List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

Marie might leave France and remarry, but her daughters stay put.
Legally yes, but I can see Mary of Burgundy having enough pull to get her daughters out. And I wanted two generations of heiress for the Plantagenets.
The Habsburgs are the only plausible candidates at this point. Matyas Corvinus was the only threat Friedrich III had to overcome in order to get Maximilian elected as kig of the Romans.
Kay, back to the drawing board with that section then. Any suggestions for Cecily's husband?
I can support that. But no Philipp the Handsome means they'll push Juana la Loca, not Maria.
Good point.
 
Does Burgundy make sense as the Margaret's inheritance if she's marrying the English king? I would've thought that she'd get Brabant and the low countries.
 
Few points on this:
The biggest issue for me is the idea of Mary of Burgundy settling for the Dauphin Charles - there is a 13 year age gap and to be honest Louis XI screwed negotiations after Charles' death and she opted for Maximilian.

Elizabeth marrying Maximilian (without his earlier marriage to Mary of Burgundy) is at best unlikely - there's little political advantage to either side
Mary to Louis XII - who is i assume otl Duke of Orleans - Orleans was forced to marry Jeanne of France when he was 14 - Louis XI isn't going to allow his cousin (and someone who is very close to the French throne and potential rival to both Louis and his son Charles) to marry an English princess at any point.
Cecily - not a chance of marriage to a Wettin - just out of the realms of the possible and little political advantage to Edward.
Richard marrying Anne of Brittany is entirely plausible subject to either war with France or a France unable to challenge the match (they ain't going to be happy but if Charles is interested elsewhere in terms of fighting in Italy or fighting in Burgundy then its likely the match will survive and go through).
Anne marrying the Spanish heir is plausible (though Catherine of York was the better match in age terms) - on her second marriage i tend to agree as above but its not out of the realms of possibility)
Catherine (as above better match for Juan in age terms) however James IV is plausible - though to be honest if her older sisters are free he'd get one of those (and given Edward's relationship with Scotland he switched James and his uncle Albany around as possible bridegrooms for Cecily for years.
Bridget does appear to have been promised to the church from birth.


The likeliest matches for the York girls - are Francis II of Brittany after he was widowed in 1486 (a single Elizabeth, Mary or Cecily at that point would be a possible) John of Denmark (all it needs is an earlier betrothal with him before his OTL marriage), Juan of Asturias (as mentioned), Charles VIII of France (if he fails to marry Mary of Burgundy or Anne of Brittany or his earlier betrothal with E of York goes through), James IV of Scotland.

For the following generation - if Mary of Burgundy marries Charles VIII - then a) Louis XII will move heaven and earth to marry her himself when she is widowed to ensure France keeps hold of the entire Burgundian inheritance (although she's 41 so he might be pushing for an heir on her) - no way is he allowing her daughters to marry a foreign sovereign in the circumstances - if he can't have Mary he will push his own remarriage to someone else through and if he gets a son in the short term the boy will be betrothed to Charles VIII and Mary's daughter failing that he will betroth her to the next French heir.

PS Everyone always assumes Charles VIII of France will die on schedule - which i think isn't necessarily likely - he died after an accident - different wife, not Italian war at that point and he lives.
 
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Mary, Duchess of Burgundy m. Richard III of England d. 1485(a) Charles VIII of France(b)

1a. Philip of Middleham, Prince of Wales b. 1475 - 1485

2a. Margaret Plantagenet b. 1478 m. Edward Grey, nephew of Henry VII

3a. Elizabeth Plantagenet b. 1482 m. Thomas Grey, nephew of Henry VII

4b. Louis XII b. 1487 m. Anne of Brittany b. 1477

5b. Anne de Valois b. 1489 m. Ferdinand II of Aragon

5b. Marie de Valois b. 1492 m. Sigismund the Old.

Richard III marries Mary of Burgundy but still usurps the throne.
 
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Mary, Duchess of Burgundy m. Richard III of England d. 1485(a) Charles VIII of France(b)

1a. Philip of Middleham, Prince of Wales b. 1475 - 1485

2a. Margaret Plantagenet b. 1478 m. Edward Grey, nephew of Henry VII

3a. Elizabeth Plantagenet b. 1482 m. Thomas Grey, nephew of Henry VII

4b. Louis XII b. 1487 m. Anne of Brittany b. 1477

5b. Anne de Valois b. 1489 m. Ferdinand II of Aragon

5b. Marie de Valois b. 1492 m. Sigismund the Old.

Richard III marries Mary of Burgundy but still usurps the throne.
Trouble is the timing is a bit off for the match to happen - your only chance is during Margaret of York's marriage really - when Charles' accepts a two 4 one deal with Edward - the trouble is why take the youngest brother when George is still free?
 
Trouble is the timing is a bit off for the match to happen - your only chance is during Margaret of York's marriage really - when Charles' accepts a two 4 one deal with Edward - the trouble is why take the youngest brother when George is still free?
I will do a list with that.
 
Mary of Burgundy m. George I, King of England r. 1482 - 1484 (a) Charles VIII r. 1482-1499 d. 1499

1a. Margaret Plantagenet b. 1475 m. Richard Pole

2a. Edward of Clarence, Count of Charolais b. 1478 d. 1499, died in the Tower of London

3a. Elizabeth Plantagenet b. 1483 m. Edward Grey

4b. Louis XII b. 1486 m. Anne of Brittany b. 1477

5b. Marie of France b. 1488 m. Ferdinand II of Aragon

6a. Jeanne of France b. 1491 m. Sigismund the Old of Poland
 
One of my very first alternate timeline ideas after joining this site was a timeline where Mary of Burgundy survived, and this is a much updated version of the Habsburg lineage for that TL.


Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1459, d. 1519) m. Mary of Burgundy (b. 1457, d. 1514) in 1477, had issue (a);
1) Philip, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1478, d. 1512) m. Anne of York (b. 1475, d. 1510) [1] in 1494, had issue (a); Elisabeth Jagiellonica (b. 1482, d. ?) in 1512, had no issue (b)​
1a) Charles, Count of Charolais (b. 1498, d. 1502)​
2) Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy (b. 1480) m. Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (b. 1480, d. ?) in 1497 [2], had issue​
1) Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1499, d. ?) m. Elisabeth of Hungary and Bohemia (b. 1503, d. ?) in 1522, had issue​
2) Francis (b. and d. 1501)​
3) Margaret (b. 1503, d. ?) m. Louis II Jagiellon, King of Hungary and Bohemia (b. 1504, d. ?) in 1522 [3], had issue​
4) Maria (b. 1504, d. ?) [4]​
5) Stillborn daughter (b. and d. 1506)​
3) Francis (b. and d. 1481)​
4) Charles (b. 1483, d. 1485)​
5) Eleanor, Queen of Spain (b. 1485, d. ?) m. Ferdinand VI, King of Spain (b. 1485, d. 1536) [5] in 1501, had issue​
1) Juan III, King of Spain (b. 1503, d. ?) m. Isabella I, Queen of Naples (b. 1502, d. ?) [6] in 1521, had issue​
2) Maria, Queen of Portugal (b. 1504, d. ?) m. João III, King of Portugal (b. 1496, d. ?) [7] in 1521, had issue​
3) Fernando, Duke of Béjar and Plasencia (b. 1507, d. ?) m. Teresa de Zúñiga y Manrique de Lara, 3rd Duchess of Béjar and Plasencia (b. 1502, d. ?) in 1525, had issue​
4) Alfonso, Cardinal and Archbishop of Zaragoza (b. 1509, d. ?)​
5) Isabel (b. and d. 1512)​
6) Pedro (b. and d. 1515)​
6) Isabella (b. 1486, d. 1501) [8]​
7) Anna, Queen of Poland and Grand Duchess of Lithuania (b. 1489, d. 1514) m. Sigismund I Jagiellon, King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania (b. 1467, d. ?) in 1505, had issue​
1) Sigismund Jagiellon, Crown Prince of Poland (b. 1510, d. 1511)​
2) Alexander Jagiellon (b. and d. 1511)​
3) Hedwig Jagiellonica (b. 1513, d. ?) m. ? [9]​
4) Sophia Jagiellonica (b. and d. 1514)​
8) Catherine (b. 1492, d. 1493)​
[1] The Yorks remain on the English throne due to Elizabeth of York's betrothal to Charles VIII of France remaining in place after 1482.​
[2] I couldn't resist giving Burgundy to Margaret and marrying her to Philibert ITTL. Also, Charles I of Savoy dies childless in 1486 so Philip II succeeds to Savoy much earlier than IOTL.​
[3] Elisabeth and Louis are children of Vladislaus II and his ATL wife Elisabeth of the Palatinate.​
[4] Maria enters a convent at a young age, as part of a promise that her father made to his dying mother.​
[5] Catherine of Aragon is born male ITTL.​
[6] Daughter of a surviving Ferdinand II, King of Naples and Maria of Aragon and Castile. She is the only child of her parents, as her father dies just a few months after her birth.​
[7] Afonso, Prince of Portugal survives ITTL to become Afonso VI of Portugal and João is his eldest surviving son by Isabel of Aragon and Castile.​
[8] Isabella of Austria-Burgundy was engaged to Vladislaus II at the time of her death so Max had to come up with a replacement real quick (he tried Anna at first but she was only 12 and thus way too young for Vladislaus).​
[9] I'm not sure who this Hedwig Jagiellonica would marry...suggestions are welcome!​
 
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[9] I'm not sure who this Hedwig Jagiellonica would marry...suggestions are welcome!

Her cousin Louis or his younger brother, if he had any.
Much depends on whether her father remarries and has a male heir (as her mother dies before she reaches marrying age), if he has one, than duke of Masovia option given by @Jan Olbracht is probable, but I would not exclude elector of Brandenburg (whom OTL Hedwig married) or even one of Charles V (TTL's) sons.
 
Here's my next draft of this previous post:
I'd love any feedback you have and if anyone has suggestions for Mary and Cecily's grooms, I'd love to hear them! Also, what titles to third and fourth sons get in Scotland?


Edward IV Plantagenet, King of England, b. 1442, d. 1504 married Elizabeth Woodville, b. 1437, d. 1495

Elizabeth Plantagenet, b. 1466 married Charles VIII de Valois, King of France, b. 1470, d. 1504​
Isabelle de Valois, b. 1485, d. 1489​
Alienor de Valois, b. 1488​
Joan de Valois, b. 1490​
Isabeau de Valois, b. 1491​
Marie de Valois, b. 1495​
Catherine de Valois, b. 1497​
Charlotte de Valois, b. 1500, d. 1501​
Marguerite de Valois, b. 1503​
Charles IX de Valois, King of France, b. 1505​
Mary Plantagenet, b. 1467​
Cecily Plantagenet, b. 1469​
Edward Plantagenet, Prince of Wales, b. 1470, d. 1504, married Anne of Brittany, b. 1477, d. 1499, Duchess of Brittany​
Elizabeth Plantagenet, b. 1499, Duchess of Brittany married Edward V (See Edward V)​
Margaret Plantagenet, b. 1472, d. 1472​
Richard III Plantagenet, King of England, b. 1473 married Philippa of Burgundy, b. 1476, Duchess of Burgundy [1]​
Edward V Plantagenet, King of England, Duke of Burgundy and Brittany, b. 1494 married Elizabeth Plantagenet, b. 1499, Duchess of Brittany​
John Plantagenet, Duke of York, b. 1496 married Joan of Guelders, b. 1500​
Anne Plantagenet, b. 1500​
Katherine Plantagenet, b. 1504​
Edmund Plantagenet, Duke of Bedford, b. 1506 married Anne Boleyn, b. 1507​
Cecily Plantagenet, b. 1509​
Peter Plantagenet, Duke of Somerset, b. 1511 married Katherine Willoughby, b. 1519​
Anne Plantagenet, b. 1475 married firstly John Trastamara, b. 1478, d. 1496, with no issue; married secondly Manuel I Avis, King of Portugal, b. 1469​
Isabel Avis, b. 1497​
Ana Avis, b. 1500​
Duarte II Avis, King of Portugal, b. 1503​
Maria Avis, b. 1506​
Joao Avis, Duke of Beja b. 1510​
George Plantagenet, b. 1477, d. 1479​
Catherine Plantagenet, b. 1479 married James IV Stewart, King of Scotland, b. 1473​
Mary Stewart, b. 1497​
James V Stewart, King of Scotland, b. 1499​
John Stewart, Duke of Ross b. 1503​
Robert Stewart, b. 1504​
Isabella Stewart, b. 1507​
Alexander Stewart, b. 1517​
Bridget Plantagenet, b. 1480, never married​


[1] Daughter of Charles the Bold and Margaret of York, became Duchess of Burgundy in 1485 when Mary of Burgundy suffered her third miscarriage
 
I've seen Earl of Mar used for younger sons in Scotland. Duke of Albany is another one, if it's available. If not, you could use Moray.
Great tree!
These are the usual titles for the Stewarts, if James’ brothers died as OTL. Albany is still occupied at the moment
 
A work in progress tree for the Hapsburgs in the 'Queen Twice Over' world. Suggestions for Eleanor and Catalina of Austria's kids would be much appreciated (Eleanor's by her second marriage that is).

Philip, Duke of Burgundy (1478-1506) m 1496 Juana of Castile and Aragon

1) Eleanor (b.1498) m. 1518 Manuel I of Portugal (1469 – 1521) (a) m 1523 Antoine, Duke of Lorraine (b.1489) (b)

1a. Charles of Portugal (1520-1521)
2a. Maria of Portugal (b.1521)

2) Charles (b.1500) m. 1522 Marguerite de Angouleme (b.1492)
  • Philip, Prince of Asturias (b.1524) m. Dorothea of Denmark (b.1520)
  • Isabella of Spain (b.1526)
  • Catalina of Spain (b.1527) m. Afonso, Prince of Portugal (b.1531) [1]
  • Juan, Duke of Burgundy (b.1529) m. Anna of Lorraine (b.1522) [2]
3) Isabella (b.1501) m. 1515 Christian II of Denmark (b.1481)
  • John, Crown Prince of Denmark (b.1518) m Anna of Hungary (b.1525)
  • Dorothea of Denmark (b.1520) m. Philip, Prince of Asturias (b.1524)
  • Christina of Denmark (b.1521)
4) Ferdinand (b.1503) m.1521 Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503)
  • Kids as OTL
5) Maria (b.1505) m. 1515 Louis II of Hungary (1506-1526)
  • Karoly of Hungary (b.1522)
  • Anna of Hungary (b.1525)
6) Catalina (b.1507) m. 1523 Ercole, Duke of Ferrara (b.1508)

[1] ATL eldest son of Joao III of Portugal and Margot of France (b.1516)
[2] Antoine of Lorraine's younger daughter by his first wife, Duchess Renee, who died in childbirth ATL.
 
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Miklos of Hungary (b.1522)

Why would he be named Miklos, no Hungarian royal used that name even, it seems very outlandish, Matthias after Matthias Corvinus is more probable, but I don't think that Louis would even want to honor his family's sworn enemy (Louis's grandmother, Elizabeth of Austria, reportedly insulted Matthias calling him "Wallachian sheperd", "peasant" and "stealer of the crown") by giving his son that name. The probable names include:
Laszlo/Ulaszlo (they are both versions of the same name, which is Ladislaus/Vladislaus) after boy's paternal grandfather, Louis afer himself, Sigismund after his great-uncle Sigismund I the Old, Philip after maternal grandmother or even Charles after maternal uncle, the Emperor (Charles is even more probable than Philip since there were two Charleses on the Hungarian throne before).

m 1523 Antoine, Duke of Lorraine (b.1489) (b)

I'm actually torn apart between wanting Eleanor's son to be duke of Lorraine, but on the other hand Antoine-Eleanor marriage remaining childless and Lorraine falling into Claude of Guises's hands is also interesting perspective.

Catalina (b.1507) m. 1523 Ercole, Duke of Ferrara (b.1508)

Given the fact both of them had children and Catherine a lot of them, I'd expect at least six living children, ideally three boys, three daughters.
 
Why would he be named Miklos, no Hungarian royal used that name even, it seems very outlandish, Matthias after Matthias Corvinus is more probable, but I don't think that Louis would even want to honor his family's sworn enemy (Louis's grandmother, Elizabeth of Austria, reportedly insulted Matthias calling him "Wallachian sheperd", "peasant" and "stealer of the crown") by giving his son that name. The probable names include:
Laszlo/Ulaszlo (they are both versions of the same name, which is Ladislaus/Vladislaus) after boy's paternal grandfather, Louis afer himself, Sigismund after his great-uncle Sigismund I the Old, Philip after maternal grandmother or even Charles after maternal uncle, the Emperor (Charles is even more probable than Philip since there were two Charleses on the Hungarian throne before).
I was trying to find the Hungarian version of Nicholas, thinking they would have prayed to St Nicholas of Bari for a child, not being sure that Louis would be strong enough to father one, and thence named the child after him, but I could go for something else. Anyone know what Charles is in Hungarian?
 
I was trying to find the Hungarian version of Nicholas, thinking they would have prayed to St Nicholas of Bari for a child, not being sure that Louis would be strong enough to father one, and thence named the child after him, but I could go for something else. Anyone know what Charles is in Hungarian?

Charles is Karoly in Hungarian and praying for a child to Saint not necessarily equals naming the child after him and Mary had some Lutheran sympathies.
Anyways, I think she'd remarry here to John Zapolya in order to protect her son's inheritance.
And Louis likely had no problem with fertility, he had fathered a bastard son.
 
I'm actually torn apart between wanting Eleanor's son to be duke of Lorraine, but on the other hand Antoine-Eleanor marriage remaining childless and Lorraine falling into Claude of Guises's hands is also interesting perspective.



Given the fact both of them had children and Catherine a lot of them, I'd expect at least six living children, ideally three boys, three daughters.
Karoly it is! I'll keep thinking about Catherine and Ferarra's kids, and maybe Eleanor will just have to be a stepmother to Lorraine's three earlier kids.
 
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