maybe 1940 or 1941.
2. Hitler didn't have anything to spare to 'help rebuild Spain'. What are you proposing the Germans sacrifice to assist Spain and how is that going to impact Germany, occupied European countries, and other Axis countries?
3. Why would the WAllies want to invade Spain with its limited port facilities, heavily damaged infrastructure after the SCW, and the distance involved to get from Spain to Germany? Nationalist Spain has no real force projection capabilities and could be left to wither. The WAllies might make a limited invasion in Andalusia to recapture Gibraltar and to secure the approaches to it. But there's nothing else of importance in Spain after that.
 
It's more than just cold/snow. It won't be blitzkrieg terrain; everything will have to be funneled via few places. Perfect for defenders.

You can say the same for Southern Yugoslavia/Northern Greece, both of which are comparable to the Western coast of the Pyrenees. Not to mention the lack of modern weapons Spain has, the fact that Germany’s already-mobilized army can deploy to the border faster than Spain’s can mobilize and deploy, etc.
 

marathag

Banned
This would mean traversing the Pyrenees in winter... attacking an entreched enemy in mountain terrain. Good luck, specialyl with the bulk of the german army slogging it in Russia. However weak Spain was, I think it would still be able to entrench enough troops in the moutains to bleed the germans, all the way screaming for UK/US help. Granted, I don't see any ground troops arriving to help any time soon, but air units are another matter.
Also means that the Germans have to supply units in Spain thru that path, as well.
 
You can say the same for Southern Yugoslavia/Northern Greece, both of which are comparable to the Western coast of the Pyrenees. Not to mention the lack of modern weapons Spain has, the fact that Germany’s already-mobilized army can deploy to the border faster than Spain’s can mobilize and deploy, etc.
Yes, and the gemans and italians bled themselves to get over them...
Also means that the Germans have to supply units in Spain thru that path, as well.
Yep, another problem.
 

Garrison

Donor
Well Spain refused to join in 1940 because Franco assumed the USA would join the war and the Axis would lose, I can't think of anything in 1941 that would change his mind and by 1942 his belief has come true. Also joining the Axis is a disaster for Spain as its cut off from overseas supplies of grain and oil, which the Germans certainly can't replace. Not to mention the inevitable occupation of the Canaries. Remember only one Fascist dictator of the WWII era got to die in bed of old age...
 
Also means that the Germans have to supply units in Spain thru that path, as well.

One of the major high capacity double track lines ran through San Sebastian to France, 20-25 trains per day. That's easily an AG-sized force, more than enough to overrun Spain.

Yes, and the gemans and italians bled themselves to get over them...

German casualties for Marita and Yugoslavia were 5,000 men KIA/WIA/MIA.
 

Garrison

Donor
One of the major high capacity double track lines ran through San Sebastian to France, 20-25 trains per day. That's easily an AG-sized force, more than enough to overrun Spain.
And where are those trains and supplies being diverted from? How are the Germans going to feed the Spanish when they are already struggling to feed their own people?
 

marathag

Banned
One of the major high capacity double track lines ran through San Sebastian to France, 20-25 trains per day. That's easily an AG-sized force, more than enough to overrun Spain.
The Germans don't have the Rolling Stock and engines to spare
During the War, the was a break of Guage, just like in Poland Standard Gauge to Soviet Broad Guage.
Spain and Portugal used the Iberian Guage, 5'5" 5/8
Conversion to Standard 4" 8 1/2 was during the 1990s.
Soviet Guage was just under 5'
 
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