Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Peg Leg Pom]

So the Churchilll might end up like this?
View attachment 625661

Black Prince has always seemed to me to be a slow answer to the Tiger I arriving 2 years too late.

 

[MattII]

Black Prince has always seemed to me to be a slow answer to the Tiger I arriving 2 years too late.

350hp was inadequate in the Churchill. In Black Prince it was unforgivable.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

350hp was inadequate in the Churchill. In Black Prince it was unforgivable.

No doubt had it gone into production Black Prince would have had a better engine though even a Meteor would have struggled.

 

[kelgar04]

Black Prince has always seemed to me to be a slow answer to the Tiger I arriving 2 years too late.

The Black Prince to me always seemed like wasted resources that could have been put to other more effective projects.

That or the whole thing should have been dragged back to the drawing board and the designers who came up with it had their heads knocked together.

 

[marathag]

It was according to most a matter of the Merritt-Browne gearbox. It allowed it to climb hills like a goat apparently. It would appear in Tunisia and in Italy in places believed impassable to other tanks.

It just allows very fine control of the turn rate, without losing power to either track, from sharp to wide turns, or even spinning in place.
Hill climbing, that's all down to track design and gear ratios

 

[MattII]

It just allows very fine control of the turn rate, without losing power to either track, from sharp to wide turns, or even spinning in place.
Hill climbing, that's all down to track design and gear ratios

So would having a separate second gearbox for selecting low/high range work?

 

[RetiredCdntanker]

So would having a separate second gearbox for selecting low/high range work?

Not really necessary. In the Centurion, there were 5 forward speeds, and a top speed of 21.5 mph.
No real need for a low/high range.
And you really didn't need more speed than that, it was meant to drive cross country, not on roads.

 

[marathag]

So would having a separate second gearbox for selecting low/high range work?

Certainly. There were several tanks that had a high/low range.
Not all that different from heavy trucks, that have a two speed rear axle

 

[MattII]

Not really necessary. In the Centurion, there were 5 forward speeds, and a top speed of 21.5 mph.
No real need for a low/high range.
And you really didn't need more speed than that, it was meant to drive cross country, not on roads.

I was thinking low range for dealing with high inclination slopes and other ground a tank might normally struggle with.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

3 November 1940. Cairo, Egypt.

The Secretary of State for War, Anthony Eden, with General Wavell, were attempting to sort out the various complications of the Italian invasion of Greece, on top of their previous invasions of Egypt, Kenya, British Somaliland and Sudan. The consensus was that the defence of Egypt was vital to the whole position in the Middle East. Only if the Egypt was secure could aid to Greece, or indeed Turkey, be provided.

They agreed that any land or air forces sent from the Middle East to Greece could not possibly be strong enough to have a decisive influence on the fighting, and so far, the Greeks were holding the Italians off effectively. General Wavell had shared his plan to attack Marshal Graziani's forces in the Western Desert. In fact, the secrecy was so great that he would not inform even the Prime Minister until Mr. Eden could convey it personally. The possibility of information being leaked from Egypt to the Italians was so great that the planning was being done in the most secure way possible.

The promise made by Prime Minister Churchill to afford all possible help to Greece was being put into action regarding munitions, materials, and money as far as possible. The question was whether any more active assistance could be given. The problem with sending elements of the RAF was the shortage of airfields in Greece. The choice was limited to two airfields near Athens-Eleusis and Menidi (Tatoi), but these were both quite distant from the fighting. The airfields would have to be properly protected before squadrons arrived to use them, so General Wavell would have to send one heavy and one light battery of precious Anti-Aircraft artillery to supplement the very limited Greek resources. Taking three Blenheim squadrons and a Gladiator squadron would leave Egypt even shorter than they were already. A force of Hurricane fighters and Wellington bombers was on its way, expected in December, but until then, things would be tight.

With regards Crete, the 2nd Battalion York and Lancaster Regiment, who should have been sent to Malta, had been disembarked in Suda Bay, while ships were currently being loaded with a brigade headquarters, one heavy and one light A.A. battery, one field company Royal Engineers, and ancillary units, together with defence stores, and supplies for 45 days to reinforce the British presence on Crete. This was being done to allow the Greeks to transfer some of their own units to the mainland. The RAF hoped to be able to operate one fighter squadron for the defence of the naval base if required, but the only airfield on Crete was at Heraklion, some 70 miles east of Suda Bay, too far away for aircraft to give protection to the naval base. It was suitable for use by Gladiators, but would need to be expanded for more advanced aircraft. Work was begun at once on making it fit for all types of aircraft, and on the preparation of another site about 11 miles west of Suda.

In Kenya and Sudan, the forces of the Empire were expanding, readying themselves to push back against the Italians once they were fully prepared. An attack was due to begin in a day or two in Sudan which would be the prelude to the main event. The arrival of reinforcements in Egypt itself was allowing Wavell to make his plan to kick the Italians hard. Without the increasing strength this would be well-nigh impossible. The demands of Greece, and the possibility of having to come to Turkey’s aid, had the potential to weaken each part of Wavell’s capability, and that could lead to each part being destroyed piecemeal. Wavell urged Eden to emphasise to the Prime Minister that Egypt itself, with the Suez Canal at its heart, had to be the principal concern in London.

NB this is all as OTL

Roald Dahl's autobiography Going Solo includes some colourful descriptions of his experiences as an RAF fighter pilot flying a Hurricane in Greece...

 

[RetiredCdntanker]

I was thinking low range for dealing with high inclination slopes and other ground a tank might normally struggle with.

I only have experience with the Merritt-Brown gearbox in the Centurion, I'm not sure about other tanks the gearbox was used in.
Any way, gears 2 - 5 were in a reverse H pattern, with 2nd gear to the right and down, and 5th left and up.
1st gear was through a springed gateway, to the right and up, and was seldom used because it only gave a top speed of something like 2 mph. But it was great for climbing hills!

 

[MattII]

I only have experience with the Merritt-Brown gearbox in the Centurion, I'm not sure about other tanks the gearbox was used in.
Any way, gears 2 - 5 were in a reverse H pattern, with 2nd gear to the right and down, and 5th left and up.
1st gear was through a springed gateway, to the right and up, and was seldom used because it only gave a top speed of something like 2 mph. But it was great for climbing hills!

Okay, that sounds like it would work.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Roald Dahl's autobiography Going Solo includes some colourful descriptions of his experiences as an RAF fighter pilot flying a Hurricane in Greece...

I was stunned when I realised that he was one of the 12 RAF Pilots over Athens who took on about 150 German planes on 20th April 1941

Whats very sobering is Pat Prattle then one of the RAFs best Hurricane Aces was one of 4 RAF pilots killed that day while Dahl, a relatively green pilot (his first experience in Hurricane was flying it to Greece to join 80 Sqn) survived.

All this despite having been quite badly hurt in an earlier crash that should have grounded him.

 

[MarcH]

So, on the Churchill (A22), Crusader(A15), Valiant and Victor. The prospect of the Churchill being butterflied came up so it's only a matter of time until someone asks about Crusader.

So before I start I need to preface with this little snippi.
British tank philosophy and usage during WW2 was a bit of a mess. We have seen the muddle pre war in this thread already. During the war things got worse in some ways. Now I do believe that by 1942 or 1943 at the latest Britain was prepared to accept a universal tank, they nearly did when almost adopting on US produced tanks. That would have meant the Sherman and it came close enough to happening. Why then did Britain finish the war with a mixture of Infantry and Cruiser tanks? Because that is what they had. When Britain decided to keep making tanks they had to keep with what was available. Had there been a suitable universal tank ready to be built or just getting started then I strongly suspect that Britain would have at least seriously looked at the option of using only that tank at the very least.



Now both the A15 and A22 are in a bit of a tricky place right now. For one thing they aren't desperately needed to replace rubbish tanks like they were in OTL. In fact in TTL they already face very stiff competition and they haven't even left the drawing board. The problem is what do they offer that the Valiant sisters don't. They will only be built beyond either limited runs to produce training tanks or as Lend Lease for the Soviets if they can show some major benefits over not only the Valiant's but also the Victor.

So first the A15, this tank really has an uphill battel. Already the A15 has been sent back for modifications due to the tank being unsatisfactory compared to the Valiant Cruiser. How far the tank can be pushed however is up for debate, particularly as Nuffield will want to use the Liberty come hell or high water. The question becomes what can be done. Well, upping the armour to 60mm and turret ring to 60" means it matches the Valiant I* except it will be slower. Even if the Liberty is uprated to 410hp as was done on later marks of Crusader in OTL it will have less power than the Infantry Valiant let alone the Cruiser Valiant. So you then have to ask why bother?.

Now the A22. This tank fares much better on first glance. The armour alone makes it stand out and the fact it is being considered as a replacement for the Valiant rather than as a competitor stand it in good stead. Then you look a little closer. Yes the A22 has thicker armour than the Valiant but it comes at the cost of speed. Add to that the turret ring is likely to be the same 60" as the Valiant and it will only be able to mount the same guns. That all makes the A22 a sideways step from the Valiant rather than an improvement at best. There is alwaysthe possibilityof increasingthe Valiant's armour and if that happens then most of the A22's advantage is gone. The question then becomes is it worth making the A22 over the Valiant when the Valiant is already in production, the logistics train to support it will be very well established and all the mechanics etc know how to work on it. Why upset things if you don't have to.

Well what can be done to give them a chance then. Firstly they both need similar fixes, the first being a bigger, more powerful engine. That means the A15 won't loose too much speed compared to the Valiant Cruiser whilst being able to take more armour. The A22 meanwhile will be better able to match the speed of the Valiant Infantry whilst having the better armour. The second thing they both need is the ability to take a bigger gun, enter the 3" HV. Being able to take that gun or something similar would really push them over the edge compared to the Valiant's. Finally more armour, the Valiant's can have their armour increased so you may as well improve the A15 beyond the Valiant Cruiser and keeps the A22's advantage over the Valiant no matter what extra armour it may be given.

So there you go, to give them any chance, at least in my opinion, they need to be pretty different tanks to what they were OTL. Except they then run into the Victor, Britain's Panther. I know some of you have been comparing the Victor to the comet but, in my opinion, that is wrong. The Valiant is pretty close to the weight of the Comet already whilst having only 4mm less frontal armour for example. The Victor will be a step up from Valiant Infantryso the armour will be increased more than 4mm. I could see anywhere from 80-100mm frontal armour and 90-120mm mantlet for example. That, along with decent speed from what is realistically going to be a Meteor and ypu have a tank in the same class as the Panther though likely lighter, say 38 to 40 tons.
That presents a problem for any other tank let alone a hypothetical improved A15 and A22. Lets remember that by the time the initially modified A15 is ready to go to production, production lines modified and the first tanks produced it will probably be 1942, the A22 likely won't be ready until 1943. Remember, those aren't the super A15 and A22 I was hypothesing about above but the ones we (sort of) currently have ITTL. Given that and the likely date of the first Victor's being produced is late 42 or early 43 then they would be competing for production space and resources against the Victor as well. If they were going to be heavily modified to the super versions I mentioned above then you would need to add 6-12 months onto those production figures and by that point why bother with them as the Victor is fully embedded by then.

So no, I don't see either the A15 or A22 being made TTL. Well the A15 might, it could be worth running the production line for 3 to 6 months to build some training tanks while Vickers finishes work on the Victor, then those lines shut as soon as they can be to be the first ones to switch to the Victor after Vickers. I don't think either the A15 or A22 will become the basis for an SPG etc as right now Vickers are the only ones is doing the work on those types of AFV so they will look at using Vickers tanks as the basis so the Valiant. Now don't get me wrong I would love to see an A22 come along ITTL that is more Black prince with a Meteor. The OTL black prince just looks right to me for some reason but I can't see it. Finally I fully expected Britain to move towards a universal tank sooner rather than later. It nearly happened OTL and it ultimately the lack of a suitable tank produced in Britain that prevented it. TTL the Ciant could well have been that tank already and in some ways is, let's face it the Sisters have more in common than not. The Victor however will be a different beast I suspected and will make the leap in British service

So there you go, thoughts?

 

[MattII]

The Valiant I* has 60mm on the glacis IIRC, so I have a hard time seeing how the A15 is going to beat that, while still maintaining a speed advantage.

 

[MarcH]

The Valiant I* has 60mm on the glacis IIRC, so I have a hard time seeing how the A15 is going to beat that, while still maintaining a speed advantage.

Exactly, the Mk3 A15 in OTL had that much armour but needed the boosted Liberty to make sure it's speed didn't drop too much. That came with a whole host of reliability issues beyond what the A15 already had from the rushed development.
A new engine would sort it assuming it was powerful enough but that requires more reworking. Also how does Nuffield get forced into accepting that? Maybe with the threat of no sales if you don't get a better engine.
Only other option I can think of is Nuffield rebrand the tank as a Light Tank and say its for scouting, that means they can keep the 30mm of armour. Main issue is I don't see the army wanting a light tank still. Also that's a massive change in direction and I can't see that actually happening either, Nuffield using a Meteor might be more feasible.

 

[MattII]

Exactly, the Mk3 A15 in OTL had that much armour but needed the boosted Liberty to make sure it's speed didn't drop too much. That came with a whole host of reliability issues beyond what the A15 already had from the rushed development.
A new engine would sort it assuming it was powerful enough but that requires more reworking. Also how does Nuffield get forced into accepting that? Maybe with the threat of no sales if you don't get a better engine.
Only other option I can think of is Nuffield rebrand the tank as a Light Tank and say its for scouting, that means they can keep the 30mm of armour. Main issue is I don't see the army wanting a light tank still. Also that's a massive change in direction and I can't see that actually happening either, Nuffield using a Meteor might be more feasible.

Actually, according to this, the only part of the Crusader that hit even 50mm was the front of the turret. The hull was much less well armoured, no more than 35mm on the front, or a fraction over 40mm on the front of the driver's box. Also, the angle on the lower turret armour is likely to deflect shot into the hull if it's not penetrated, plus the turret itself only has a turret ring of 55.55", so it's going to be more cramped than a Valiant.

All in all, the A15 isn't going to compare well to the Valiant in any respect aside perhaps the top speed.

 

[Bougnas]

The A15 and A22 specs as they are right now are undeniably screwed unless changing over to Vickers designs is too long and tank needs are too high in 1941-42, which I doubt. The A22 met huge skepticism and was nearly cancelled, and the officers wanted to replace it ASAP even if OTL the failure of alternative designs and the improvements to the Churchill meant it soldiered on to war's end.

New non-Vickers tanks either need to be Infantry or Cruiser tanks with quantum improvements over the Victor, or must fill niche categories that Vickers can't compete with.

For the former, that would be anything able to carry the prospective BIG gun (17pdr or greater) as the Victor can't readily take it (though Vickers can upscale it again), or more than the 4" armor basis the Victor will apparently have, so 6" like the Churchill VII and the Black Prince, or any monstrous niche superheavy like the Tortoise class or the OTL Heavy Valiant spec (over 8" armor basis) that the War Office feels it needs. Incidentally most are tanks that Nuffield or Vauxhall did work on OTL, so they are options available to these companies. Naturally they could be different from OTL.
Another quantum improvement would be using a suspension type that is deemed superior to Vickers' Horstmann, assuming that the rest of the tank matches the Victor or is somewhat superior. One last one would be something with a truly bonkers engine that is even more powerful than the Meteor without making the tank too big.

Another of the niche categories would be the light tank: the British didn't actually abandon the class in WW2 even if the Tetrarch was not produced in large numbers (because it was already deemed insufficient). The initial orders for the Harry Hopkins were pretty substantial already. There also was the A46 spec made late in the war that called for a 16-21 ton tank with rather thick armor for a light and a 77mm gun. Such a vehicle could be reached by thoroughly redesigning Nuffield's A15 if the company is progressive enough.

 

[Fred the Great]

3 November 1940. Cairo, Egypt.



NB this is all as OTL

Please don't be offended, but when I read a post like this - with that note at the bottom confirming what I suspected as I read - I just wonder what the point is. Like, surely the story could be moved along without just repeating actual history without even the slightest of butterflies being seen?

 

[Asian Jumbo]

Please don't be offended, but when I read a post like this - with that note at the bottom confirming what I suspected as I read - I just wonder what the point is. Like, surely the story could be moved along without just repeating actual history without even the slightest of butterflies being seen?

Not all of us have the same detailed level of knowledge of OTL. I certainly don’t so would miss out on what is sometimes important background.
Also it’s amazing how often such OTL details can look positively ASB in retrospect so they do (often) add something