Possibly the unrest that will come will cause a crisis in Tudor England, as in the event of war, England's opponents might get the idea of supporting an Irish rebellion
The Tudor Rose over Brittania
- Thread starter Yi Sun Sin
- Start date
James attacked, true, but only after pressure from France AND Anglo-Scottish relationship had cooled a lot since Henry VIII’s ascension in OTL.
Tudor Rose over Britannia Chapter 10
Madeleine rode on horseback as part of the royal procession. She rode close by her new husband Edmund, both of them just behind the carriage containing Eleanor and her new son Prince Lionel Tudor and Henry, who also rode on horseback. Although it was not easy for her to learn how to ride, she took to it well and eagerly took the opportunity to ride next to Edmund.
With Ireland subjugated through force of arms and the Duke of Somerset married, Henry decided that it was time for a royal progress. Preparations were made as soon as they returned to England and Henry thought it proper to also meet his sister Margaret and King James IV in Northumberland along the way. After a week, the Scottish royal couple had agreed to meet them at Newcastle and thus began the royal progress that would show to all of England the unity of the families.
Madeleine was initially apprehensive about her new brother-in-law the King of England, but she found that he was very generous to those he held affection for. He gave the Suffolk dukedom to his friend Charles Brandon while arranging for his marriage to the wealthy Lady Lisle, which was going to happen soon. Out of all of the places in Ireland that he could have landed to start his campaign, he chose Ulster since his brother was the earl and it thus became the first region to be secured by English troops. Despite her personal doubts about his circle of friends such as Sir Francis Bryan, Madeleine saw that Henry rewarded his friendship with important positions such as making Sir Francis master of the toils and constable of all of the castles in Hertfordshire.
Madeleine was also to experience Henry’s generosity. Upon her arrival at the English court, Henry introduced her as “my dear sister” and “a very powerful woman,” the latter being an exaggeration, but she was not going to reject it. However, others at court such as the Duke of Buckingham were less than enthusiastic about a Frenchwoman in the same space as they were. Henry caught on as to what they were feeling and decided to grant her English titles and lands also. She was surprised when both she and Edmund were called to his presence chamber, where Henry made her the Countess of Hereford and Lincoln, while adding the Earl of Cambridge as another of Edmund’s titles, along with lands in Wales and other parts of England that supplemented their already large personal income.
“You are too generous, my king,” Madeleine bowed lower in gratitude.
“Nonsense, Lady Somerset. It is only right that you be acknowledged here in England as you were in France, but you are also now a Princess of England by marriage, so you deserve nothing less. But these additional titles will pass onto my nephews and nieces when they are born, so they will know comfort from the moment they enter this world.”
“Thank you, my king.”
“Please, I am your brother-in-law. You may call me ‘Harry.’”
“Yes… Harry.”
They then arrived in York, where the people looked upon the future Duke of York. Madeleine was impressed at how devout the people were and even visited Pontefract Castle, where she was made aware of the dark history behind that fortress, which saw the death of a king and Richard III beginning his grab of the English crown.
“If only Richard III knew not to usurp the throne and make many in England angry, the Plantagenets would still reign,” Edmund said.
“But if Richard III did all of that, then your family would not taken the crown, and you would not have been born,” Madeleine pointed out.
They both walked on the walls of the castle. “This castle has weathered many low points of England’s history. I keep wondering when happy memories will overcome the dark ones.”
“They already have.” Madeleine placed her hand on his cheek. “We are starting it.”
Edmund kissed her hand. “Indeed, mon chéri.”
Madeleine could only smile whenever he spoke French. It brought out a softer side to Edmund, something that disappeared whenever he spoke English. However, before she could start speaking French, she had to speak English better than any Englishwoman.
Finally, the progress arrived at Newcastle, with trumpets sounding the approach of the king and his family. Although King Henry loved the attention, he also brought forth Edmund, who he stated was a hero for finally completing the conquest of Ireland. A large feast was thrown in their honor and many in the town looked upon not just the king and queen, but also the Duke and Duchess of Somerset with curious eyes.
Madeleine was warned by her friends in France that she had to be careful in England, for there were those who would not be receptive to her due to her status as a Frenchwoman. It indeed made her worry, but alongside her husband, she believed in her ability to charm the people of her adopted country and she was not going to let their skepticism influence their view of her.
Madeleine asked Edmund if she could learn how to hunt, which confused him. “Why do you want to know how to hunt?”
“Because Harry and the English lords love hunting. If I can hunt as well as they can, I am sure that they will not see me as another Frenchwoman.”
Edmund exhaled. “I understand, Madeleine. And frankly, I do not see a problem with that. But this is not France. The lords in England will not favorably upon a woman who does pursuits reserved for men.”
“Men and women dance together here in England, do they not? Why not hunt together?”
“Madeleine, I have been hunting since I was a boy. You never hunted before and you never held a bow or used a spear. It is a very dangerous sport, and if you are not careful, you can die or get seriously hurt.”
Madeleine was touched by his concern, but she needed to find some way to become more accepted by England’s people. “Is there any other way, Ned?”
Edmund thought it through. “What about hawking? You can still hunt, but it is not as physically strenuous or risky as hunting.”
The next day, Edmund, Madeleine, and both Anthony Browne and Anthony Denny all went out hawking and Edmund taught her the essentials before allowing her to do so on her own. Although it was a struggle at first, Madeleine felt a rush when her hawk caught her first prey and she kept at it for a few hours before they had to proceed to Newcastle.
At Newcastle, Madeleine kept up with her hawking before Edmund was able to obtain permission from Henry to observe the hunt. Naturally, Eleanor came along. As she gave birth to both the future Prince of Wales and Duke of York, she was allowed much freedom in what she did, and no one questioned her when she wanted to hunt or partake in other activities reserved for men.
Madeleine observed it all from horseback, with her new English lady-in-waiting attending to her. She rather liked her, whose name she discovered was Maud Green, who hailed from Northampton gentry and also spoke French.
“How do you like your new home, Your Highness?” Maud Green asked in French.
“Honestly, I expected nothing. But after coming all the way here, I find that there is indeed much to do. I just have to look for chances to engage myself.”
“Very much so, Your Highness. That is a way of thinking that I encourage in my children, particularly my daughters Catherine and Anne.”
Madeleine made herself familiar with the family of her lady-in-waiting. “I understand that you also have a son by your late husband, Sir Thomas Parr, who is currently a ward to the king?”
“Indeed, Your Highness. His name is William.” Maud was very moved that she took the time to know her family.
Madeleine nodded. “How much would it please you if I found good marriages for your son and daughters, while also arranging them all to enter the peerage?”
Maud looked at her with surprise. “You would do that for me, Your Highness?”
“You have served me well for the past few months, and will continue to do so for many more. It is only right that I repay the favor.”
“You do not have to do that, Your Highness.”
“Consider it as a gesture of goodwill, my first act of kindness to a very good Englishwoman.”
Maud bowed her head deeply. “You honor very much, Your Highness.”
Madeleine nodded before she noticed her husband and brother-in-law returning, along with their catch. “Ah, here they come.”
Eventually, the royal party from Scotland had finally arrived. Madeleine looked her eyes upon King James IV of Scotland and Queen Margaret Tudor, both her brother-in-law and sister-in-law respectively. The Scottish king had just turned forty-five while Margaret was about to turn twenty-nine, but both of them looked as active as ever. Accompanying them were their children, or those that survived lived past the cradle: James, the Duke of Rothesay and future king of Scotland; Alexander, the Duke of Ross and the spare to the throne; and Princess Christina.
Both the kings dipped their heads in respect to one another. Although tensions between Scotland and England still existed, all anyone could see were two kings bonded by marriage while exchanging smiles and hugs.
“Welcome to Newcastle, Your Grace,” Henry greeted King James.
“It is very good to see you as well, King Henry.”
Henry then kissed Margaret’s cheeks. “Dear Meg, it has been a long time, and you are still as beautiful as ever.”
“Enough with the flattery, Harry. It is Ellie who is more beautiful,” Margaret jested.
When the Scottish royal couple approached Edmund and Madeleine, King James shook his hand while kissing Madeleine’s. “Indeed you are fair, Lady Madeleine, and your husband has grown into a fine man,” the Scottish king spoke in French.
“Thank you, Your Grace.” She then met Margaret. “It is so nice to finally meet you, Queen Margaret. You have a fine husband and beautiful children.”
“You flatter me very much, Lady Madeleine. I hope you can bring the happiness that my dear brother Ned needs.” She exchanged a look with Edmund, who responded with a cordial one.
Although they were siblings, Madeleine could tell that Margaret and Edmund were not close with each other. That was understandable, as Edmund was four years old when Margaret went to marry King James and they had not seen each other since despite the letters sent between Edinburgh and London. That was something that Madeleine hoped to rectify, for they planned to be in Newcastle for the next two weeks.
I have two sisters-in-law who are queens. I should become close with one of them at the least.
Francis was surprised when he had heard that he had two petitioners from Ireland and that his chamberlain allowed them to make their petitions. However, he was nervous at what had happened in Ireland, as England astonished the French court by how quickly they overran that island.
“I present Cormac MacDermot, son of the former king of Moylurg, and James FitzGerald, Earl of Desmond,” the chamberlain announced.
Francis, as well as the rest of the French court, looked upon their Irish visitors with curiosity. He had never looked up a Gaelic Irishman, who were just as exotic as any other barbarian, while FitzGerald had the mannerisms he would expect of a noble of his stature. Both of them bowed their heads to the King of France.
“Your Majesty,” they spoke in Gaelic while someone else interpreted for them in French.
“This is unexpected. What brings you two gentlemen to France?”
“We have come seeking asylum in the court of Your Majesty, as we have both barely escaped with our lives from English arms,” the Earl of Desmond said in English while speaking through the French interpreter.
“And tell me, my lord Desmond, why should I do that when I currently have peace with England?” King Francis asked.
“Do you think that they will stop at Ireland, Your Majesty? Do you not believe that they have ambitions, both the Tudor brothers?”
King Francis sighed heavily, becoming absolutely bored. However, he was not one to turn away opportunities, for the Irish exiles might prove useful in the future. He spoke to the chamberlain. “Introduce these Irish gentlemen to Richard de La Pole. I am sure that he will find some use for them.”
The last de La Pole male, and thus the last inheritor of the Yorkist claim, was currently at the French court while taking a French pension after being expelled by the Holy Roman Emperor. In the event of a war with England, Francis promised the de La Pole pretender support for his claim, but that was not going to happen anytime soon. Instead, like the Irish exiles, he was going to use Richard de La Pole as assets in case the English king and his brother develop ideas that will be at France’s detriment.
“Next!” the chamberlain moved on.
Yes, the Parrs will have a role in this story, even though Catherine Parr will not be queen. And yes, Richard de la Pole is still alive.
With Ireland subjugated through force of arms and the Duke of Somerset married, Henry decided that it was time for a royal progress. Preparations were made as soon as they returned to England and Henry thought it proper to also meet his sister Margaret and King James IV in Northumberland along the way. After a week, the Scottish royal couple had agreed to meet them at Newcastle and thus began the royal progress that would show to all of England the unity of the families.
Madeleine was initially apprehensive about her new brother-in-law the King of England, but she found that he was very generous to those he held affection for. He gave the Suffolk dukedom to his friend Charles Brandon while arranging for his marriage to the wealthy Lady Lisle, which was going to happen soon. Out of all of the places in Ireland that he could have landed to start his campaign, he chose Ulster since his brother was the earl and it thus became the first region to be secured by English troops. Despite her personal doubts about his circle of friends such as Sir Francis Bryan, Madeleine saw that Henry rewarded his friendship with important positions such as making Sir Francis master of the toils and constable of all of the castles in Hertfordshire.
Madeleine was also to experience Henry’s generosity. Upon her arrival at the English court, Henry introduced her as “my dear sister” and “a very powerful woman,” the latter being an exaggeration, but she was not going to reject it. However, others at court such as the Duke of Buckingham were less than enthusiastic about a Frenchwoman in the same space as they were. Henry caught on as to what they were feeling and decided to grant her English titles and lands also. She was surprised when both she and Edmund were called to his presence chamber, where Henry made her the Countess of Hereford and Lincoln, while adding the Earl of Cambridge as another of Edmund’s titles, along with lands in Wales and other parts of England that supplemented their already large personal income.
“You are too generous, my king,” Madeleine bowed lower in gratitude.
“Nonsense, Lady Somerset. It is only right that you be acknowledged here in England as you were in France, but you are also now a Princess of England by marriage, so you deserve nothing less. But these additional titles will pass onto my nephews and nieces when they are born, so they will know comfort from the moment they enter this world.”
“Thank you, my king.”
“Please, I am your brother-in-law. You may call me ‘Harry.’”
“Yes… Harry.”
They then arrived in York, where the people looked upon the future Duke of York. Madeleine was impressed at how devout the people were and even visited Pontefract Castle, where she was made aware of the dark history behind that fortress, which saw the death of a king and Richard III beginning his grab of the English crown.
“If only Richard III knew not to usurp the throne and make many in England angry, the Plantagenets would still reign,” Edmund said.
“But if Richard III did all of that, then your family would not taken the crown, and you would not have been born,” Madeleine pointed out.
They both walked on the walls of the castle. “This castle has weathered many low points of England’s history. I keep wondering when happy memories will overcome the dark ones.”
“They already have.” Madeleine placed her hand on his cheek. “We are starting it.”
Edmund kissed her hand. “Indeed, mon chéri.”
Madeleine could only smile whenever he spoke French. It brought out a softer side to Edmund, something that disappeared whenever he spoke English. However, before she could start speaking French, she had to speak English better than any Englishwoman.
Finally, the progress arrived at Newcastle, with trumpets sounding the approach of the king and his family. Although King Henry loved the attention, he also brought forth Edmund, who he stated was a hero for finally completing the conquest of Ireland. A large feast was thrown in their honor and many in the town looked upon not just the king and queen, but also the Duke and Duchess of Somerset with curious eyes.
Madeleine was warned by her friends in France that she had to be careful in England, for there were those who would not be receptive to her due to her status as a Frenchwoman. It indeed made her worry, but alongside her husband, she believed in her ability to charm the people of her adopted country and she was not going to let their skepticism influence their view of her.
Madeleine asked Edmund if she could learn how to hunt, which confused him. “Why do you want to know how to hunt?”
“Because Harry and the English lords love hunting. If I can hunt as well as they can, I am sure that they will not see me as another Frenchwoman.”
Edmund exhaled. “I understand, Madeleine. And frankly, I do not see a problem with that. But this is not France. The lords in England will not favorably upon a woman who does pursuits reserved for men.”
“Men and women dance together here in England, do they not? Why not hunt together?”
“Madeleine, I have been hunting since I was a boy. You never hunted before and you never held a bow or used a spear. It is a very dangerous sport, and if you are not careful, you can die or get seriously hurt.”
Madeleine was touched by his concern, but she needed to find some way to become more accepted by England’s people. “Is there any other way, Ned?”
Edmund thought it through. “What about hawking? You can still hunt, but it is not as physically strenuous or risky as hunting.”
The next day, Edmund, Madeleine, and both Anthony Browne and Anthony Denny all went out hawking and Edmund taught her the essentials before allowing her to do so on her own. Although it was a struggle at first, Madeleine felt a rush when her hawk caught her first prey and she kept at it for a few hours before they had to proceed to Newcastle.
At Newcastle, Madeleine kept up with her hawking before Edmund was able to obtain permission from Henry to observe the hunt. Naturally, Eleanor came along. As she gave birth to both the future Prince of Wales and Duke of York, she was allowed much freedom in what she did, and no one questioned her when she wanted to hunt or partake in other activities reserved for men.
Madeleine observed it all from horseback, with her new English lady-in-waiting attending to her. She rather liked her, whose name she discovered was Maud Green, who hailed from Northampton gentry and also spoke French.
“How do you like your new home, Your Highness?” Maud Green asked in French.
“Honestly, I expected nothing. But after coming all the way here, I find that there is indeed much to do. I just have to look for chances to engage myself.”
“Very much so, Your Highness. That is a way of thinking that I encourage in my children, particularly my daughters Catherine and Anne.”
Madeleine made herself familiar with the family of her lady-in-waiting. “I understand that you also have a son by your late husband, Sir Thomas Parr, who is currently a ward to the king?”
“Indeed, Your Highness. His name is William.” Maud was very moved that she took the time to know her family.
Madeleine nodded. “How much would it please you if I found good marriages for your son and daughters, while also arranging them all to enter the peerage?”
Maud looked at her with surprise. “You would do that for me, Your Highness?”
“You have served me well for the past few months, and will continue to do so for many more. It is only right that I repay the favor.”
“You do not have to do that, Your Highness.”
“Consider it as a gesture of goodwill, my first act of kindness to a very good Englishwoman.”
Maud bowed her head deeply. “You honor very much, Your Highness.”
Madeleine nodded before she noticed her husband and brother-in-law returning, along with their catch. “Ah, here they come.”
Eventually, the royal party from Scotland had finally arrived. Madeleine looked her eyes upon King James IV of Scotland and Queen Margaret Tudor, both her brother-in-law and sister-in-law respectively. The Scottish king had just turned forty-five while Margaret was about to turn twenty-nine, but both of them looked as active as ever. Accompanying them were their children, or those that survived lived past the cradle: James, the Duke of Rothesay and future king of Scotland; Alexander, the Duke of Ross and the spare to the throne; and Princess Christina.
Both the kings dipped their heads in respect to one another. Although tensions between Scotland and England still existed, all anyone could see were two kings bonded by marriage while exchanging smiles and hugs.
“Welcome to Newcastle, Your Grace,” Henry greeted King James.
“It is very good to see you as well, King Henry.”
Henry then kissed Margaret’s cheeks. “Dear Meg, it has been a long time, and you are still as beautiful as ever.”
“Enough with the flattery, Harry. It is Ellie who is more beautiful,” Margaret jested.
When the Scottish royal couple approached Edmund and Madeleine, King James shook his hand while kissing Madeleine’s. “Indeed you are fair, Lady Madeleine, and your husband has grown into a fine man,” the Scottish king spoke in French.
“Thank you, Your Grace.” She then met Margaret. “It is so nice to finally meet you, Queen Margaret. You have a fine husband and beautiful children.”
“You flatter me very much, Lady Madeleine. I hope you can bring the happiness that my dear brother Ned needs.” She exchanged a look with Edmund, who responded with a cordial one.
Although they were siblings, Madeleine could tell that Margaret and Edmund were not close with each other. That was understandable, as Edmund was four years old when Margaret went to marry King James and they had not seen each other since despite the letters sent between Edinburgh and London. That was something that Madeleine hoped to rectify, for they planned to be in Newcastle for the next two weeks.
I have two sisters-in-law who are queens. I should become close with one of them at the least.
Francis was surprised when he had heard that he had two petitioners from Ireland and that his chamberlain allowed them to make their petitions. However, he was nervous at what had happened in Ireland, as England astonished the French court by how quickly they overran that island.
“I present Cormac MacDermot, son of the former king of Moylurg, and James FitzGerald, Earl of Desmond,” the chamberlain announced.
Francis, as well as the rest of the French court, looked upon their Irish visitors with curiosity. He had never looked up a Gaelic Irishman, who were just as exotic as any other barbarian, while FitzGerald had the mannerisms he would expect of a noble of his stature. Both of them bowed their heads to the King of France.
“Your Majesty,” they spoke in Gaelic while someone else interpreted for them in French.
“This is unexpected. What brings you two gentlemen to France?”
“We have come seeking asylum in the court of Your Majesty, as we have both barely escaped with our lives from English arms,” the Earl of Desmond said in English while speaking through the French interpreter.
“And tell me, my lord Desmond, why should I do that when I currently have peace with England?” King Francis asked.
“Do you think that they will stop at Ireland, Your Majesty? Do you not believe that they have ambitions, both the Tudor brothers?”
King Francis sighed heavily, becoming absolutely bored. However, he was not one to turn away opportunities, for the Irish exiles might prove useful in the future. He spoke to the chamberlain. “Introduce these Irish gentlemen to Richard de La Pole. I am sure that he will find some use for them.”
The last de La Pole male, and thus the last inheritor of the Yorkist claim, was currently at the French court while taking a French pension after being expelled by the Holy Roman Emperor. In the event of a war with England, Francis promised the de La Pole pretender support for his claim, but that was not going to happen anytime soon. Instead, like the Irish exiles, he was going to use Richard de La Pole as assets in case the English king and his brother develop ideas that will be at France’s detriment.
“Next!” the chamberlain moved on.
Yes, the Parrs will have a role in this story, even though Catherine Parr will not be queen. And yes, Richard de la Pole is still alive.
Jonathan1997
Banned
King Richard III died at bosworth Field and it was Richard II who was stabbed to death in Pontefract castle after he was deposed by King Henry iV of England. It seems Richard is not a lucky name when it comes to Kings.
Detect foreshadowing, I do.
Also thank you for the hard work, I am enjoying this thread way too much. Team Tudor all the way, may they finish what the Plantagenets could not.
Don't forget. Richard the Lionheart died from a crossbow bolt and thus allowing John to take the throne because he had no kids
Jonathan1997
Banned
All true but people for get the first Henry may have killed his brother William II and had his eldest brother Robert III Duke of Normandy blinded and castrated. King John did the same thing to his nephew after of Brittany who was the sun one of his elder brother Geoffrey of Duke of Brittany. We also have Henry iii and is regions kept Eleanor of Brittany the rightful duchess and Queen of England locked up for her entire life. If you have a look at the succession to the English crown it was only really Edward the First who had a clean succession to the English crown.
Very much so. The result of giving too much power to many princes without clear and unbreakable rules of succession
Jonathan1997
Banned
I believe it's more due to the nature of feudalism which still has two or three centuries left depending and how you interpret history. The big problem was that dukedoms like Lancaster and York and let's not forget burgundy where two Powerful and in somes cases more powerful than the King. The king kept on giving lands when they should have kept it for themselves. The Capations where successful due to younger sons dying and the lands being incorporated back into the Crown lands.
That's a pretty big difficulty actually because any mentally healthy parent would want all their children (and grandchildren) to have a good inheritance. And that's also what other notables will expect. If they see a king who doesn't treat his sons well, they will distrust the king more. And, of course, that also gives the other sons a lot of motivation to go against their older brother with little to lose.
Jonathan1997
Banned
That's a problem and the strength of this kind of kingship because the King has to be generous an open handed. He was also give out rewards to his loyal Lords. There's also a darker side like when Henry II seize the earldom of Cornwall and gave it to his son John by denying the daughter of his Welsh supporter the rights to the earldom. But by the time Edward III took the throne the line of succession was clear it's just when Henry Bolingbroke usurp King Richard II it grated a problem because it was the descendants of Lionel of Ulster second born song of King Edward III that should have taken the throne.
Jonathan1997
Banned
His support was not Welsh that was a spelling mistake his support was descendant from a bastard line of King Henry I of England.
Why was she rightful Queen? At that point England, didn't follow male-preference primogeniture and any source of claim acknowledged around that time - king's entail, baron's acclamation (remember who Matilda never was counted as a Queen) and proximity of blood spoke for Henry being the rightful King, who he was.
Jonathan1997
Banned
Is because Arthur of Brittany was supported by why the continental lords and John by Eleanor of Aquitaine and the nobles of England
If I remember correctly, Philip Augustus saw John as more easy to manipulate and thus signed the treaty that ultimately led to the ending of his support for Arthur
Jonathan1997
Banned
John defected his nephew Arthur so at that point there was no longer anyway way Philip II could support Arthur of Brittany. When king John killed his nephew the lords of the Plantagenets land in France looked to Philip as a better option.
But you said that she was the rightful Queen and as far as I remember Plantagenets had no crown on continent, so any claim to England was with John, not Arthur and why opinion of continental barons should matter more in England that English barons?
Thus reinforcing why John was one of the worst kings of England, more so than Edward II.
True (they might grumble “that man doesn’t speak our language and knows nothing of our customs” and also “who does he think he is trying to tell us what to do?” as Richard the Lionhearted never permanently held court in England and thus they were left to their own devices)
Well, the problem with Arthur was that he was not a man at the time of Richard's death, he was a mere boy and Richard ultimately chose John, barons acclaimed this - so John was a rightful king (that was before EI's entail introducing male preference primogeniture), so Eleanor wasn't a rightful Queen of anything.