Australian 6th and 7th divisions sent to Burma?

OTL, Churchill wanted the Australian 6th and 7th divisions sent to Burma to defend India when John Curtin wanted them sent back to New Guinea. What if Churchill got what he wanted and those divisions got sent to Burma? Could they have saved the Burma road?
 
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That is never going to happen. Not after the debacle in Greece.
If Curtin never becomes PM and Menzies stayed in power, it can. Menzies was an Anglophile and bear in mind Westminster was not adopted until October 1942. Menzies would never have adopted Westminster
 
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OTL the British Imperial forces had the 'Black Cats' the 17th Indian Infantry Division which was not then the Elite jungle fighting formation it became but a very green under equipped unit and the Burma Division which was a militia unit in all but name.

Added to this just before the fall of Rangoon was the 7th Armoured Brigade with 2 Veteran Tank Battalions of Stuart Light tanks.

9 Chinese Divisions (including 3 descended from German trained units) were also in Burma but further North and West protecting the Burma Road.

A Chinese Division was deemed (rightly or wrongly) as the equivalent in fighting ability as a Western Brigade (again not all Divisions and Brigades are created equally) and some of them fought very well during this part of the campaign.

Following the duel defeats of Bilin River and then the disaster at Sittang Bridge (that left 2 of the 17th Divisions 3 Brigades cut off) the unit was shattered as a fighting force and lost much of its heavy equipment and had suffered heavy losses in personnel (with many of the personnel having lost their personnel gear getting back across the river)

Against this the Japanese had sent 2 Divisions the understrength 55th and 33rd (each minus a rgt/brigade) from Thailand and a platoon of tanks to capture Moulmien and then advance to the Sittang Bridge (fighting the Battle of Bilin River) and then to Rangoon.

The logistical situation was that it was virtually impossible for the Japanese to maintain much more than this force from the Thai border and only additional forces were sent once Rangoon was captured adding 2 more more Infantry Divisions and 2 Tank Regiments.

So the capture of Rangoon is vital to the Japanese war aims in Burma - the campaign cannot be conducted with overland supply lines from Thailand

Japanese_advance_in_Burma,_20_January-19_March_1942 (1).jpg


So enter the 6th and 7th AIDs eh?

A political hot potato but ok

Both units by Western Standards were very powerful infantry formations each with more artillery than the entire Japanese force (each division would have 72 x 25 pounder in 3 Regiments) and unlike the 17th Indian and 1st Burma Divisions had quality equipment and well trained officers and NCOs.

So had they arrived before the Japanese invaded then their impact would have been massive and the 33rd and 55th IJA divisions would not have been enough IMO to kick the 'British' out of Eastern Burma and Rangoon.



Could the Allies have maintained a position at Rangoon with any convoy to the port now being under Japanese air range - I am not sure but tehy would have far greater options to have done so and waited for the weather to end any effective campaigning from the end of April (till Nov)
 
The AIF units would have arrived just in time to go into the Japanese "bag". They were not tactically loaded in the Middle-East and it would have taken too long in Rangoon for them to be sorted out before the Japanese arrived. They were originally intended first for Singapore, then the Dutch East Indies and then later, Australia. In each case, the Japanese were too quick and arrived before the AIF units could. It was decided that it was better to cut the Allies' losses and make sure that Australia itself was defended adequately. They arrived back in Adelaide in mid-March 1942. They did not redeploy to New Guinea until August.
 
The AIF units would have arrived just in time to go into the Japanese "bag". They were not tactically loaded in the Middle-East and it would have taken too long in Rangoon for them to be sorted out before the Japanese arrived. They were originally intended first for Singapore, then the Dutch East Indies and then later, Australia. In each case, the Japanese were too quick and arrived before the AIF units could. It was decided that it was better to cut the Allies' losses and make sure that Australia itself was defended adequately. They arrived back in Adelaide in mid-March 1942. They did not redeploy to New Guinea until August.
Are you implying the AIF divisions would have little impact in Burma? The Australian divisions were indeed trained for desert warfare
 
Are you implying the AIF divisions would have little impact in Burma? The Australian divisions were indeed trained for desert warfare
I think the point is that the time they would need to sort themselves out from being transported to Burma would be too long to avoid the Japanese capturing some if not all of them.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
So enter the 6th and 7th AIDs eh?

A political hot potato but ok

Both units by Western Standards were very powerful infantry formations each with more artillery than the entire Japanese force (each division would have 72 x 25 pounder in 3 Regiments) and unlike the 17th Indian and 1st Burma Divisions had quality equipment and well trained officers and NCOs.
Did they have their artillery pieces (and other heavy equipment) shipped with them?
 
The AIF units would have arrived just in time to go into the Japanese "bag". They were not tactically loaded in the Middle-East and it would have taken too long in Rangoon for them to be sorted out before the Japanese arrived. They were originally intended first for Singapore, then the Dutch East Indies and then later, Australia. In each case, the Japanese were too quick and arrived before the AIF units could. It was decided that it was better to cut the Allies' losses and make sure that Australia itself was defended adequately. They arrived back in Adelaide in mid-March 1942. They did not redeploy to New Guinea until August.
I think the point is that the time they would need to sort themselves out from being transported to Burma would be too long to avoid the Japanese capturing some if not all of them.
I doubt if two divisions would have been enough to alter the outcome. It may have slowed down the Japanese but not enough.
Lesser units than the 6th and 7th namely the 17th Indian and 1st Burma Divisions despite being utterly defeated did not 'go into the bag' nor did most of the Chinese Divisions once the decision had been made to abandon Rangoon so I fail to see why far superior units such as the 6th and 7th AID would.

And if the Japanese do not capture Rangoon then they cannot reinforce the 33rd and 55th IJA divisions and very likely could not stay with their tenuous supply route back to Thailand and the 33rd and 55th would very likely have to retreat back to Moulmein (if not further) come the rains which IIRC was at the end of April and persisted till Nov.
 
Bad timing and the risk of capture was my first thought.

Heck, they could well be captured by the English, unable to leave the Burmese front because of the critical situation. The English are not going to be popular with the Japanese pushing down through New Guinea. 1942 saw the RAN basically sunk. This would halve the army available for home defense. Yeah, real popular.

And then there is influence. Burma is a backwater. No one cares and the Brits will claim all the glory. The Australians won't even be able to claim they defended themselves. The American will have to do it. No one remembers the Australians in Bomber Command etc. I guess it will make the Republicans happy.
 
Bad timing and the risk of capture was my first thought.

Heck, they could well be captured by the English, unable to leave the Burmese front because of the critical situation. The English are not going to be popular with the Japanese pushing down through New Guinea. 1942 saw the RAN basically sunk. This would halve the army available for home defense. Yeah, real popular.

And then there is influence. Burma is a backwater. No one cares and the Brits will claim all the glory. The Australians won't even be able to claim they defended themselves. The American will have to do it. No one remembers the Australians in Bomber Command etc. I guess it will make the Republicans happy.
The Japanese only planned to invade Darwin. They never planned to invade Australia. The IJN wanted to try it but the IJA was against it. Perhaps if Allied intelligence knew Japan was never planning to invade they might have done it. Those divisions weren’t even in New Guinea until August.

Burma was actually a very important theater as it was the lifeline to China. China held 70% of all Japanese divisions in combat

Robert Menzies would probably have sent those divisions to Burma. He was an Anglophile. Bear in mind Westminster did not happen until October 1942. Westminster would have never happened under Menzies
 
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And Menzies would be out on his arse in 43.

Would Churchill send the Home Fleet to Asia because Tirpitz was clearly bottled up without fuel? Would Churchill send Spitfires East because Battle of Britain Mk2 was not going to happen? We know the answers. Having the homeland threatened focuses the mind, the rest be damned. If Menzies tried the reverse he would have been proven a bad wartime Prime Minister twice and suffered accordingly.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Nothing was going to save Burma. The British had made almost no serious preparations to defend the colony and what been done was focused toward primarily seaward port defense.
 
Are you implying the AIF divisions would have little impact in Burma? The Australian divisions were indeed trained for desert warfare
They wouldn't have had access to the weapons and equipment which were loaded in different transports compared to the troops. You do understand what the term "tactically loaded" means?
 
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The Japanese only planned to invade Darwin. They never planned to invade Australia. The IJN wanted to try it but the IJA was against it. Perhaps if Allied intelligence knew Japan was never planning to invade they might have done it. Those divisions weren’t even in New Guinea until August.

Burma was actually a very important theater as it was the lifeline to China. China held 70% of all Japanese divisions in combat

Robert Menzies would probably have sent those divisions to Burma. He was an Anglophile. Bear in mind Westminster did not happen until October 1942. Westminster would have never happened under Menzies
The Japanese never planned to invade anywhere in Australia. The IJN planned an operation but when it came to the conference with the IJA, the IJA asked "difficult questions" about the level of naval support and where the operation was to be mounted. Any potential invader of Australia is faced with the same problem - where? The Topend (basically the top half of the continent) is bare of any population centres or industry. The Western half is barely populated and a long, long way from the Eastern half where the population and industry was centred. The Eastern half is the best defended part and is a long way from any Japanese holdings. If they landed in the Topend, they are faced with a long, long, overland march through some of the most inhospital terrain on Earth. Same with the Western half. They land in the northern section of Queensland they still need to march to Sydney or Melbourne to attack the major population and industrial centres. The conference between the IJN and IJA became so heated that apparently blows were exchanged between junior officers. Basically it is akin to attack Europe from Asia - nigh on impossible to reach the Channel successfully.
 
Nothing was going to save Burma. The British had made almost no serious preparations to defend the colony and what been done was focused toward primarily seaward port defense.
While I fully appreciate why OTL the sending of the 6th and 7th AIDs to Rangoon is unlikely - either unit would likely have caused the IJA offensive into Burma to fail and Rangoon to be retained - both would make that a certainty.

As I said before - there was only one 'proper' Allied Division defending Rangoon and that part of Burma - and this the then very green and poorly equipped 17th Indian Army Division, the other other unit the 'Burma Division' which was a collection of Militia and Police units was not directly involved in the defence of Rangoon, the 7th Armoured Brigade with 2 Veteran tank Battalions (100 M3 Stuarts) arriving after the Bilin River and Sittang Bridge battles (which had shattered the 17th Indian as a Division) and 9 Chinese Divisions of varying quality of which 3 would later take part in the defence after Rangoon fell and the Japanese reinforcements came.

Against this the Japanese sent 2 understrength divisions with a total of 4 Infantry Regiments (Brigades) and as I understand it a single tank Platoon - I have no idea how much artillery and or motor transport they had.

It is on this force that the burden of capturing Rangoon fell.

But this force was being supplied from the Thai Border and to the best of my understanding there was no major roads and while Moulmein was captured it was no Rangoon with limited port facilities.

Once Rangoon was captured they sent by sea 2 more divisions a total of 6 Infantry Regiments(Brigades) and 2 tank regiments (not sure if these are single Battalion or Brigade 'Regiments'?) along with a large number of trucks (a large number of them British ones captured in Singapore - so not going to available until March at the earliest!)

So no Rangoon.....no Burma Campaign simply because the forces required cannot be sustained from the Thai Border and the limited Port facilities of Moulmein.

If the Area is held into April then the rains stop play and the Allies get 6 months grace.
 
Here is a what if.

What if instead of the 6th and 7th AID - which is politically contentious - the 18th British and 44th Indian Brigade (and other reinforcements in the convoys) was redirected to Rangoon - for fear that Japanese Airpower was making Singapore too dangerous for the units transport ships to reach (which turned out to be the case with the loss of Empress of India carrying a great deal of modern equipment for the 18th Division and the forces on Singapore)

Had it instead arrived and stood itself up in and around Rangoon, and been allowed more time to acclimatise to the conditions and been allowed to fight as a Division it might very well have changed the history of that campaign.
 
Here is a what if.

What if instead of the 6th and 7th AID - which is politically contentious - the 18th British and 44th Indian Brigade (and other reinforcements in the convoys) was redirected to Rangoon - for fear that Japanese Airpower was making Singapore too dangerous for the units transport ships to reach (which turned out to be the case with the loss of Empress of India carrying a great deal of modern equipment for the 18th Division and the forces on Singapore)

Had it instead arrived and stood itself up in and around Rangoon, and been allowed more time to acclimatise to the conditions and been allowed to fight as a Division it might very well have changed the history of that campaign.
"AID"? Australian Infantry Division? It should be AIF - Australian Imperial Force.
 
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