What Sub-Saharan African country wouldnt have to conquer two whole ass other countries just to get to Europe?
AHC: A Sub-Saharan African empire with territory in Europe
- Thread starter Mort the Reaper
- Start date
Not sure. None of them I think. Also not counting the sahara as a barrier either. Which really shows how hard this would be.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to have a European Emperor move his capital to Africa after losing 99% of his territory in Europe. Is that cheating?
There are timelines where you could have an indigenous African state invade and conquer portions of Europe, with it's heartland being south of the Sahara, but you would need a lot of luck. Mali and Ethiopia are the major contenders.
A weird sort of in between situation might be Christianized Kongo becoming recognized as 'enlightened Africans' by the Europeans and over time become part of European politics.
There are timelines where you could have an indigenous African state invade and conquer portions of Europe, with it's heartland being south of the Sahara, but you would need a lot of luck. Mali and Ethiopia are the major contenders.
A weird sort of in between situation might be Christianized Kongo becoming recognized as 'enlightened Africans' by the Europeans and over time become part of European politics.
Kanem Bornu invades northern Libya from it's based in Fezzan to gain control of the northern Terminus of the central trans saharan trade route.
After capturing Tripoli, Kanem Bornu hires pirates to capture Malta.
After capturing Tripoli, Kanem Bornu hires pirates to capture Malta.
This question seems to imagine subsaharan africa was an empty place with primitive peoples . It wasn't, parts were teeming with peoples and civilisations. Empires, rose, declined and were replaced.
As with most civilisations in Asia there was warfare, science and medicine.
There are a range of reasons why pre colonial civilisations didn't build large navies for example.
This explains more about it:
en.wikipedia.org
Given how Europe was the only country to develop overseas empires outside of the euroasian continent, this question could equally be asked of asian empires, south american and north american empires, it isn't ASB to imagine it.
One possible option might be that during the mali or songhai empires, the knowledge developed in timbuktu stimulates industrial development
As with most civilisations in Asia there was warfare, science and medicine.
There are a range of reasons why pre colonial civilisations didn't build large navies for example.
This explains more about it:
African military systems before 1800 - Wikipedia
Given how Europe was the only country to develop overseas empires outside of the euroasian continent, this question could equally be asked of asian empires, south american and north american empires, it isn't ASB to imagine it.
One possible option might be that during the mali or songhai empires, the knowledge developed in timbuktu stimulates industrial development
The problem isn't that Subsaharan empires can't be developed, it's that the Sahara Desert separates it from North Africa, which is further sperated by a sea.This question seems to imagine subsaharan africa was an empty place with primitive peoples . It wasn't, parts were teeming with peoples and civilisations. Empires, rose, declined and were replaced.
As with most civilisations in Asia there was warfare, science and medicine.
There are a range of reasons why pre colonial civilisations didn't build large navies for example.
This explains more about it:
African military systems before 1800 - Wikipedia
Given how Europe was the only country to develop overseas empires outside of the euroasian continent, this question could equally be asked of asian empires, south american and north american empires, it isn't ASB to imagine it.
One possible option might be that during the mali or songhai empires, the knowledge developed in timbuktu stimulates industrial development
For a empire to be that large, it needs to either be horse based (ex: Mongols), religious based (ex: Caliphates), or pre modern colonial (ex: Great Britain).
Horses can't cross the Mediterranean, Africa has never been known for developing it's own organized structured religions, and although theoretically nothing stops African Empires from developing a Colonial empire, it's harder for them due to their geographic and climatic location.
Here is a roundabout sort of way- have Punt like states continue to exist so that the horn and Arabia are closely interconnected. Then, have rise of alt-Islam with African men and Arabian horses
Taharqa defeats Essarhaddon’s invasion, and the Nubian 25th dynasty manages to survive until the beginning of the Assyrian collapse with the reign of Sinshariskhun and the rebellion of Nabopolassar and the invasion of the increasingly politically and economically united Medes under Cyaraxes, maybe even bringing it about faster. It would be poised to strike further into the Near East and Mediterranean, and could possibly grab Crete and parts of the Aegean.
If the arabs never reunited after ummayad decline this would be easier
Days like these i wish there was a dislike button...
There was a thread once about a Roman colony around Lake Chad. It wouldn't be stable, but if it ever split under a local born Roman general it could claim to be an empire and claim all of Rome.
Well the Eastern Roman Empire would still be around, likely recovering earlier with there being no caliphate to threaten it. So even if they somehow conquer both Nubia and Egypt they’d have to content with a the Eastern Empire for even just a few islands.
I'd also add, any Empire powerful enough to be able to achieve it likely has easier/better targets anywhere else. So any setup also needs a way to block them from doing the actually more sensibile thing and go map painting in their immediate vicinities.
Cool, but an African state with territory in Europe is far from ASB.
Well you do need to overcome the reasons why it didnt happen IRL. This isnt as simple as X ruler dies, Y becomes King.
First you have build an empire South of the Sahara, then you have to direct it northwards and have it successfully take part of North Africa, then either have it invade Iberia, or invade the Middleast or dominate the Med long enough to cross into Italy .
Anyways. Here's a stab at the suggestion. Might be triggery to some, sorry.
Genghis Khan isn't born. Lots and lots of butterflies. Europe is nowhere near as dominant as OTL, with a less devastated Asia without the Mongol conquests. The Songhai eventually rise to be a major naval trans-Atlantic player- not in a day, mind you, but over several centuries- with major settler colonies in what is OTL Brazil and Argentina.
Centuries later, Europe is to put it simply, a graveyard. Having never effectively entered a EU-type economic trade and peace confederation, the continent remained even more a place of simmering nationalism and chauvinism than OTL before the assassination of the French heir to the throne by suspected Commonwealth terrorists happened in 1978, and with most major European nations stocked up on nuclear, biological and chemical weapons...
In a world without the shock of both World Wars, as well as a world with a radically different Enlightenment, bellicose nationalism and expansionism is more common and the acquisition of land in their 20th-century equivalent is rather more accepted than in ours.
During a period lasting several months from late 1979 to early 1980 the major players of the world, mostly Hyperborean and a couple African and Asian, convened in Delhi to approportion the irradiated and devastated lands of the former European continent equally and fairly to the said powers. The Songhai gain an area stretching from northern Iberia to Aquitaine.
There you go - and the land will even become a settler colony!
Genghis Khan isn't born. Lots and lots of butterflies. Europe is nowhere near as dominant as OTL, with a less devastated Asia without the Mongol conquests. The Songhai eventually rise to be a major naval trans-Atlantic player- not in a day, mind you, but over several centuries- with major settler colonies in what is OTL Brazil and Argentina.
Centuries later, Europe is to put it simply, a graveyard. Having never effectively entered a EU-type economic trade and peace confederation, the continent remained even more a place of simmering nationalism and chauvinism than OTL before the assassination of the French heir to the throne by suspected Commonwealth terrorists happened in 1978, and with most major European nations stocked up on nuclear, biological and chemical weapons...
In a world without the shock of both World Wars, as well as a world with a radically different Enlightenment, bellicose nationalism and expansionism is more common and the acquisition of land in their 20th-century equivalent is rather more accepted than in ours.
During a period lasting several months from late 1979 to early 1980 the major players of the world, mostly Hyperborean and a couple African and Asian, convened in Delhi to approportion the irradiated and devastated lands of the former European continent equally and fairly to the said powers. The Songhai gain an area stretching from northern Iberia to Aquitaine.
There you go - and the land will even become a settler colony!
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The problem with any sub-saharan empire is the utter lack of seagoing vessels. All the potential candidates are land-focused -- be they Ehitopia, Mali or Ghana. And even if they would manage to control significant amount of territory north of the Sahara (which might even be possible with a wanked Mande Empire e.g.) - the jump north would be a giants leap for their logistics. Especially since the focus and center of this hypothetical realm would most certainly be in the south.
In order to fulfill the challenge (outside of some Nubian workaround) the empire needs maritime focus and the technology to build seagoing vessels.
So a slightly gamey attempt:
1. Early Malian Empire conquers the coast to the West with higher priority.
2. The Vivaldi Brothers (1291) actually reach Tekrur or whereever and are brought to Niani as a curiosity.
3. They stay and their galleys remain known, some of their tech, e.g. crossbows (which they most likely carry), are adapted.
4. The Malians focus more on the west because of that -- historically a very underdeveloped region in their empire.
5. Because of this focus they invest in bringing Arabian naval professionals into the empire (a bit like what Mansa Musa did with scholars for the university of Sankhore)
6. Malians with Sea Going vessels that develop into a Caravel-like way (which isnt an unlikely development from the dhow technology the TTL Malians would have access to)
7. Mali becomes devolved (very likely with their structure if they dont outright collapse), the West becomes naval focussed trading state.
8. Mali beats the Portuguese to Madeira (historically settled after 1420) -- which technically isnt Europe I guess, but is good enough for me.
(we can always have them set up a small outpost on the Azores at this point, and thats geographically on the Eurasian Plate, so I'd argue Europe)
9. Mali goes colonial. The fewer dreams of Abu Bakr II beome real and variola minor (the way less dangerous smallpox variant) makes its way to America - alleviating one of pre-1900s most reviled historical tragedies.
10. To mess with the Euros even more, there is now a filthy rich naval power blocking their way south and towards the Cape.
From this point onward... there really is everything on the table
Edit: The Genosese being Merchants they are they certainly had some economic knowledge. This is also right at the edge of the invention of double-entry bookkeeping. Now we have Malians with natural currency and the baseline to develop a banking system. This will require new industries like paper making....I kind of feel like resurrecting my hopes on a Malian TL with this rough premise.
In order to fulfill the challenge (outside of some Nubian workaround) the empire needs maritime focus and the technology to build seagoing vessels.
So a slightly gamey attempt:
1. Early Malian Empire conquers the coast to the West with higher priority.
2. The Vivaldi Brothers (1291) actually reach Tekrur or whereever and are brought to Niani as a curiosity.
3. They stay and their galleys remain known, some of their tech, e.g. crossbows (which they most likely carry), are adapted.
4. The Malians focus more on the west because of that -- historically a very underdeveloped region in their empire.
5. Because of this focus they invest in bringing Arabian naval professionals into the empire (a bit like what Mansa Musa did with scholars for the university of Sankhore)
6. Malians with Sea Going vessels that develop into a Caravel-like way (which isnt an unlikely development from the dhow technology the TTL Malians would have access to)
7. Mali becomes devolved (very likely with their structure if they dont outright collapse), the West becomes naval focussed trading state.
8. Mali beats the Portuguese to Madeira (historically settled after 1420) -- which technically isnt Europe I guess, but is good enough for me.
(we can always have them set up a small outpost on the Azores at this point, and thats geographically on the Eurasian Plate, so I'd argue Europe)
9. Mali goes colonial. The fewer dreams of Abu Bakr II beome real and variola minor (the way less dangerous smallpox variant) makes its way to America - alleviating one of pre-1900s most reviled historical tragedies.
10. To mess with the Euros even more, there is now a filthy rich naval power blocking their way south and towards the Cape.
From this point onward... there really is everything on the table
Edit: The Genosese being Merchants they are they certainly had some economic knowledge. This is also right at the edge of the invention of double-entry bookkeeping. Now we have Malians with natural currency and the baseline to develop a banking system. This will require new industries like paper making....I kind of feel like resurrecting my hopes on a Malian TL with this rough premise.
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In 1807, instead of going to Brazil, the Branganza went to Angola and moved the capital to Luanda. 🤪
Then, after the defeat of Napoleon, John VI recovered continental Portugal. 🙃
Technically it is an African state with a European territory. 🧐
(Quite crazy, Brazil was too massive to be ignored)
Then, after the defeat of Napoleon, John VI recovered continental Portugal. 🙃
Technically it is an African state with a European territory. 🧐
(Quite crazy, Brazil was too massive to be ignored)
So the only way that wasnt ASB you could figure out was a nuclear holocaust ......
But it is incredibly improbable seeing as how geography and logistics are not on their side.
A lot of the names being thrown around as kingdoms that could possibly do it mostly landlocked, would need to cross the sahara, and would have to take on other powerful states before even getting to Europe. Let alone conquering even a bit of It. After all it doesn’t matter if they do expand to the coast if they don’t have the power to beat the local European realms.
And damn near everytime they get mentioned it’s “wanked x empire” as if that’s an argument. Or putting out several ridiculous PODs needed to maybe strengthen these sub Saharan realms while also weakening Europe.