TL-191: After the End

This was a mistake on my part. I forgot that Joseph Kennedy Sr. was a Democratic Party operative. I have edited the section on the Kennedy family.
Ok, glad I found that. Though it probably wouldn't be unusual to find the Kennedys among the most liberal Democratic members of Congress and vote alongside the Socialists.
 
Ok, glad I found that. Though it probably wouldn't be unusual to find the Kennedys among the most liberal Democratic members of Congress and vote alongside the Socialists.

Would it really be that unusual? With the existence of a Socialist Party and a GOP collapse wouldn't the Democrats shift to the right? If so then a Kennedy defection might not be that unlikely.
 
Would it really be that unusual? With the existence of a Socialist Party and a GOP collapse wouldn't the Democrats shift to the right? If so then a Kennedy defection might not be that unlikely.
Well the Democrats ITTL are basically the conservative party but they would have sizeable center and center-left factions IMV. A little bit of a big-tent party mentioning it. In the books, FDR's mentioned as being a Socialist despite coming from an aristocratic family as well. So yeah there'd be some New Dealers from OTL being part of the Socialist Party ITTL due to their views. On that note as well, it could be possible where future generations of the Kennedy family join the Socialist Party. I'll lend you that.
 
What are these OTL Cold War figures doing ITTL? To list some:
--Konrad Adenauer
--Chiang Kai-Shek--The 2nd Sino-Japanese war occurs just as IOTL, but never appears in your posts during the 4th Pacific War.
--Clement Attlee--IMO most likely to be PM after GWII and oversee rebuilding of Britain as well as implementing social programs.
--Leonid Brezhnev
--Charles De Gaulle--Most likely never becomes a politician, so what's his life like post-war?
--Fidel Castro--Does make an appearance as a teenage partisan in the books. Does he ever become a prominent politician representing Cuba?
--Allen/John Foster Dulles
--Francisco Franco--He's not the dictator at the time of Spain's return to democracy. What becomes of him after the Spanish Civil War? Assuming he lives. Is José Antonio Primo de Rivera the one who became dictator and was later succeeded by Ximeno Domínguez?
--Ho Chi Minh--He's never mentioned during the 4th Pacific War so what's his fate in Japanese Indochina?
--J. Edgar Hoover
--Lyndon B. Johnson--Is he President of Texas?
--John F. Kennedy and the rest of the Kennedy Family--Though he's not president ITTL, is he and any of his family members prominent politicians or hold Cabinet positions at most?
--Mao Zedong--1st Chinese Civil War may still occur and a 2nd United Front may still be made by the time war with Japan happens. Communism might still have some following in China ITTL. Another thing for Filling the Gaps as well.
--François Mitterrand
--Imre Nagy
--Juan Perón--Assuming the 1930 coup and the Infamous Decade still occurs in Argentina, is he the strongman President he is IOTL and allows Freedomites and other Actionsits to seek refuge?
--Ronald Reagan
--Suharto
--Sukarno
--Josip Broz Tito--Would've ended up fighting for the Bolsheviks as IOTL after spending time as a POW but with the Whites and CP winning, that's bound to be different. More a question for Filling the Gaps but his life would wind up being different before and after GW2.

Don't have to answer it all at once but section by section.

Chiang Kai-shek, in TTL, was killed in 1929, during a civil war within the Kuomintang between his forces and those of his political rival in the KMT, Wang Jingwei. This conflict between the two KMT leaders began in 1926 after Wang, a supporter of the left-nationalist faction within the KMT, declared Wuhan as the new capital of China. Wang made this declaration as Chiang was engaged in northern China against a coalition of far-left and anarchist militants known as the Revolutionary Party of China; the Chinese Communist Party was never founded in this world, as the Russian Bolsheviks lost TTL’s First Russian Civil War.

Among those killed during the KMT suppression of the Revolutionary Party was one Mao Zedong, the son of a wealthy peasant family from Hunan Province who gravitated towards anarchism while a university student.

The circumstances behind Chiang’s death remain unconfirmed, even in 2021. Wang Jingwei was unable to reconcile with Chiang’s allies in the KMT, even as he was bolstered by foreign arms - from the Russian Empire, for the most part. After the eruption of war with Japan in 1934, following the Japanese occupation of Manchuria and creation of the puppet state of Manchukuo, Wang, fearing defeat at the hands of his enemies in the all but fragmented KMT, defected to the Japanese in 1940, where he became the head of a collaborationist regime based in Nanjing, a former center of power for his enemies in the KMT.

The National Reconstruction Army mentioned in this continuation was, among other things, the most powerful surviving faction of the KMT by the 1960s, when it started to recurve large-scale US assistance.

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Ho Chi Minh after an alternate life of worldwide travel as a writer, journalist, and organizer in the world of Vietnamese nationalists, returned to Japanese-ruled Indochina after the end of the SGW. He was killed by Imperial Indochinese and Japanese forces in 1951, after organizing and leading an anti-Japanese peasant rebellion in the Red River Delta.

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An analogue to Suharto (sharing the same name), was born in 1922 in TTL. Following the onset of Japanese rule in Indonesia, Suharto joined the National Guard, a collaborationist force, in 1943. By the beginning of the Fourth Pacific War, he was a lieutenant in the National Guard. He later participated in the mutiny against the Japanese regime, and was later killed during the brutal war with Imperial Japanese forces, in 1968.

-
Sukarno, an Indonesian nationalist and advocate of independence, was arrested by Indonesian police in the 1944, and disappeared while still in Japanese custody. The circumstances behind his likely execution have not been confirmed, even by 2021.
 
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Chiang Kai-shek, in TTL, was killed in 1929, during a civil war within the Kuomintang between his forces and those of his political rival in the KMT, Wang Jingwei. This conflict between the two KMT leaders began in 1926 after Wang, a supporter of the left-nationalist faction within the KMT, declared Wuhan as the new capital of China. Wang made this declaration as Chiang was engaged in northern China against a coalition of far-left and anarchist militants known as the Revolutionary Party of China; the Chinese Communist Party was never founded in this world, as the Russian Bolsheviks lost TTL’s First Russian Civil War.

Among those killed during the KMT suppression of the Revolutionary Party was one Mao Zedong, the son of a wealthy peasant family from Hunan Province who gravitated towards anarchism while a university student.

The circumstances behind Chiang’s death remain unconfirmed, even in 2021. Wang Jingwei was unable to reconcile with Chiang’s allies in the KMT, even as he was bolstered by foreign arms - from the Russian Empire, for the most part. After the eruption of war with Japan in 1934, following the Japanese occupation of Manchuria and creation of the puppet state of Manchukuo, Wang, fearing defeat at the hands of his enemies in the all but fragmented KMT, defected to the Japanese in 1940, where he became the head of a collaborationist regime based in Nanjing, a former center of power for his enemies in the KMT.

The National Reconstruction Army mentioned in this continuation was, among other things, the most powerful surviving faction of the KMT by the 1960s, when it started to recurve large-scale US assistance.

-
Ho Chi Minh after an alternate life of worldwide travel as a writer, journalist, and organizer in the world of Vietnamese nationalists, returned to Japanese-ruled Indochina after the end of the SGW. He was killed by Imperial Indochinese and Japanese forces in 1951, after organizing and leading an anti-Japanese peasant rebellion in the Red River Delta.

-
An analogue to Suharto (sharing the same name), was born in 1922 in TTL. Following the onset of Japanese rule in Indonesia, Suharto joined the National Guard, a collaborationist force, in 1943. By the beginning of the Fourth Pacific War, he was a lieutenant in the National Guard. He later participated in the mutiny against the Japanese regime, and was later killed during the brutal war with Imperial Japanese forces, in 1968.

-
Sukarno, an Indonesian nationalist and advocate of independence, was arrested by Indonesian police in the 1944, and disappeared while still in Japanese custody. The circumstances behind his likely execution have not been confirmed, even by 2021.
Thanks. On that note, what becomes of Wang Jingwei ITTL?
 
What are these OTL Cold War figures doing ITTL? To list some:
--Konrad Adenauer
--Chiang Kai-Shek--The 2nd Sino-Japanese war occurs just as IOTL, but never appears in your posts during the 4th Pacific War.
--Clement Attlee--IMO most likely to be PM after GWII and oversee rebuilding of Britain as well as implementing social programs.
--Leonid Brezhnev
--Charles De Gaulle--Most likely never becomes a politician, so what's his life like post-war?
--Fidel Castro--Does make an appearance as a teenage partisan in the books. Does he ever become a prominent politician representing Cuba?
--Allen/John Foster Dulles
--Francisco Franco--He's not the dictator at the time of Spain's return to democracy. What becomes of him after the Spanish Civil War? Assuming he lives. Is José Antonio Primo de Rivera the one who became dictator and was later succeeded by Ximeno Domínguez?
--Ho Chi Minh--He's never mentioned during the 4th Pacific War so what's his fate in Japanese Indochina?
--J. Edgar Hoover
--Lyndon B. Johnson--Is he President of Texas?
--John F. Kennedy and the rest of the Kennedy Family--Though he's not president ITTL, is he and any of his family members prominent politicians or hold Cabinet positions at most?
--Mao Zedong--1st Chinese Civil War may still occur and a 2nd United Front may still be made by the time war with Japan happens. Communism might still have some following in China ITTL. Another thing for Filling the Gaps as well.
--François Mitterrand
--Imre Nagy
--Juan Perón--Assuming the 1930 coup and the Infamous Decade still occurs in Argentina, is he the strongman President he is IOTL and allows Freedomites and other Actionsits to seek refuge?
--Ronald Reagan
--Suharto
--Sukarno
--Josip Broz Tito--Would've ended up fighting for the Bolsheviks as IOTL after spending time as a POW but with the Whites and CP winning, that's bound to be different. More a question for Filling the Gaps but his life would wind up being different before and after GW2.

Don't have to answer it all at once but section by section.

Konrad Adenauer was active in the Catholic Center Party, especially during the interwar years. He enjoyed good political relations with a number of prominent Social Democratic activists. He remained a strong advocate for a continued triple alliance between the German Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the United States. Adenauer retired from politics after the end of the SGW.

-
Clement Attlee, between his activism with the Labour movement and antiwar views, did not proposer under interwar Britain’s Silver Shirt coalition. After a brief imprisonment, he left permanently for Australia. While Attlee never held power, he was a mentor to a fair number of left-wing British exiles who later played prominent roles in Australia’s own postwar labour movement.

-
Leonid Brezhnev, a factory worker in Kamianske, in the Kingdom of Ukraine, survived the SGW, although he never left either his factory job or Kamianske itself, for anything more than short vacations.

-
Charles DeGaulle, a survivor of the FGW, became an advocate of modernizing the French military, both in terms of technology and tactics. This early advocacy helped to advance his career under the monarchial fascist regime that came to power in the country during the interwar years. Although DeGaulle had mixed feelings, at best, on the new regime, he accepted it as necessary for France to successfully overcome Germany. DeGaulle served, in a position of command, on the Western Front during the SGW, and also served in a position of command during the Entente’s retreat from Germany.

DeGaulle was personally shattered by the German superbombing of Paris, the loss of the SGW, and the terms of the Treaty of Aachen, which would result in the German military occupation of northwestern France for two decades. DeGaulle would subsequently leave France; unlike other French emigrants from the postwar years (most of whom preferred Quebec), DeGaulle would accept a Brazilian offer to serve as a consultant for the Empire of Brazil’s own postwar modernization of its armored forces. DeGaulle would spend the rest of his life in Brazilian exile.

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Francois Mitterrand doesn’t exist in TTL.

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Imre Nagy, as in our world, was taken prisoner on the Eastern Front by the Russians during the FGW and subsequently became involved in the First Russian Civil War, in the side of the Communists. He was killed during the Battle of Tsaritsyn.

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Josip Broz was killed while fighting on the Eastern Front in the Austro-Hungarian army, during a skirmish with Russian forces in Ukraine.

-
Francisco Franco, while a key member of the military junta that governed Spain after TTL’s Spanish Civil War, was only himself one part of what developed into a revolving military dictatorship. This arrangement lasted until the end of military rule in TTL’s 1970s. Franco never served as head of state.

-
Juan Perón was taken prisoner by the Brazilians in the FGW. After the war, he attempted to begin a political career, although he was not successful in this regard. Perón was retired from military service (involuntarily) by the time the SGW.
 
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Konrad Adenauer was active in the Catholic Center Party, especially during the interwar years. He enjoyed good political relations with a number of prominent Social Democratic activists. He remained a strong advocate for a continued triple alliance between the German Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, and the United States. Adenauer retired from politics after the end of the SGW.

-
Clement Attlee, between his activism with the Labour movement and antiwar views, did not proposer under interwar Britain’s Silver Shirt coalition. After a brief imprisonment, he left permanently for Australia. While Attlee never held power, he was a mentor to a fair number of left-wing British exiles who later played prominent roles in Australia’s own postwar labour movement.

-
Leonid Brezhnev, a factory worker in Kamianske, in the Kingdom of Ukraine, survived the SGW, although he never left either his factory job or Kamianske itself, for anything more than short vacations.

-
Charles DeGaulle, a survivor of the FGW, became an advocate of modernizing the French military, both in terms of technology and tactics. This early advocacy helped to advance his career under the monarchial fascist regime that came to power in the country during the interwar years. Although DeGaulle had mixed feelings, at best, on the new regime, he accepted it as necessary for France to successfully overcome Germany. DeGaulle served, in a position of command, on the Western Front during the SGW, and also served in a position of command during the Entente’s retreat from Germany.

DeGaulle was personally shattered by the German superbombing of Paris, the loss of the SGW, and the terms of the Treaty of Aachen, which would result in the German military occupation of northwestern France for two decades. DeGaulle would subsequently leave France; unlike other French emigrants from the postwar years (most of whom preferred Quebec), DeGaulle would accept a Brazilian offer to serve as a consultant for the Empire of Brazil’s own postwar modernization of its armored forces. DeGaulle would spend the rest of his life in Brazilian exile.

-
Francois Mitterrand doesn’t exist in TTL.

-
Imre Nagy, as in our world, was taken prisoner on the Eastern Front by the Russians during the FGW and subsequently became involved in the First Russian Civil War, in the side of the Communists. He was killed during the Battle of Tsaritsyn.

-
Josip Broz was killed while fighting on the Eastern Front in the Austro-Hungarian army, during a skirmish with Russian forces in Ukraine.

-
Francisco Franco, while a key member of the military junta that governed Spain after TTL’s Spanish Civil War, was only himself one part of what developed into a revolving military dictatorship. This arrangement lasted until the end of military rule in TTL’s 1970s. Franco never served as head of state.

-
Juan Perón was taken prisoner by the Brazilians in the FGW. After the war, he attempted to begin a political career, although he was not successful in this regard. Perón was retired from military service (involuntarily) by the time the SGW.
Thanks for finishing up this list. I was wondering what became of the British Labour Party and I'm sure they're banned by the Silver Shirts/Conservatives by the looks of it until the end of GW2. The Liberal Party might get the boot as well. Question in regards to Argentina, assuming the 1930 coup happens, which is in itself a result of product of the Great Depression, how's Argentina doing economically? Are they in a constant cycle of boom-bust and long-term economic decline?
 
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Who's the Kaiser after Wilhelm III passes away? Is it his second-eldest son Louis Ferdinand? IOTL his oldest son Prince Wilhelm of Prussia, who later died fighting in WWII, renounced his succession rights and for his future children in order to marry a woman of minor nobility--a marriage which Kaiser Billy strongly disapproved. In my head-cannon, I see this as sort of the TTL version of Edward VIII's abdication crisis but with more media coverage as well as long-lasting effects on family relations.
 
Speaking of Edward VIII, what does he do after the war? Does he abdicate and go into exile? It's unlikely the British public would want him around any longer due to being involved in the war and among the "guilty men" who brought the country into ruin--not to mention his far-right leanings as well. It won't be like Japan where the public sees their monarch as a divine figure.
 
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Thanks. On that note, what becomes of Wang Jingwei ITTL?
Wang Jingwei lived somewhat longer than in our world. Unlike in our world, he was not wounded in an assassination attempt in 1939; in TTL, he lived until 1955, as the collaborationist president of the Japanese-controlled areas of China: the civilian face of the Japanese military occupation.
 
Wang Jingwei lived somewhat longer than in our world. Unlike in our world, he was not wounded in an assassination attempt in 1939; in TTL, he lived until 1955, as the collaborationist president of the Japanese-controlled areas of China: the civilian face of the Japanese military occupation.
By the way, when does the 2nd Sino-Japanese war 'end'? It's going to be a long drawn out war attrition and Japan will only conquer part of Mainland China as evident by history and by the maps on here.
 
Ah, so it just lasted until then. But there must've been long stalemates in between the end of the Second Great War and the beginning of the 4th Pacific War I assume as evident.
The conflict continued in China between 1944 and the outbreak of the Fourth Pacific War, albeit more severely on some fronts than on others. The Japanese were never in a position, however, of ever being able to successfully consolidate their hold over the areas of China that they did control.
 
Who's the Kaiser after Wilhelm III passes away? Is it his second-eldest son Louis Ferdinand? IOTL his oldest son Prince Wilhelm of Prussia, who later died fighting in WWII, renounced his succession rights and for his future children in order to marry a woman of minor nobility--a marriage which Kaiser Billy strongly disapproved. In my head-cannon, I see this as sort of the TTL version of Edward VIII's abdication crisis but with more media coverage as well as long-lasting effects on family relations.

Wilhelm III is succeeded by his eldest son, who reigns as Kaiser Wilhelm IV.
 
Speaking of Edward VIII, what does he do after the war? Does he abdicate and go into exile? It's unlikely the British public would want him around any longer due to being involved in the war and among the "guilty men" who brought the country into ruin--not to mention his far-right leanings as well. It won't be like Japan where the public sees their monarch as a divine figure.

After the end of the SGW, Edward VIII abdicates, but does not go into exile.
 
Thanks for finishing up this list. I was wondering what became of the British Labour Party and I'm sure they're banned by the Silver Shirts/Conservatives by the looks of it until the end of GW2. The Liberal Party might get the boot as well. Question in regards to Argentina, assuming the 1930 coup happens, which is in itself a result of product of the Great Depression, how's Argentina doing economically? Are they in a constant cycle of boom-bust and long-term economic decline?

In Argentina, the OTL 1930 coup did not occur in TTL, although there was political unrest related to the Business Collapse.

By 2021, Argentina is relatively economically stable. The country never experienced military rule analogous to OTL.

However, Argentina remains somewhat of a revanchist power. Many in the country have not accepted the territorial losses to Brazil, Paraguay, and Chile that occurred during the Twentieth Century. Although part of the Brazilian alliance system that dominated most of South America after the end of the SGW, the Empire of Brazil is not particularly popular in Argentina, as of 2021.

Argentina is also the most anti-US country in the Western Hemisphere, due to the continued US military alliance with Chile.
 
After the end of the SGW, Edward VIII abdicates, but does not go into exile.
What's his relationship with the rest of the royal family? Is he seen as the black sheep of the family to the rest and have limited contact with him? Based on what's stated, his brother Albert becomes George VI (or Albert I as a few speculate on the Photos thread) and Elizabeth II eventually assumes the throne once he passes, I assume.
 
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