Riain

Banned
The problem with the critics of the Future Submarine project is they lack a better alternative. Sure SSNs would be better, but they aren't available to us and certainly wouldn't be cheaper, as I've said there is no shelf off which to buy SSNs. Off shelf diesel electric subs also come with a host of problems in the Australian context, even the Japanese subs don't meet our needs and that's before the problem of being Japan's first ever weapons export.

The only solution is a bespoke one, and no bespoke piece of military kit comes easy or cheap.
 
You can't buy the Super Hornet from the USAF, it's a USN plane so thats who you buy it through via FMS regardless of how you intend to operate it.
Ty for the information the fact the purchases went through the navy was weird to me as i figured a FMS would be from manufacturer but i guess the USA does things different or the fact it's weaponry changes things.
 
The problem with the critics of the Future Submarine project is they lack a better alternative. Sure SSNs would be better, but they aren't available to us and certainly wouldn't be cheaper, as I've said there is no shelf off which to buy SSNs. Off shelf diesel electric subs also come with a host of problems in the Australian context, even the Japanese subs don't meet our needs and that's before the problem of being Japan's first ever weapons export.

The only solution is a bespoke one, and no bespoke piece of military kit comes easy or cheap.
DCNS at least has a very long history of making decent submarines. Heck the current Rubis class submarine cut and weld job is an example of some pretty nifty Engineering skills. Saw someone post the hull may be depth limited but i am curious on that as the welds would be on the same scale as a new hull in terms of the welding and I am sure the engineers would have known what they intended.
 

Riain

Banned
Ty for the information the fact the purchases went through the navy was weird to me as i figured a FMS would be from manufacturer but i guess the USA does things different or the fact it's weaponry changes things.

FMS is through the US Government, via the service that is the main buyer of the piece of kit. The upcoming Apache buy will be from the US Army, as were the Chinooks but the Blackhawk were bought direct from Sikorsky.
 

Riain

Banned
DCNS at least has a very long history of making decent submarines. Heck the current Rubis class submarine cut and weld job is an example of some pretty nifty Engineering skills. Saw someone post the hull may be depth limited but i am curious on that as the welds would be on the same scale as a new hull in terms of the welding and I am sure the engineers would have known what they intended.

Not just making but exporting too, and France has been a major exporter of military equipment for well over a century. This counts for more than having a sub that is closer to Australia's requirement from a supplier with no idea of how to support a customer for decades to come.
 
Yep, a weak jab from the left who don’t really believe in investing in defence at all. ;)
You know I want to break open the coffers - just not for Army! The RAAF and RAN need to be doubled in size at the very least.
"LARP"? What is that when it is at home?

The ADF has not had an active part to play in Australia's actual defence since WWII and then it was primarily involved in New Guinea and the islands, pushing the Japanese back with US help (Americans invariably believe they single-handed defeated the Japanese but in 1941-1943 it was Australia which contributed the bulk of Allied forces in the SW Pacific). Konfrontasi was a minor bun fight in Malaysian territory. Indonesia was never a threat to Australia or it's territories, all rhetoric to one side.
Konfrontasi presented a genuine risk at creating a situation in SE Asia that was not to our benefit. To be sure, this was a pretty remote possibility. There's just not any other possible example of the ADF having an active role in our security post-WW2. And as others have said, LARP=Live Action Role Play, of which politicians like Howard and Abbott were incredibly fond of.
 
You know I want to break open the coffers - just not for Army! The RAAF and RAN need to be doubled in size at the very least.

Doubled in size at the very least? Goodness grief Dominic. You'd scare the Kiwis. They'd start to wonder if those "Let's invade New Zealand" ads made for The Gruen Transfer were part of an elaborate maskirovka. I can't even imagine what that would look like. Ok, maybe I can try.

But, Army, well, I'd be happy if existing plans were delivered, and even some can be cut back a little. e.g. Land 400 Phase 3. The size and planned structure seems right to me, which means the expenditure is likely about right too.

I could get onboard with significant increases for the RAAF and RAN but doubt they would amount to anything quite like doubling. Like, for example, the RAAF could get a fourth F-35 squadron while keeping the Super Hornets, and investing in bringing the Loyal Wingman into service earlier. Plus another Wedgetail or two, a few more MRTTs, and maybe more P-8s. For the RAN, like I said earlier, partly to make the continuous build commitment more realistic, expand the surface fleet to 16-20 warships. And - shock, horror - look at acquiring a light carrier, with F-35Bs and more helicopters. The latter might get us close to doubling.

How do you get to doubling or more though? I am curious.
 
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I see. "LARP" has nothing comparable downunder. Howard and Abbott were adept at playing "wedge politics" - where they would identify a "wedge" that could be driven between the ALP and their traditional supporters and exploit it. Defence is not that good an example.

Generally both parties tend to support the idea of defence, where they differ is where they are at the time and what they are looking to achieve. In the 1980s, the Liberal Party were very much against anything being built downunder to satisfy the requirements of the ADF. They believe COTS (Commercial Of the Shelf) was cheaper and easier to procure. Then, they got into power in the early 1990s and realised the ALP were onto a vote winner - local keeps people employed and provides to the ADF what they need, and keeps Australian dollars in Australian pockets, rather than overseas pockets. Defence workers were potential voters.

I've sat in a polling booth at an election and seen all the workers from ASC come streaming through the doors, holding Liberal Party, "how to vote" cards, when you would expect they would have been die hard Labor supporters being workers. The ALP has waxed for decades about building stuff downunder for those very reasons.
 
Can you explain what on Earth you're getting at and how this relates to the topic?
Giving NSW to the Royal Navy as the problem owner from 1770. No “shire,” probably no Coal River special camp. No “crowded by the mountains,” mentality. No squatocracy attempt. A different attitude towards mounted police and occupying land.

People asked for a different mentality. That’s a pretty obvious route.
If we had a shipbuilding industry of note from post or pre WW2, then you could imagine we would have seen some very different developments. What the government is trying to do now with a continuous build program to create and support a naval shipbuilding industry is good, but yeah it would have been better if that had long existed. Instead previously all we've had is a boom and bust cycle, which is incredibly inefficient.
The existing coastal transport industry in NSW was deliberately obliterated by the Labour state government’s road programme. This was in part because individual car ownership made for a better class of worker engaged in the Australian project. And it was because seaman’s unions and dock unions and maritime metals fabricators and maintainers were run by the factions in the labour movement that Cahills faction opposed.

The economic potential for long term shipbuilding has to overcome or accomodate these unions. Accommodation can work fine: NSW Teachers federation was demobilized by 50 years of accommodation. The Sydney printing trades were allowed to fade softly into the night along with the Sydney Journalists. So it isn’t predetermined that expanding (teaching) or contracting (print media) industries with militant left unions will be fought rather than accommodated into passivity. The difference is margins. Much like construction where left militant unions have been coddled teaching and print advertising had high margins.

Maritime trades didn’t. Maritime transport has a history of hell ships running on margins tighter than their workers belts. And tight margins means brutal fights.

Which is why you send it to a greensfield like south Australia. So you want Ming to set up in the 1950s a greens field military construction facility in south Australia which’s produce monopolist coastal transports in the lean RAN years. That’s wacky, it’s not impossible, but it’s wacky. Maybe nobody has fit ships during the birth of Indonesia and Ming realizes that the Australian National Associated Line of Ships needs to exist now, to give him options later. And part of that is a destroyer and below build programme / landing ships ongoing. It isn’t impossible for Ming: he founded public universities and expanded free university dramatically to invest in long term economics.

Then you’ve got a non-Gardeners Island option that’s clean from NSW unions or NSW Labour detesting coastal shipping. Because Labor isn’t going to provide such a capability in office: left unions control the docks and 50s or 60s Labor will be ALP right.
 
Giving NSW to the Royal Navy as the problem owner from 1770. No “shire,” probably no Coal River special camp. No “crowded by the mountains,” mentality. No squatocracy attempt. A different attitude towards mounted police and occupying land.

People asked for a different mentality. That’s a pretty obvious route.

The existing coastal transport industry in NSW was deliberately obliterated by the Labour state government’s road programme. This was in part because individual car ownership made for a better class of worker engaged in the Australian project. And it was because seaman’s unions and dock unions and maritime metals fabricators and maintainers were run by the factions in the labour movement that Cahills faction opposed.

The economic potential for long term shipbuilding has to overcome or accomodate these unions. Accommodation can work fine: NSW Teachers federation was demobilized by 50 years of accommodation. The Sydney printing trades were allowed to fade softly into the night along with the Sydney Journalists. So it isn’t predetermined that expanding (teaching) or contracting (print media) industries with militant left unions will be fought rather than accommodated into passivity. The difference is margins. Much like construction where left militant unions have been coddled teaching and print advertising had high margins.

Maritime trades didn’t. Maritime transport has a history of hell ships running on margins tighter than their workers belts. And tight margins means brutal fights.

Which is why you send it to a greensfield like south Australia. So you want Ming to set up in the 1950s a greens field military construction facility in south Australia which’s produce monopolist coastal transports in the lean RAN years. That’s wacky, it’s not impossible, but it’s wacky. Maybe nobody has fit ships during the birth of Indonesia and Ming realizes that the Australian National Associated Line of Ships needs to exist now, to give him options later. And part of that is a destroyer and below build programme / landing ships ongoing. It isn’t impossible for Ming: he founded public universities and expanded free university dramatically to invest in long term economics.

Then you’ve got a non-Gardeners Island option that’s clean from NSW unions or NSW Labour detesting coastal shipping. Because Labor isn’t going to provide such a capability in office: left unions control the docks and 50s or 60s Labor will be ALP right.
I know you like to constantly rant about historical politics and politicians but it's just getting tiresome frankly.
 
Doubled in size at the very least? Goodness grief Dominic. You'd scare the Kiwis. They'd start to wonder if those "Let's invade New Zealand" ads made for The Gruen Transfer were part of an elaborate maskirovka. I can't even imagine what that would like. Ok, maybe I can try.

But, Army, well, I'd be happy if existing plans were delivered, and even some can be cut back a little. e.g. Land 400 Phase 3. The size and planned structure seems right to me, which means the expenditure is likely about right too.

I could get onboard significant increases in the RAAF and RAN but doubt they would amount to anything quite like doubling. Like, for example, the RAAF could get a fourth F-35 squadron while keeping the Super Hornets, and investing in bringing the Loyal Wingman into service earlier. Plus another Wedgetail or two, a few more MRTTs, and maybe more P-8s. For the RAN, like I said earlier, partly to make the continuous build commitment more realistic, expand the surface fleet to 16-20 warships. And - shock, horror - look at acquiring a light carrier, with F-35Bs and more helicopters.

How do you get to doubling or more though? I am curious.
I am of the view that given a few assumptions (which I think are defensible) if we do not begin with an aim of increasing the air and sea forces of Australia by that sort of margin we will find ourselves as New Zealand by mid century, that is, strategically impotent on a very essential level. These assumptions are:

1. Meaningfully growing the modern defence force rapidly is probably impossible. The depth of training and expertise required is such that it can only grow slowly, and while capital acquisition can be sped up if need be that is far less efficient than steadily building up over time, and would probably be of inferior quality given our experience with how difficult it is to develop Australia-appropriate capabilities using international suppliers from different contexts. RAN more than the RAAF on this one. If we need a powerful defence force today, we needed to start investing in it at least a decade ago - probably a lot more.

2. Despite their own incompetence, our neighbours are societies on such incredible scales that for us to keep up with the sheer quantity that they will be able to field by mid to late century we need to invest tremendously in our defence force to retain strategic autonomy and significance. It's worth noting that even a country like Thailand will be able to outspend us fairly easily if they approach even half our GDP per capita, and they will during our lifetimes.

3. Beyond just keeping up with our neighbours, we will be living in extremely unstable circumstances. US power has collapsed and we don't know what the floor is, the PRC may or may not meaningfully pursue regional hegemony but they're hardly the only state that could grow to destabilise the region over the next century.

4. We've seen the ADF gutted several times since WW1, and every time it has been due to political incompetence. It is impossible to fully insulate against this, but a larger defence force will be much less vulnerable given that it will represent a much more significant part of the electorate directly and indirectly. I fundamentally distrust every political party in Australia on this matter, including my own, and I'd like to see the ADF less vulnerable to their capricious cuts.

5. Least important but still worth mentioning, I think this would represent sufficient continuous investment and the creation of a sufficiently large skills base to greatly support the industrial and technological capacities of the nation. Not a reason to do it on its own, but a valuable benefit.

I don't have a specific set of capabilities in mind when I say this, nor a number of ships/planes/subs or the like. A doubled RAN/RAAF would be a fundamentally more capable force and could do things the current iterations cannot try to do. I don't think we need a carrier, for example, but that would be within reach with the kind of funding I'm suggesting. I guess the obvious ones would be a lot more subs and a lot more F35s/equivalents, and missiles of various types. I wouldn't stop there of course. Some sort of space capability might become necessary in coming decades, and I rather suspect the nuclear option will be seriously explored if the global order continues to decay.

In terms of Army, IMO the army is strategically irrelevant and therefore mostly a waste of money. I don't say this with the sort of glee you might imagine my fellow inner city lefties would tend to, but I cannot see a situation where Army would actually play a role in defending us other through land-based missiles perhaps. Light infantry and useful in the context of the South Pacific, we should have some at least, but beyond that I don't see the point.
 
I am of the view that given a few assumptions (which I think are defensible) if we do not begin with an aim of increasing the air and sea forces of Australia by that sort of margin we will find ourselves as New Zealand by mid century, that is, strategically impotent on a very essential level. These assumptions are:

1. Meaningfully growing the modern defence force rapidly is probably impossible. The depth of training and expertise required is such that it can only grow slowly, and while capital acquisition can be sped up if need be that is far less efficient than steadily building up over time, and would probably be of inferior quality given our experience with how difficult it is to develop Australia-appropriate capabilities using international suppliers from different contexts. RAN more than the RAAF on this one. If we need a powerful defence force today, we needed to start investing in it at least a decade ago - probably a lot more.

2. Despite their own incompetence, our neighbours are societies on such incredible scales that for us to keep up with the sheer quantity that they will be able to field by mid to late century we need to invest tremendously in our defence force to retain strategic autonomy and significance. It's worth noting that even a country like Thailand will be able to outspend us fairly easily if they approach even half our GDP per capita, and they will during our lifetimes.

3. Beyond just keeping up with our neighbours, we will be living in extremely unstable circumstances. US power has collapsed and we don't know what the floor is, the PRC may or may not meaningfully pursue regional hegemony but they're hardly the only state that could grow to destabilise the region over the next century.

4. We've seen the ADF gutted several times since WW1, and every time it has been due to political incompetence. It is impossible to fully insulate against this, but a larger defence force will be much less vulnerable given that it will represent a much more significant part of the electorate directly and indirectly. I fundamentally distrust every political party in Australia on this matter, including my own, and I'd like to see the ADF less vulnerable to their capricious cuts.

5. Least important but still worth mentioning, I think this would represent sufficient continuous investment and the creation of a sufficiently large skills base to greatly support the industrial and technological capacities of the nation. Not a reason to do it on its own, but a valuable benefit.

I don't have a specific set of capabilities in mind when I say this, nor a number of ships/planes/subs or the like. A doubled RAN/RAAF would be a fundamentally more capable force and could do things the current iterations cannot try to do. I don't think we need a carrier, for example, but that would be within reach with the kind of funding I'm suggesting. I guess the obvious ones would be a lot more subs and a lot more F35s/equivalents, and missiles of various types. I wouldn't stop there of course. Some sort of space capability might become necessary in coming decades, and I rather suspect the nuclear option will be seriously explored if the global order continues to decay.

In terms of Army, IMO the army is strategically irrelevant and therefore mostly a waste of money. I don't say this with the sort of glee you might imagine my fellow inner city lefties would tend to, but I cannot see a situation where Army would actually play a role in defending us other through land-based missiles perhaps. Light infantry and useful in the context of the South Pacific, we should have some at least, but beyond that I don't see the point.

You know I basically agree with almost every word. I mean, I do think if you're going to double the Navy then a carrier should be on the table, or at least a couple of ASW optimised helicopter carriers (like the Japanese have built), and I disagree about the Army, but otherwise pretty agreeable.
 

Riain

Banned
One way to increase the size of the RAN and RAAF could be to not introduce conscription in 1964 and instead boosted the contribution to Vietnam with materiel rather than men. Send tanks and medium artillery, a second warship and patrol boats and a second combat aircraft squadron rather than a 3rd infantry battalion.
 
One way to increase the size of the RAN and RAAF could be to not introduce conscription in 1964 and instead boosted the contribution to Vietnam with materiel rather than men. Send tanks and medium artillery, a second warship and patrol boats and a second combat aircraft squadron rather than a 3rd infantry battalion.

Well yeah, true, but Dominic is talking about doing it gradually into the future. You are right though. There are certainly some not implausible PODs that could have seen a stronger ADF today.
 
In terms of Army, IMO the army is strategically irrelevant and therefore mostly a waste of money. I don't say this with the sort of glee you might imagine my fellow inner city lefties would tend to, but I cannot see a situation where Army would actually play a role in defending us other through land-based missiles perhaps. Light infantry and useful in the context of the South Pacific, we should have some at least, but beyond that I don't see the point.
"Paying the insurance policy," was the traditional reason for the Army to exist, other than as a reserve network in case of Labour unrest. (Cathcart, _National Tuckshop_; the variety of research done into Monash's white army (which enlisted ALP men btw)). Inner city lefties I know seem to mirror attitudes similar to the rank-and-file of the older days: left enough to ask "whose army, for what purpose?," rather than "why an army at all?" "Why an army?," seems to be restricted to people who imagine thinking things will change them.

by mid century
I feel somewhat iffy on this point, given this is an alternate history forum rather than an alternate future defence needs analysis forum.

We'd be safer looking at Australia 1950(*1) asking how it could independently secure itself by 1980: historically we got holden cars, insurance premiums paid in blood, US reorganisational fads, and a failure to understand the geography of our northern neighbours.

Or looking at Australia 1975 asking how it could independently secure itself by 2005. Such a question would impact on Collins procurements.

Because by now we know who was a drunken idiot. Who couldn't run a department to save their life. What could be built in Adelaide at excessive stupid cost. Who'd fuck it up when there was a reshuffle / change of party. And to a certain extent who was corrupt in what ways.

yours,
Sam R.

*1: Perhaps 1951, to allow for the failure of the Communist Party Dissolution act, which seems to be a "turn" where the ALP were considered responsible enough to be allowed opposition, without secret armies being needed to be formed just in case they turned out to be communists.
 
You know I basically agree with almost every word. I mean, I do think if you're going to double the Navy then a carrier should be on the table, or at least a couple of ASW optimised helicopter carriers (like the Japanese have built), and I disagree about the Army, but otherwise pretty agreeable.
Helicopter carriers would make more sense to me, my issue with proper carriers is that to have a meaningful capability I think doubling would not be enough! To get something on the level of RN would be the minimum worth doing, IMO, and that is incredible expenditure. Moreover, given my views on our priorities I think that land based aircraft are probably sufficient, though that's not a view I'd stick to dogmatically.

In realistic terms I do not think much of this will happen and that we will be reduced to a peripheral power reliant on geography and the inherent disunity in Asia to keep us safe. Not a terrible outcome, but far below what we could achieve with good government.
 
In alternate history terms the easiest way to develop the kind of defence force I'm describing is to prevent WW1 from occurring. Despite what some in this thread of erroneously said, Australia has absolutely possessed a maritime perspective at times in its history - look at the Fleet Unit and the RAN plans prior to Gallipoli. Without that conflict, we would have fielded an incredibly capable navy that probably could have seriously hindered the IJN in the DEI had an equivalent conflict occurred. Added to the ridiculous demographic and economic consequences for us (mostly due to lost migration), Australia would without all that much effort had been an unrecognisably more significant power in this part of the world.
 
One way to increase the size of the RAN and RAAF could be to not introduce conscription in 1964 and instead boosted the contribution to Vietnam with materiel rather than men. Send tanks and medium artillery, a second warship and patrol boats and a second combat aircraft squadron rather than a 3rd infantry battalion.
Errr, you need material to do that and without an Army using that material, what is the point of it's existence? Australia is not a depot to be used to further the aims of the UK/US in the Pacific. The material has to have a reason for existing. The Australian Government is not in the habit of just buying stuff, on the off hand chance that it might come in handy at some point to be given to another country...
 
I agree that there needs to be an increase in the size of the ADF, but if we've got the funding to double it's size, I'd rather spend much of it on developing our manufacture base and our own infrastructure.The current coronavirus crisis illustrates just how much this country relies on it's foreign imports--much of which were produced using raw materials sourced from this country. Having lived and traveled in a number of Far Eastern countries, I've also come to realize just how backwards this country is compared to other more developed areas, such as the internet. Doubling the size of our military does not make sense at the moment because a lot of equipment would be obsolete pretty quickly. A lot more money would have to be spent to maintain and to get them up to date. I'd rather spend money on the industries that underpin it.
 
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Helicopter carriers would make more sense to me, my issue with proper carriers is that to have a meaningful capability I think doubling would not be enough! To get something on the level of RN would be the minimum worth doing, IMO, and that is incredible expenditure. Moreover, given my views on our priorities I think that land based aircraft are probably sufficient, though that's not a view I'd stick to dogmatically.

In realistic terms I do not think much of this will happen and that we will be reduced to a peripheral power reliant on geography and the inherent disunity in Asia to keep us safe. Not a terrible outcome, but far below what we could achieve with good government.

I guess it comes down to how you think of it, and what you're prepared to pay. If the idea is predominantly ASW then you can add aircraft like the F-35 to give limited capabilities in air defence and strike. If it's strike then I agree you need to step it up to a Queen Elizabeth. Cost? Works out to more than $7 billion in today's dollars to buy one, so yeah not cheap. And then you need the aircraft and the docking infrastructure. And having only one of anything is problematic. Better perhaps to have two smaller carriers optimised around ASW. An air group of 9 ASW helicopters and 6-8 F-35s, for example, would be a credible capability. Certainly a big advance on what we have. Still very expensive though. As for realism and what will actually happen, I guess we just have to wait and see.
 
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