TL-191: After the End

I'd like to ask about an unusual topic that actually reaches back to the Time Gap between How Few Remain and the Great War. Turtledove doesn't mention any character eating breakfast cereal, so it makes me wonder about this: was there a "healthy lifestyle movement" in the US in the 1890s like in OTL? If not, that pretty much means that John Harvey Kellogg, who was ten when the PoD happened, either didn't become a doctor or did but was regarded as a bit of a quack. Any opinions regarding the cereal mogul that wasn't?

And if it's the case that there was no healthy lifestyle movement, then the lack of Corn Flakes isn't the only thing significantly changed.

Okay, this is actually a pretty interesting point of divergence. What do Americans and Confederates eat for breakfast if cereal gets butterflied away?

Without the healthy lifestyle movement, there's no moral panic regarding male masturbation that emerged out of it. The moral panic popularized circumcision in the US under the belief that getting cut would "cure" that "problem", and the momentum continues today. So, the question becomes this: In 2021 TTL, are most American men uncircumcised? Or has something else caused circumcising boys to take place? Did someone in Germany figure out that male circumcision helps reduce the transmission of Fleischer’s Syndrome, and did that spark non-religious elective surgery?

Okay, this is starting to get a little weird now.

And speaking of circumcision...Flora Blackford is a secular Jew married to a non-Jewish man. When she gave birth to the boys, there must have been a little pressure from the Hamburgers to at least do a little something to acknowledge the fact that the boys were half-Jewish. Might Flora have given in to keep peace in the family and called the mohel? Or did future President Blackford get to keep what he was born with?

Aaaaand here is where you lose me. Try ending your posts before you go on a one-way trip to Wacky Land.
 
On that note, what the closest thing to Doctor Who ITTL?
What about the life and legacy of William Hartnell (born in 1908), Patrick Troughton (born in 1920), Jon Pertwee (born in 1919), and Gene Roddenberry (born in 1921) in TTL since the first three never got to play the Doctor and Roddenberry never created Star Trek.

While one of the first three (or two or all) could have been killed in one of the three superbombings of the UK or in combat during SGW and if one or two or all survived the war I have a feeling that they wouldn't have had happy lives after the conflict.

Roddenberry on other hand could've fought in the SGW on either the side, in the USA or CSA (assuming that his family doesn't move from El Paso to Los Angles) and how his life turns out depends on which side he fights for (assuming he isn't killed during the war).
 
as of TTL’s 2021, there is no close equivalent series or franchise to Doctor Who
I wrote that question on the first three Doctor actors (plus Roddenberry) because I was curious to see how their lives turned out.

Speaking of Doctor Who, I'm also curious to see how the life of Sydney Newman (born in April 1917) turned out? Since he most likely grew up during the US occupation of Canada, which would most likely affect his ability to enter the film and TV industry.
 
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It's been awhile since I've read through this, but from what I remember I kind of wished for something more interesting then just turning Syndicalist Japan into North Korea.

Otherwise I quite enjoyed it.
 
Even by the end of the JWR, living conditions are not nearly as bad as OTL North Korea. As of TTL’s 2011, conditions in the JWR are analogous to the late Brezhnev-era USSR, but with far more blatant corruption at the highest governing levels. The JWR is also analogous to the retro-dystopian society shown in Terry Gilliam’s movie Brazil, especially with regards to its sprawling, oppressive, and inefficient bureaucracy.
 
Roddenberry on other hand could've fought in the SGW on either the side, in the USA or CSA (assuming that his family doesn't move from El Paso to Los Angles) and how his life turns out depends on which side he fights for (assuming he isn't killed during the war).
El Paso is the part of TTL's state of Houston (basically OTL west Texas). It was US territory by Rodenberry's birth, although Featherston reintegrated it into the CSA just before the Second Great War broke out (an analogous situation of Chamberlain at Munich, or the earlier reoccupation of the Rhineland). But after the war, Houston was reingetraged into the USA as a US state. The rest of Texas remained an independent country, as David said much earlier, simply thankful they didn't suffer the fate of the former CSA further east. (Just before the 2GW's end, Texas seceded from the CSA. So it barely escaped the worst of the eastern CSAs consequences of it).

--Ronald Reagan
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Much earlier, David said Reagan never got into politics, but (quoting as close as I can remember) he had great success as either a film producer or studio head (I forgot which one, but definitely something along those lines)
 
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El Paso is the part of TTL's state of Houston (basically OTL west Texas). It was US territory by Rodenberry's birth, although Featherston reintegrated it into the CSA just before the Second Great War broke out (an analogous situation of Chamberlain at Munich, or the earlier reoccupation of the Rhineland). But after the war, Houston was reingetraged into the USA as a US state. The rest of Texas remained an independent country, as David said much earlier, simply thankful they didn't suffer the fate of the former CSA further east. (Just before the 2GW's end, Texas seceded from the CSA. So it barely escaped the worst of the eastern CSAs consequences of it).
I know that part, I'm asking wether Roddenberry was living in El Paso when Houston rejoined the CSA.
 
I know that part, I'm asking wether Roddenberry was living in El Paso when Houston rejoined the CSA.
The wikipedia article about him (I know, I know, but even so), said Roddenberry's parents (and him) moved to Los Angeles in 1923, after passing a civil service exam. That's TTL around a decade before Featherston came to power and 15 or so years before Houston rejoined the CSA. As for what Gene would be doing with the rest of his life? That's anybody's guess.
 
Probably my last one on film for a while, but what's Dalton Trumbo doing ITTL? Assuming he's never blacklisted as IOTL for his political views, how different is his career as well as that of a writer? Does Jonny Got His Gun still become the popular anti-war novel it is?
Dalton Trumbo went east instead of west in this world, and wound up in New York City. He eventually found success as a novelist and playwright; he never worked in the film industry in this world. He was supportive of the Socialist Party and organized labor.

Trumbo tends to be viewed with some controversy by cultural historians in 2021, since he was initially a firm supporter of Al Smith’s policy of appeasement of the CSA. However, his views changed after Operation Blackbeard. He became a firm supporter of the war effort. Like the vast majority of US citizens, he was genuinely horrified by the Destruction.

The novel Johnny Get Your Gun does not exist in this world; Trumbo’s postwar works tended to portray pacifism and pacifists quite negatively. For instance, the 1947 Trumbo play Dotted Line, about high stakes negotiations between a labor union and a maliciously evil boss, portrays the union’s resident pacifist as a sell-out and stooge of the antagonist boss.

In 2021, Trumbo’s best known work is his epic novel Romans, published in 1955 and quickly becoming a bestseller. Romans, at the time of its publication, was notable for having two ordinary Roman legionnaires as the only POV characters, with the setting as the fall of the Republic. The POV characters were fictional versions of two legionnaires mentioned by Julius Caesar in his Gallic War: Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus.
 
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Say, what are the casualty figures for the Great Pacific War in detail for both sides? I remembered that in your posts, China had about 7 million people dead in total from both sides.

I never went into specific details on casualties for the Fourth Pacific War. However, it was a very wide ranging and destructive conflict, especially in the Japanese-controlled areas of China and the puppet state of Manchukuo. The war also caused significant devastation in Indochina (which collapsed as a single territorial unit), Indonesia (which experienced a war of independence), the Philippines (a battleground between rival Japanese military commanders) and Japan itself (US bombing raids, economic collapse, civil war between the Syndicalists and anti-Syndicalists).
 
What are these OTL Cold War figures doing ITTL? To list some:
--Konrad Adenauer
--Chiang Kai-Shek--The 2nd Sino-Japanese war occurs just as IOTL, but never appears in your posts during the 4th Pacific War.
--Clement Attlee--IMO most likely to be PM after GWII and oversee rebuilding of Britain as well as implementing social programs.
--Leonid Brezhnev
--Charles De Gaulle--Most likely never becomes a politician, so what's his life like post-war?
--Fidel Castro--Does make an appearance as a teenage partisan in the books. Does he ever become a prominent politician representing Cuba?
--Allen/John Foster Dulles
--Francisco Franco--He's not the dictator at the time of Spain's return to democracy. What becomes of him after the Spanish Civil War? Assuming he lives. Is José Antonio Primo de Rivera the one who became dictator and was later succeeded by Ximeno Domínguez?
--Ho Chi Minh--He's never mentioned during the 4th Pacific War so what's his fate in Japanese Indochina?
--J. Edgar Hoover
--Lyndon B. Johnson--Is he President of Texas?
--John F. Kennedy and the rest of the Kennedy Family--Though he's not president ITTL, is he and any of his family members prominent politicians or hold Cabinet positions at most?
--Mao Zedong--1st Chinese Civil War may still occur and a 2nd United Front may still be made by the time war with Japan happens. Communism might still have some following in China ITTL. Another thing for Filling the Gaps as well.
--François Mitterrand
--Imre Nagy
--Juan Perón--Assuming the 1930 coup and the Infamous Decade still occurs in Argentina, is he the strongman President he is IOTL and allows Freedomites and other Actionsits to seek refuge?
--Ronald Reagan
--Suharto
--Sukarno
--Josip Broz Tito--Would've ended up fighting for the Bolsheviks as IOTL after spending time as a POW but with the Whites and CP winning, that's bound to be different. More a question for Filling the Gaps but his life would wind up being different before and after GW2.

Don't have to answer it all at once but section by section.

In spite of the ambitions of Joseph Kennedy Sr., none of his descendants had significant success in local Massachusetts politics, although several members of the Kennedy family did make into the state legislature during the late Twentieth Century. Politics in Massachusetts, well into the 1980s, was dominated by the powerful Socialist Party machine based in Boston; the Kennedys, a family of Democratic Party loyalists, did not prosper politically in this climate, or later in the 1980s, when a revitalized Republican Party successfully challenged the Boston Machine.

In 2021, the Kennedy family is still mostly centered in Massachusetts, and can be found working in several prominent local companies; several members of the family also found a place in academia, with one member of the family currently on the faculty of Harvard. However, no members of the current generation of Kennedys have an interest in a political career.

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Ronald Reagan had a long career as a sports broadcaster throughout the Midwest.

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John Edgar Hoover’s family did not stay in Washington, DC, given the proximity of the CSA. An analogue to Hoover was born, at a slightly different date, in Philadelphia. Hoover’s ATL counterpart was drafted during the FGW, served in the US Amy Quartermaster Corps, and then, after the war, went to work as a clerk for a shipping company. Hoover’s analogue never served in a law enforcement capacity.

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Allan Dulles and John Foster Dulles both served as officers in the US military during the FGW, with Allan Dulles serving in Sonora, Utah, and Sequoyah, and John Foster Dulles serving on the Roanoke Front. Following the FGW, both Dulles brothers began service with the Federal government; Allan Dulles served in the Justice Department, ultimately becoming the first head of the Bureau of Investigation. John Foster Dulles served in the Treasury Department, in its Bureau of Interstate Commerce. Both Dulles bothers survived the SGW, still in their respective positions, before retiring, within a year of each other, during the Truman Administration in the mid-1950s.

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Fidel Castro never went into local Cuban politics, though, like most residents in the new US state, he was a staunch supporter of the Socialist Party. Castro lived for most of the rest of his life in Havana, where he built up a not insubstantial fortune in managing casinos and luxury hotels.

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Lyndon Johnson’s participation in Texas politics was cut short by the Featherston dictatorship. Although not ultimately arrested by the regime, he found himself on a blacklist preventing him from gaining any meaningful employment with either the state government or major local companies. He was still in Texas when the state declared independence. After the war, he ran a successful import-export business.

Johnson was genuinely horrified when he learned of the Destruction, and of the atrocities committed on Texas soil. Alongside his day job, Johnson spent what time he could investigating just what had happened in his state during the Featherston years. Johnson did not enjoy a lot of support from the Texas authorities in this endeavor, given that his documentation directly contradicted the self-serving narrative that emerged in the state that claimed Texas was primarily a victim of Featherston. Johnson, aside from documenting Freedom Party atrocities in Texas, also documented evidence of extensive local collaboration with the Featherston regime.

Johnson also served as a local contact for Cassius Madison’s Remembrance Center, although this would not be publicized until well after Johnson’s death. Before he died, Johnson entrusted all of his private research on the Destruction and local collaboration in Texas with the Freedom Party to the Remembrance Center. Johnson’s research later became the basis for Lone Star State, a three volume history of the Destruction and Freedom Party rule in Texas published (jointly) by the Remembrance Center and Yale University in 1979. This caused a diplomatic incident between the US and Texas, as the Republic of Texas attempted to stop the publication of this history. Evidence provided by Johnson’s research would also later result in several local Freedom Party war criminals from Texas being handed over to US authorities.

In 2021, Johnson has a memorial plaque of his own on the Remembrance Center’s Walk of Friendship, located in the extensive Memorial Garden surrounding the center itself.
 
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The Kennedy family managed to dominate the local Socialist Party in Massachusetts for around two generations after the SGW, through Joseph Kennedy Sr.’s alliance with the powerful Socialist Party machine in Boston. Members of the family served in Congress and the state legislature, with one member of the family serving as governor of Massachusetts during the Fourth Pacific War. However, the influence of the Kennedy family diminished in the 1980s, as the Socialist Party machine in Boston was successfully bested at the state level by a revived Republican Party. While the Kennedy family still exists in 2021, there are no members in politics.

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Ronald Reagan had a long career as a sports broadcaster throughout the Midwest.

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John Edgar Hoover’s family did not stay in Washington, DC, given the proximity of the CSA. An analogue to Hoover was born, at a slightly different date, in Philadelphia. Hoover’s ATL counterpart was drafted during the FGW, served in the US Amy Quartermaster Corps, and then, after the war, went to work as a clerk for a shipping company. Hoover’s analogue never served in a law enforcement capacity.

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Allan Dulles and John Foster Dulles both served as officers in the US military during the FGW, with Allan Dulles serving in Sonora, Utah, and Sequoyah, and John Foster Dulles serving on the Roanoke Front. Following the FGW, both Dulles brothers began service with the Federal government; Allan Dulles served in the Justice Department, ultimately becoming the first head of the Bureau of Investigation. John Foster Dulles served in the Treasury Department, in its Bureau of Interstate Commerce. Both Dulles bothers survived the SGW, still in their respective positions, before retiring, within a year of each other, during the Truman Administration in the mid-1950s.

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Fidel Castro never went into local Cuban politics, though, like most residents in the new US state, he was a staunch supporter of the Socialist Party. Castro lived for most of the rest of his life in Havana, where he built up a not insubstantial fortune in managing casinos and luxury hotels.

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Lyndon Johnson’s participation in Texas politics was cut short by the Featherston dictatorship. Although not ultimately arrested by the regime, he found himself on a blacklist preventing him from gaining any meaningful employment with either the state government or major local companies. He was still in Texas when the state declared independence. After the war, he ran a successful import-export business.

Johnson was genuinely horrified when he learned of the Destruction, and of the atrocities committed on Texas soil. Alongside his day job, Johnson spent what time he could investigating just what had happened in his state during the Featherston years. Johnson did not enjoy a lot of support from the Texas authorities in this endeavor, given that his documentation directly contradicted the self-serving narrative that emerged in the state that claimed Texas was primarily a victim of Featherston. Johnson, aside from documenting Freedom Party atrocities in Texas, also documented evidence of extensive local collaboration with the Featherston regime.

Johnson also served as a local contact for Cassius Madison’s Remembrance Center, although this would not be publicized until well after Johnson’s death. Before he died, Johnson entrusted all of his private research on the Destruction and local collaboration in Texas with the Freedom Party to the Remembrance Center. Johnson’s research later became the basis for Lone Star State, a three volume history of the Destruction and Freedom Party rule in Texas published (jointly) by the Remembrance Center and Yale University in 1979. This caused a diplomatic incident between the US and Texas, as the Republic of Texas attempted to stop the publication of this history. Evidence provided by Johnson’s research would also later result in several local Freedom Party war criminals from Texas being handed over to US authorities.

In 2021, Johnson has a memorial plaque of his own on the Remembrance Center’s Walk of Friendship, located in the extensive Memorial Garden surrounding the center itself.
Nice! Can't wait for the next round. On the issue of Texas, that's pretty much the only place where a "Clean Army"/"hapless puppet" myth sort of persists in the same way Vichy France was presented as victim of Nazi Germany IOTL for decades but were actually willing collaborators.
 
Vichy France is one thing, but post-Anschluss Austria may fit the bill even better as the Austrian used to be considered ethnic Germans before "becoming a nation" after the war. Austria styled itself as the first victim of German aggression, then it elected Kurt Waldheim (former UN secretary-general with a past in the SS) as president and it was confronted with the fact that Austrians were just as deeply involved into the atrocities of German warfare as their cousins in what used to be called the Altreich.
 
Vichy France is one thing, but post-Anschluss Austria may fit the bill even better as the Austrian used to be considered ethnic Germans before "becoming a nation" after the war. Austria styled itself as the first victim of German aggression, then it elected Kurt Waldheim (former UN secretary-general with a past in the SS) as president and it was confronted with the fact that Austrians were just as deeply involved into the atrocities of German warfare as their cousins in what used to be called the Altreich
OTL postwar Austria was the general model for the Republic of Texas in TTL as to how the Freedom Party and the Destruction are viewed within Texas during the postwar years. Wright Patman’s 1944 Declaration of Independence also contributed to a postwar myth of Texas as a center of resistance to Featherston.

However, there is a shift in both the popular and official attitudes in Texas by the end of the Twentieth Century, in terms of taking responsibility for what happened under the Featherston regime.
 
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What about the life and legacy of William Hartnell (born in 1908), Patrick Troughton (born in 1920), Jon Pertwee (born in 1919), and Gene Roddenberry (born in 1921) in TTL since the first three never got to play the Doctor and Roddenberry never created Star Trek.

While one of the first three (or two or all) could have been killed in one of the three superbombings of the UK or in combat during SGW and if one or two or all survived the war I have a feeling that they wouldn't have had happy lives after the conflict.

Roddenberry on other hand could've fought in the SGW on either the side, in the USA or CSA (assuming that his family doesn't move from El Paso to Los Angeles) and how his life turns out depends on which side he fights for (assuming he isn't killed during the war).

The Roddenberry family never moved to El Paso in TTL. The family was living further east, in another area of Texas, by the end of the FGW. There was a male child born to the Rodenberry family in 1920, but with a different name (Wes Roddenberry) and ultimately different fate to our world’s Gene Roddenberry: growing up in the post-defeat CSA and then under the Freedom Party regime, conscripted into the CS military, participant in Operation Blackbeard, severely wounded and taken prisoner by US forces in the Battle of Pittsburgh, and ultimately repatriated to the new Republic of Texas in 1944. After the end of the war, Wes Roddenberry worked for over four decades as a file clerk, before retiring in 1986. Wes Roddenberry never worked in film, television, or had any particular interest in science fiction.

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In TTL, William Hartnell never moved into the world of theater, or left the world of petty criminal activity. He was killed in the German superbombing of London in 1944.

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Patrick Troughton’s analogue in TTL is named George Troughton, and he was born in 1922. He served in the Royal Navy during the SGW, and survived, only to return to an utterly devastated country. Troughton subsequently left for Australia, where he eventually found work at Oceania, a joint Australian-New Zealander arms manufacturing company, gradually working his way up to a management position. He retired from this position following the Fourth Pacific War.

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Sydney Newman doesn’t exist in TTL.

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The rough analogue to Jon Pertwee in TTL is Roland John Pertwee, who was born in 1921. He served in the Royal Navy during the SGW. After being discharged in 1944, he accepted an offer by an Australian government recruiter to transfer his services to the Australian Navy. His naval service in Australia lasted until the end of the Fourth Pacific War. Pertwee later worked as a consultant in the emerging Australian film industry on naval-related matters.
 
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Thanks. That does fit the bill even more regard the U.S' relationship with the Second Republic of Texas.
Vichy France is one thing, but post-Anschluss Austria may fit the bill even better as the Austrian used to be considered ethnic Germans before "becoming a nation" after the war. Austria styled itself as the first victim of German aggression, then it elected Kurt Waldheim (former UN secretary-general with a past in the SS) as president and it was confronted with the fact that Austrians were just as deeply involved into the atrocities of German warfare as their cousins in what used to be called the Altreich.
 
The Kennedy family managed to dominate the local Socialist Party in Massachusetts for around two generations after the SGW, through Joseph Kennedy Sr.’s alliance with the powerful Socialist Party machine in Boston. Members of the family served in Congress and the state legislature, with one member of the family serving as governor of Massachusetts during the Fourth Pacific War. However, the influence of the Kennedy family diminished in the 1980s, as the Socialist Party machine in Boston was successfully bested at the state level by a revived Republican Party. While the Kennedy family still exists in 2021, there are no members in politics.
So the Kennedy family shifts from a Democratic family to a Socialist Party family sometime ITTL. Does this mainly occur among Joseph Sr.'s children despite them being from an aristocratic family?
 
So the Kennedy family shifts from a Democratic family to a Socialist Party family sometime ITTL. Does this mainly occur among Joseph Sr.'s children despite them being from an aristocratic family?

This was a mistake on my part. I forgot that Joseph Kennedy Sr. was a Democratic Party operative. I have edited the section on the Kennedy family.
 
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