TL-191: After the End

[MaxGerke01]

Personally, I feel that David's got it right on the money in that the US portrayed in the books would never let the CSA go under any circumstances, not after everything they've been through for 80 years. I also feel that we're forgetting that if push came to shove, the US is more than capable of playing dirty in keeping the Confederates down for good if they even think of starting a guerilla problem Man with the Iron Heart style.

I dont want this to be seen as a criticism of what he did ittl.It makes sense in many ways and its within his right to do it as an author who has put great work into ttl.
I just happen to think there is a better option to accomplish the same goal. Also not so much because of the potential of having a situation like the Man with the Iron Heart. Thats a possibility at least immediately afterwards and to me is much more likely to happen in this situation that it ever was in OTL Nazi Germany simply because of the amount of gun ownership in North America even back then.
What Im thinking more about again is the long game and something almost unintentional like what happened in OTL by the Union pretty much taking the South back no questions asked and no real changes made - permananetly at least. If reunion with the CSA somehow changes the national character of the USA then that is a terrible ultimate outcome of this plan.....

 

[PGSBHurricane]

I dont want this to be seen as a criticism of what he did ittl.It makes sense in many ways and its within his right to do it as an author who has put great work into ttl.
I just happen to think there is a better option to accomplish the same goal. Also not so much because of the potential of having a situation like the Man with the Iron Heart. Thats a possibility at least immediately afterwards and to me is much more likely to happen in this situation that it ever was in OTL Nazi Germany simply because of the amount of gun ownership in North America even back then.
What Im thinking more about again is the long game and something almost unintentional like what happened in OTL by the Union pretty much taking the South back no questions asked and no real changes made - permananently at least. If reunion with the CSA somehow changes the national character of the USA then that is a terrible ultimate outcome of this plan.....

I have to agree with all this.

 

[MaxGerke01]

The USSR collapsed IOTL because of a combination of being unable to compete in the eternal arms race with the US and because the CPSU had become entangled in corruption by the time Brezhnev died. The lack of anything like the Cold War and actually opposition prevents it from happening to the US of TTL.

Because it isn't "sharing a country" as you put it, its the Americans visibly stomping out any hope of Confederate independence.

I agree here but I do think there is a threat to the USA and its more like what happened to the USA OTL after reunion with the South or what happened to the UK in Worldwar,Colonization and other AH works by being in close proximity to a victorious Nazi Germany. Both had their national characters changed to a certain extent and not for the better. Unless there was massive and prolonged Reconstruction why should we think this would not happen ittl ?
If there were Southern congresspeople and people on the street in the 1980s and 1990s who doubt if the Destruction happened or dont think its a big deal that it did or worst of all that it was a good thing it happened with a certain amount elsewhere in the USA who agree ? Then the USA has lost the battle despite winning the SGW....

 

[BigAbeRangel]

Louisiana’s postwar economic trajectory in TTL was shaped by what had happened after the Freedom Party’s murder of Huey Long and seizure of power in the state in 1937. Aside from removing Long’s allies from the state government of Louisiana, the Freedom Party also systematically removed all known Long supporters from Louisiana’s extensive state bureaucracy, with resulting vacancies usually filled (if at all) by Freedom Party loyalists, regardless of qualifications or competence. The Featherston regime also dispatched Freedom Party administrators to govern Louisiana from outside the state, due to the relative weakness of the local Freedom Party. Some postwar US historians have compared the Freedom Party’s rule over Louisiana to the more brutal colonial regimes established, in different parts of the world, by the different European powers.

By the time the US took control over Louisiana in 1944-1945, the state’s government, society, and economy had been effectively destroyed by the Freedom Party. The Destruction, as elsewhere in the former CSA, shattered the state’s population. The surviving population of Louisiana, if they they had anything in common in 1944, was a visceral loathing of the Freedom Party and of Featherston. This loathing of the Freedom Party (surpassed in the former CSA only in Cuba) was a not insignificant-factor in facilitating Louisiana’s fairly quiet reconstruction and reunion into the USA.

Louisiana’s economy did not recover to 1937 levels until the 1980s, and this was due to the state’s energy reserves, the reconstituted status of New Orleans as a key economic hub for trade on the Mississippi and in the Gulf of Mexico, and due to Louisiana’s proximity to the tourist-laden Caribbean. But Louisiana, like the rest of the Midsouth, would never fully recover from the Freedom Party years.

Other than Cuba, it seems that Louisiana had the highest share of non-black victims murdered by Featherston. What are other states in throughout the CSA which a share of their non-black population suffered at the hands of the Freedomites? I'll definitely see the former Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora be targeted due them being RadLib strongholds.

 

[PGSBHurricane]

Other than Cuba, it seems that Louisiana had the highest share of non-black victims murdered by Featherston. What are other states in throughout the CSA which a share of their non-black population suffered at the hands of the Freedomites? I'll definitely see the former Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora be targeted due them being RadLib strongholds.

I would say Arkansas due to it being a Whig stronghold, plus Houston and Kentucky where more than an insignificant minority would be anti-CSA and anti-Featherston by extension (same with Tennessee except it never left the CSA).

 

[PGSBHurricane]

I agree here but I do think there is a threat to the USA and its more like what happened to the USA OTL after reunion with the South or what happened to the UK in Worldwar,Colonization and other AH works by being in close proximity to a victorious Nazi Germany. Both had their national characters changed to a certain extent and not for the better. Unless there was massive and prolonged Reconstruction why should we think this would not happen ittl ?
If there were Southern congresspeople and people on the street in the 1980s and 1990s who doubt if the Destruction happened or dont think its a big deal that it did or worst of all that it was a good thing it happened with a certain amount elsewhere in the USA who agree ? Then the USA has lost the battle despite winning the SGW....

In addition, I envision the two Virginias being reunited, and the puppet CSA (which would consist of Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and North and South Carolina) being governed out of Montgomery much like the CSA originally was IOTL. Ultimately, this would reconcile the idea of annexing back the CSA with those that don't want to be associated with the CSA and the Black Holocaust.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Other than Cuba, it seems that Louisiana had the highest share of non-black victims murdered by Featherston. What are other states in throughout the CSA which a share of their non-black population suffered at the hands of the Freedomites? I'll definitely see the former Mexican states of Chihuahua and Sonora be targeted due them being RadLib strongholds.

I think thats true but I have always thought that Chihuahua and Sonora despite being Radical Liberal strongholds would probably be pretty strongly pro Freedomite during the SGW -partially because of the large number of troops from the Empire of Mexico who might have been family and friends in some cases fighting for the CSA in North America but also because of their own hatred and fear of blacks that was probably made worse by the fear that they could join or take the place of blacks if they were seen as disloyal since they knew they were already seen as "beaners" or worse by many white Confederates. This would be the case there much more than in say Cuba,Louisiana ,Arkansas on any other pocket of Radical Liberalsim. That said it would stand to reason they had a fairly large number targeted and murdered for this reason....

 

[BigAbeRangel]

I think thats true but I have always thought that Chihuahua and Sonora despite being Radical Liberal strongholds would probably be pretty strongly pro Freedomite during the SGW -partially because of the large number of troops from the Empire of Mexico who might have been family and freinds in some cases fighting for the CSA in North America but also because of their own hatred and fear of blacks that was probably made worse by the fear that they could join or take the place of blacks if they were seen as disloyal since they new they were already seen as "beaners" or worse by many white Confederate. This would be the case there much more than in say Cuba,Louisiana ,Arkansas on any other pocket of Radical Liberalsim. That said it would stand to reason they had a fairly large number targeted and murdered for this reason....

Yeah, Mexicans wouldn't be targeted for discrimination by ethnicity much but more on political affiliation, as me and Allochronian have discussed on the Photos thread and Filling the Gaps. I could also see non-whites in Georgia due to a certain populist foothold there, thinking about Thomas E. Watson.

 

[BigAbeRangel]

I would say Arkansas due to it being a Whig stronghold, plus Houston and Kentucky where more than an insignificant minority would be anti-CSA and anti-Featherston by extension (same with Tennessee except it never left the CSA).

There's a post on 'Photos' on East Tennessee Unionists/partisans if you're interested.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Why not make Louisiana a black client state? It would also make the shape of the USA less awkward too. And I put in Houston and Kentucky as swing states because they frequently swung between the Republicans and Solid South Democrats OTL, due to being a bit more progressive in terms African-American and women's rights. Despite voting to rejoin the CSA I'm sure more than a few people in those states were less than thrilled with Featherston. Similar deal with Arkansas and Tennessee except they weren't ceded to the USA after the First Great War. In the case of Arkansas, they were one of two states not to vote for Featherston in 1933.

I could go for that.Also maybe part of Mississippi/Alabama and South Carolina (Sea Islands or elsewhere). Also to me if any states were going to be annexed fairly soon or at all those would be the best candidates just like OTL. But even in those there will be certain element that you wouldnt find in Calfornia or New York or even Ohio or Indiana. The USA takes a risk bringing any of the back but only some is better than all-especially by the 1960s or 1970s imo.
Just want to reiterate thats all this is is a different opinion and Im not in anyway saying the author should go back and write it the way I would have,,,

 

[MaxGerke01]

Yeah, Mexicans wouldn't be targeted for discrimination by ethnicity much but more on political affiliation, as me and Allochronian have discussed on the Photos thread and Filling the Gaps.

I agree thats probably how it was then but mainly because outside of the former Mexican states there still werent that many Hispanics in the CSA except for Cuba. That was changing with the influx of immmigrants from the Empire of Mexico into the CSA to replace the blacks who were not being allowed to work anymore and being murdered in the Destruction .
But the average Hispanic in those states could easily imagine becoming the target of white Confederates in the CSA if they were seen as disloyal and a potential threat like blacks always were and especially after the Red Rebellion in the FGW. It wouldnt be a stretch to imagine Featherston or Goldman on the wireless launching diatribes against "beaners" in addition to their usual target. Just like the fear HT tells us Goldman always had in the back of his mind about the status of Jews in the CSA. one blacks were eliminated..

 

[BigAbeRangel]

I agree thats probably how it was then but mainly because outside of the former Mexican states there still werent that many Hispanics in the CSA except for Cuba. That was changing with the influx of immmigrants from the Empire of Mexico into the CSA to replace the blacks who were not being allowed to work anymore and being murdered in the Destruction .
But the average Hispanic in those states could easily imagine becoming the target of white Confederates in the CSA if they were seen as disloyal and a potential threat like blacks always were and especially after the Red Rebellion in the FGW. It wouldnt be a stretch to imagine Featherston or Goldman on the wireless launching diatribes against "beaners" in addition to their usual target. Just like the fear HT tells us Goldman always had in the back of his mind about the status of Jews in the CSA. one blacks were eliminated..

You totally have a mark on that. And Sonora and Chihuahua would well be places of partisan activity, and they'd very well welcome the US as liberators.

 

[GrandMaster]

Is there anything similar to Amtrak that exists in TTL?

 

[PGSBHurricane]

You totally have a mark on that. And Sonora and Chihuahua would well be places of partisan activity, and they'd very well welcome the US as liberators.

I wonder what makes sense to do with Sonora and Chihuahua. On one hand, you have them as part of the Confederacy. On the other hand, they were originally part of Mexico so...

 

[David bar Elias]

Are there any Black, Hispanic, Asian or other minority ethnic or racial groups that have achieved high ranking office or power in the US or in the military?

Yes. For example, by 2021, the USA has elected its first Jewish president (Joshua Blackford, Democrat) and two presidents from a Hispanic background (Patrick Gutierrez, Republican; Sergio Hernandez, Socialist).

 

[MaxGerke01]

Yes. For example, by 2021, the USA has elected its first Jewish president (Joshua Blackford, Democrat, Democrat) and two presidents from a Hispanic background (Patrick Gutierrez, Republican; Sergio Hernandez, Socialist).

Do Barack Obama or Colin Powell exist ittl ? Given their backgrounds its possible if less likely right ? But with their Southern origins people like John L ewis, Condoleeza Rice through Stacey Abrahams and many others have sadly probably been butteflied away due to thier parents and grandparents probably being murdered in the Destruction? It would be nice if some member(s )of at least the Madison and/or Driver families become prominent to balance that out ?

 

[German Kaiser Wilhelm IV]

Do you think America and the world overall are better off in this world, David?

Also, do Putin and Xi Jinping exist in this world?

 

[DeltaEnterprise252]

I remember in IATD, that the lawyer Moss mentioned that some Southerner might write a book on how the Devastation never happened, did that happen by any chance or did occupational censorship prevent such a thing from happening.

 

[AK47Productions]

Do Barack Obama or Colin Powell exist ittl ? Given their backgrounds its possible if less likely right ? But with their Southern origins people like John L ewis, Condoleeza Rice through Stacey Abrahams and many others have sadly probably been butteflied away due to thier parents and grandparents probably being murdered in the Destruction? It would be nice if some member(s )of at least the Madison and/or Driver families become prominent to balance that out ?

Also, do Putin and Xi Jinping exist in this world?

1920 has been David's cutoff for OTL figures so none of them exist.

 

[David bar Elias]

Do Barack Obama or Colin Powell exist ittl ? Given their backgrounds its possible if less likely right ? But with their Southern origins people like John L ewis, Condoleeza Rice through Stacey Abrahams and many others have sadly probably been butteflied away due to thier parents and grandparents probably being murdered in the Destruction? It would be nice if some member(s )of at least the Madison and/or Driver families become prominent to balance that out ?

Barack Obama and Colin Powell do not exist in TTL. In 2021, the analogue to Powell’s family still mostly lives in the US state of Jamaica, while the analogue to Obama’s family still lives in Kenya.

-
In TTL, Karen Driver, the granddaughter of Cincinnatus Driver, enjoyed a successful political career. She became the head of the Republican Party while it was still relegated as an insignificant third party, and oversaw its rebirth as a force in US politics. Driver was the advocate of the ultimately successful Northern Strategy by the Republican Party to contest and win the new Canadian states. Driver was also instrumental in convincing Morgan Reynolds to run for president as a Republican.