Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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Yeah if you leave behind the entire 7th divison and dont send half of it to greece to die they should be able to fight rommel rather succesfully with the excuse of them being refitted and instead send the armored divison churchill sent as reinforcements there since i think its a change from otl right? They can also send the tank brigade recently mentioned aswell altough the hope is that they get stuck on crete for some reason and you use them to murder the paratroopers rather easily so you dont loose like 15k british and 40k greek troops when you surrender wich would be enough to maybe do two infantry divisons and a tank divison maybe with either valiants when brits upgrade to victor or shermans from usa. Cause you cant change the otl greece campaign to be succesful without asb or a truly massive pod wich this is not.
And dont let o`connor be captured aswell when he was visiting the frontlines for some reason during the first german attacks . Cause that was issue for like a year till they stumbled upon montgomery to be honest.
And as has been said many times the thing limiting the british advance is logisitics and not italians really in operation compass atleast . But ending a week or even two earlier is possible if they do as you say and abandon unreliable or not needed stuff in the pursuit phases and as mentioned you might gain abit of time with faster assaults using valiants instead of otl matilda use at places .
This is also something that might be enough by wavell and o`connor to convince london that if enough logisitics is gathered forward enough positions instead of the greek campaign we can promise we will kick axis out of north africa as a alternative to it and actually mean it wich might make the diffrence .Apparently in early 41 there was a visit by eden to the middle east about alot of things but mainly about the greece campaign and local commanders werent thrilled at the idea at all and had to be talked into things . Here i propose that local commanders threaten to resign and stuff like that since i think they will know of the like 25 divisons sitting around romania and the deployement of a corps is going to literally acheive nothing but force another dunkirk evacuation but in a worse situation when the germans invade since the greek arent cooperating .
Or have the australians pitch a fit for some reason since they can see how pointless the greece campaign is going to be and they were the main force deployed by evoking the images of gallipolli could be another reason to cancel it. The brits themselves mentioned that 20 divisons would be needed to repulse a serious german attack and tough about 10 of them can come from greece and the brits would need deploy around 10 divisons as fast as possible wich is a BEF sized formation to be honest and thats not available and you would need complete cooperating with the greeks wich wasnt possible aswell and thats more troops that are in the entire middle east threatre and im including the east african campaign aswell.
And dont let o`connor be captured aswell when he was visiting the frontlines for some reason during the first german attacks . Cause that was issue for like a year till they stumbled upon montgomery to be honest.
And as has been said many times the thing limiting the british advance is logisitics and not italians really in operation compass atleast . But ending a week or even two earlier is possible if they do as you say and abandon unreliable or not needed stuff in the pursuit phases and as mentioned you might gain abit of time with faster assaults using valiants instead of otl matilda use at places .
This is also something that might be enough by wavell and o`connor to convince london that if enough logisitics is gathered forward enough positions instead of the greek campaign we can promise we will kick axis out of north africa as a alternative to it and actually mean it wich might make the diffrence .Apparently in early 41 there was a visit by eden to the middle east about alot of things but mainly about the greece campaign and local commanders werent thrilled at the idea at all and had to be talked into things . Here i propose that local commanders threaten to resign and stuff like that since i think they will know of the like 25 divisons sitting around romania and the deployement of a corps is going to literally acheive nothing but force another dunkirk evacuation but in a worse situation when the germans invade since the greek arent cooperating .
Or have the australians pitch a fit for some reason since they can see how pointless the greece campaign is going to be and they were the main force deployed by evoking the images of gallipolli could be another reason to cancel it. The brits themselves mentioned that 20 divisons would be needed to repulse a serious german attack and tough about 10 of them can come from greece and the brits would need deploy around 10 divisons as fast as possible wich is a BEF sized formation to be honest and thats not available and you would need complete cooperating with the greeks wich wasnt possible aswell and thats more troops that are in the entire middle east threatre and im including the east african campaign aswell.
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3 December 1940. Chertsey, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
3 December 1940. Chertsey, England.
Major-General Vyvyan Pope, Director of Armoured Fighting Vehicles, had come to see what progress Sir John Carden was making with the Vickers A23E1 mild steel prototype, known in the firm as Victor. The prototype had quite a task on its hands as it had to test out the combination of new suspension, new gears and new engine, as well as the new 3-inch gun and its turret. Having had the final drawings approved in May, Carden quite pleased with the way things were going. The finished wooden mock-up had been examined and passed, so work had begun in putting together all the various parts.
In the workshop, the hull and turret were ready to have all the other parts fitted. Designed with the equivalent of 4 inches of armour on the front and 3.5-inches on its sides, the sloped design to keep the weight down, had taken what Carden had done on the hull of the A10 to a new level.
Meadows were diligently working on an engine based on the Rolls Royce Peregrine, and they were making good progress, but Carden still believed it would need a Victor Mark II before it was reliable enough and available in sufficient numbers. He had however, deliberately designed the engine compartment to be able to take it when it was ready. Near the hull on a workbench, waiting to be inserted, was the Perkins improved diesel Lion. Charles Chapman at Perkins, with a bit of help from Harry Ricardo, had managed to improve its performance up to 425hp at 2200rpm, and the torque had improved too. Carden had hoped for over 15 hp per ton, but at around 35 tons, but he was only around 12hp at the moment, though the torque made up for this to an extent. The Meadows Peregrine would hopefully take it up to nearer where he wanted it to be. He still believed that despite being heavier than the Valiant, it would be capable of at least the same 20-24mph speed.
Pope could see the difference of allowing the Victor to exceed the limitations of the British rail gauge limit. At 10 feet wide it had allowed a 66-inch turret ring. Looking at the turret, designed for the 3-inch gun was, as he had seen with the wooden mock-up, it was still fairly roomy for the crew to work and fight. If, as expected the first batch of Victors were armed with the 6-pdr gun, then it would be very roomy indeed. The gun development continued apace, and the Vickers gun department was sure that it would be ready to go into production at the same time as the tank. Being prepared to start production with the 6-pdr was just in case it wasn’t.
Working with Sydney Horstman on an improved suspension system to deal with the weight and speed of the new tank had been finalised as what they were calling a ‘Horizontal Volute Spring Suspension’. It had successfully been demonstrated on an old A10 prototype, and Pope could see around the workshop the various parts of the tank’s suspension were already made, just waiting to be fitted. Carden explained that getting them made had been fraught, but eventually Vickers had found the right kind of sub-contractors who were up to the task of supplying the various parts, especially the springs themselves, and then put it altogether.
The basic reason why the prototype wasn’t yet built was because of the gearbox. David Brown Ltd was building Ted Merritt’s design, but there were teething problems. The work that was being done at Brooklands using a Valiant hull to test the system had been going well, but with any new technology, it took time to iron out the bugs. The last thing Sir John Carden wanted was to send off his prototype for it to simply breakdown at the first hurdle. The first couple of gearboxes that had been delivered to Vickers weren’t up to spec. David Brown Ltd were having the same problems that Vickers had had with the new suspension. The sub-contractors were moving into areas of manufacture that they were unfamiliar with, especially in relation to mass production and product quality control. A new gear box was expected in a couple of days, and that would have to be double and triple checked before being put into the tank.
Pope reminded Carden that he’d promised that the prototype would available for testing at the end of 1940. Carden looked around the workshop and the team of engineers working at full tilt, and thought that he might just about be able to keep to that promise. There was still 29 days left before the end of the year, but, being honest, he’d like to have the prototype in the company’s own test area to put it though its paces for a couple of weeks to check it for any glaring and obvious faults before sending it to Farnborough. He reckoned that if the men working on it were offered a couple of extra days holiday around Christmas, then they’d be motivated to put it together by then. Barring any major problems, Carden was sure that it could be delivered to Farnborough not long into the New Year.
On the train home Pope reflected on his journey around three firms. He’d been to Birmingham to visit Nuffield to check on their progress to the A15. They were doing well, fixing the problems identified at the testing in Farnborough. The production models would start appearing in late January, if all went well. That would mean Armoured Regiments would be able to deploy with it later in the summer. Thankfully there were enough Valiant Mark I* being built, as otherwise the A15 would have been rushed into service without sorting out its problems. As a replacement for the A13MkII it was certainly an improvement, with almost an extra half an inch armour, though with the same gun unfortunately. Pope thought against the captured Panzer III it would be at least equal, certainly faster. The problem would be if the Germans improved their Panzers in the light of the fighting in May and June. If they put a better gun on it and improved its armour, which it certainly could take, then A15 would fall behind, as it already had fallen behind the Valiant Mark I*.
When Pope had asked about increasing the armour to at least 2-inches, three would be better, and fitting the 6-pdr gun, the Nuffield men had been evasive, if not downright dismissive. Realistically they’d have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new tank. The Liberty engine was already near enough its maximum limit, with no real room to improve. A follow on to the A15 had been discussed, but the design team weren’t much further beyond outline sketches, the engine being the key problem. The Christie Suspension would also have to be improved to take the greater weight; the Wilson gearbox would also likely need upgraded.
Pope had also visited Luton to visit Vauxhall to check up on their A22 design. The first prototype was nearing completion, maybe a couple of weeks ahead of Vickers Victor. As an assault tank to cross a no mans land covered in shell holes and then cross deep trenches, it would have been perfect in 1917. To take on Panzer Divisions, it was, well, lacking. Designed still for the 2-pdr, the turret ring too small for upgrading, the engine at 350hp trying to push something the best part of 40 tons would make the Matilda II look like a thoroughbred. Just as with Carden’s Victor, the new gearbox was going to be great when it was working properly, and the armour was just as thick, but solid, no attempt had been made to slope it in any way. The 3-pdr tank howitzer in the hull, with the 2-pdr in the turret, all of it just seemed, regressive.
At least it wasn’t as bad as Stern’s monstrosity at Lincoln. Pope had taken written to the Minister of Supply to plead for it to be cancelled and the money spent elsewhere. No answer had been received beyond an acknowledgment of receipt of his letter.
NB text in italic is OTL, just to confuse you. Since most of this is ATL I thought the ordinary text would be easier to read. As time goes on, and events differ, this will be the more common system for noting differences.
I'm trying to be fair about the state of British industry taking time to get up to speed and quality. It'd be lovely to have the American capacity to design tanks, build factories and put tanks into production as quickly as they did, but that was unique to themselves and their own economic and political history. OTL the expansion of British industry producing lots of unreliable tanks because of the terrible circumstances, will be reduced a bit. I'm presuming that the Valiant (and Victor), like OTL Valentine will be considered reliable, the drivers in Vickers are the same. Vauxhall and Nuffield are still doing what they did. Competition with Vickers will hopefully improve their tanks over OTL, certainly not rushing them as they did.
I know the temptation from our perspective is just to cancel them and build Valiant/Victors. I don't think the Ministry of Supply will put all their eggs in one basket yet, but presumably fewer Crusaders (~5300) and Churchills (~5600) will be built.
Major-General Vyvyan Pope, Director of Armoured Fighting Vehicles, had come to see what progress Sir John Carden was making with the Vickers A23E1 mild steel prototype, known in the firm as Victor. The prototype had quite a task on its hands as it had to test out the combination of new suspension, new gears and new engine, as well as the new 3-inch gun and its turret. Having had the final drawings approved in May, Carden quite pleased with the way things were going. The finished wooden mock-up had been examined and passed, so work had begun in putting together all the various parts.
In the workshop, the hull and turret were ready to have all the other parts fitted. Designed with the equivalent of 4 inches of armour on the front and 3.5-inches on its sides, the sloped design to keep the weight down, had taken what Carden had done on the hull of the A10 to a new level.
Meadows were diligently working on an engine based on the Rolls Royce Peregrine, and they were making good progress, but Carden still believed it would need a Victor Mark II before it was reliable enough and available in sufficient numbers. He had however, deliberately designed the engine compartment to be able to take it when it was ready. Near the hull on a workbench, waiting to be inserted, was the Perkins improved diesel Lion. Charles Chapman at Perkins, with a bit of help from Harry Ricardo, had managed to improve its performance up to 425hp at 2200rpm, and the torque had improved too. Carden had hoped for over 15 hp per ton, but at around 35 tons, but he was only around 12hp at the moment, though the torque made up for this to an extent. The Meadows Peregrine would hopefully take it up to nearer where he wanted it to be. He still believed that despite being heavier than the Valiant, it would be capable of at least the same 20-24mph speed.
Pope could see the difference of allowing the Victor to exceed the limitations of the British rail gauge limit. At 10 feet wide it had allowed a 66-inch turret ring. Looking at the turret, designed for the 3-inch gun was, as he had seen with the wooden mock-up, it was still fairly roomy for the crew to work and fight. If, as expected the first batch of Victors were armed with the 6-pdr gun, then it would be very roomy indeed. The gun development continued apace, and the Vickers gun department was sure that it would be ready to go into production at the same time as the tank. Being prepared to start production with the 6-pdr was just in case it wasn’t.
Working with Sydney Horstman on an improved suspension system to deal with the weight and speed of the new tank had been finalised as what they were calling a ‘Horizontal Volute Spring Suspension’. It had successfully been demonstrated on an old A10 prototype, and Pope could see around the workshop the various parts of the tank’s suspension were already made, just waiting to be fitted. Carden explained that getting them made had been fraught, but eventually Vickers had found the right kind of sub-contractors who were up to the task of supplying the various parts, especially the springs themselves, and then put it altogether.
The basic reason why the prototype wasn’t yet built was because of the gearbox. David Brown Ltd was building Ted Merritt’s design, but there were teething problems. The work that was being done at Brooklands using a Valiant hull to test the system had been going well, but with any new technology, it took time to iron out the bugs. The last thing Sir John Carden wanted was to send off his prototype for it to simply breakdown at the first hurdle. The first couple of gearboxes that had been delivered to Vickers weren’t up to spec. David Brown Ltd were having the same problems that Vickers had had with the new suspension. The sub-contractors were moving into areas of manufacture that they were unfamiliar with, especially in relation to mass production and product quality control. A new gear box was expected in a couple of days, and that would have to be double and triple checked before being put into the tank.
Pope reminded Carden that he’d promised that the prototype would available for testing at the end of 1940. Carden looked around the workshop and the team of engineers working at full tilt, and thought that he might just about be able to keep to that promise. There was still 29 days left before the end of the year, but, being honest, he’d like to have the prototype in the company’s own test area to put it though its paces for a couple of weeks to check it for any glaring and obvious faults before sending it to Farnborough. He reckoned that if the men working on it were offered a couple of extra days holiday around Christmas, then they’d be motivated to put it together by then. Barring any major problems, Carden was sure that it could be delivered to Farnborough not long into the New Year.
On the train home Pope reflected on his journey around three firms. He’d been to Birmingham to visit Nuffield to check on their progress to the A15. They were doing well, fixing the problems identified at the testing in Farnborough. The production models would start appearing in late January, if all went well. That would mean Armoured Regiments would be able to deploy with it later in the summer. Thankfully there were enough Valiant Mark I* being built, as otherwise the A15 would have been rushed into service without sorting out its problems. As a replacement for the A13MkII it was certainly an improvement, with almost an extra half an inch armour, though with the same gun unfortunately. Pope thought against the captured Panzer III it would be at least equal, certainly faster. The problem would be if the Germans improved their Panzers in the light of the fighting in May and June. If they put a better gun on it and improved its armour, which it certainly could take, then A15 would fall behind, as it already had fallen behind the Valiant Mark I*.
When Pope had asked about increasing the armour to at least 2-inches, three would be better, and fitting the 6-pdr gun, the Nuffield men had been evasive, if not downright dismissive. Realistically they’d have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new tank. The Liberty engine was already near enough its maximum limit, with no real room to improve. A follow on to the A15 had been discussed, but the design team weren’t much further beyond outline sketches, the engine being the key problem. The Christie Suspension would also have to be improved to take the greater weight; the Wilson gearbox would also likely need upgraded.
Pope had also visited Luton to visit Vauxhall to check up on their A22 design. The first prototype was nearing completion, maybe a couple of weeks ahead of Vickers Victor. As an assault tank to cross a no mans land covered in shell holes and then cross deep trenches, it would have been perfect in 1917. To take on Panzer Divisions, it was, well, lacking. Designed still for the 2-pdr, the turret ring too small for upgrading, the engine at 350hp trying to push something the best part of 40 tons would make the Matilda II look like a thoroughbred. Just as with Carden’s Victor, the new gearbox was going to be great when it was working properly, and the armour was just as thick, but solid, no attempt had been made to slope it in any way. The 3-pdr tank howitzer in the hull, with the 2-pdr in the turret, all of it just seemed, regressive.
At least it wasn’t as bad as Stern’s monstrosity at Lincoln. Pope had taken written to the Minister of Supply to plead for it to be cancelled and the money spent elsewhere. No answer had been received beyond an acknowledgment of receipt of his letter.
NB text in italic is OTL, just to confuse you. Since most of this is ATL I thought the ordinary text would be easier to read. As time goes on, and events differ, this will be the more common system for noting differences.
I'm trying to be fair about the state of British industry taking time to get up to speed and quality. It'd be lovely to have the American capacity to design tanks, build factories and put tanks into production as quickly as they did, but that was unique to themselves and their own economic and political history. OTL the expansion of British industry producing lots of unreliable tanks because of the terrible circumstances, will be reduced a bit. I'm presuming that the Valiant (and Victor), like OTL Valentine will be considered reliable, the drivers in Vickers are the same. Vauxhall and Nuffield are still doing what they did. Competition with Vickers will hopefully improve their tanks over OTL, certainly not rushing them as they did.
I know the temptation from our perspective is just to cancel them and build Valiant/Victors. I don't think the Ministry of Supply will put all their eggs in one basket yet, but presumably fewer Crusaders (~5300) and Churchills (~5600) will be built.
After the initial phase, the camps + sidi barrani + buq buq + point 90, o'connor had the 4th indian division removed from his command.
Which he described as "a complete and very unpleasant surprise".
It was replaced by the 6th Australian division, but the change delayed o'connors attack.
By december 15th, british + indians had taken sollum, halfaya, and fort cappuzzo.
Assault on bardia had to wait on the aussies, and the matildas, January 3rd.
Tobruk January 6th to 21st.
Derna January 26th
Beda Fomm February 6th.
Send the aussies to sudan instead, or add them to o'connor rather than replacing.
There is no reason to believe the 4th Indian division couldn't have done the job.
Which he described as "a complete and very unpleasant surprise".
It was replaced by the 6th Australian division, but the change delayed o'connors attack.
By december 15th, british + indians had taken sollum, halfaya, and fort cappuzzo.
Assault on bardia had to wait on the aussies, and the matildas, January 3rd.
Tobruk January 6th to 21st.
Derna January 26th
Beda Fomm February 6th.
Send the aussies to sudan instead, or add them to o'connor rather than replacing.
There is no reason to believe the 4th Indian division couldn't have done the job.
Sooty
Banned
It's a horse but it's got the hump! You try dressing as a horse and still wear your tin hat!
No , the japanese threat become apparent in early summer 1941 not before that to be honest when they occupied french indochina and not before to london asfar i can tell ? And as said before the butterflys arent big enough for holding singapore i think but putting up alot better fight than in otl and delaying the fall by a few months might be possible . The main change is a proposed better burma campaign and maybe even a imperial reconquest of singapore and maybe invasions of thailand and french indochina.
And what do people thing of my idea of giving the last 800 to 1000 valiant mark I-s to australia and india to equip their own armored divisons with the idea of it being that they will deployed to europe ? But get diverted to burma in 42 ? Since that should be about two months of production i think so it shouldnt be massive delay to be honest and mark 2-s are coming with 6 pounders being the excuse to do this? This decision should happen in early 1941 , maybe spring i think?
Also the idea to keep producing matildas for indian and australian forces with the pom - pom gun ? You could do a matilda mark 3 maybe with a better engine to keep them in production? The perkins engine that they themselves designed wich was around 300 hp maybe earlier in the timeline might be possible?
And what do people thing of my idea of giving the last 800 to 1000 valiant mark I-s to australia and india to equip their own armored divisons with the idea of it being that they will deployed to europe ? But get diverted to burma in 42 ? Since that should be about two months of production i think so it shouldnt be massive delay to be honest and mark 2-s are coming with 6 pounders being the excuse to do this? This decision should happen in early 1941 , maybe spring i think?
Also the idea to keep producing matildas for indian and australian forces with the pom - pom gun ? You could do a matilda mark 3 maybe with a better engine to keep them in production? The perkins engine that they themselves designed wich was around 300 hp maybe earlier in the timeline might be possible?
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Maybe give General William Dobbie a chance to explain to Churchill the vulnerability(of an invasion through northern Malaya) of Singapore and Malaya?
Because in May 1938, Dobbie wrote to the Chief Of Staff:
"It is an attack from the northward that I regard as the greatest potential danger to the Fortress (Singapore). Such an attack could be carried out in the northeast monsoon. The jungle is not in most places, impassable for infantry."
And as he is now on Malta he can see the Matilda I in action there (as defensive force multipliers).
With a greater British victory in Lybia maybe have the Germans try to invade Malta (to relieve the Italiens in Lybia) instead of Kreta (see: Operation Herkules).
Thus prompting more/some armored forces to be sent to Singapore.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Because in May 1938, Dobbie wrote to the Chief Of Staff:
"It is an attack from the northward that I regard as the greatest potential danger to the Fortress (Singapore). Such an attack could be carried out in the northeast monsoon. The jungle is not in most places, impassable for infantry."
And as he is now on Malta he can see the Matilda I in action there (as defensive force multipliers).
With a greater British victory in Lybia maybe have the Germans try to invade Malta (to relieve the Italiens in Lybia) instead of Kreta (see: Operation Herkules).
Thus prompting more/some armored forces to be sent to Singapore.
William Dobbie - Wikipedia
Operation Herkules - Wikipedia
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Your confused?
Imagine how confused the German intelligence types were
"And what is this...it can count to 10 by stamping a hoof????"
I learnt of the pantomine horse whilst reading Enid Blyton's childrens novels and was quite taken with the idea. Till this day I consider it the height of British comedy
marathag
Banned
For movement in North Africa, and not pay attention to your logistical limits, you can call the German Speed 100%
But then have much of your armor broke down.
But what was left, was enough still to panic the British to get them to withdraw.
Much of Rommel's success was from the British reading his orders, orders that Erwin would toss in the trash and do what he wanted, and ignore logistics.
It worked out pretty well for him, and the DAK thru 1942
But then have much of your armor broke down.
But what was left, was enough still to panic the British to get them to withdraw.
Much of Rommel's success was from the British reading his orders, orders that Erwin would toss in the trash and do what he wanted, and ignore logistics.
It worked out pretty well for him, and the DAK thru 1942
allanpcameron
Donor
It's either a bit late or a bit early for pantomime season!
Allan
Oh no it isn't
Allan
Oh no it isn't
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