Iron Duke would also have been considered expendable if available, little more than a heavily armed blockship.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
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I'm having issues with this post.
The actions at ARRAS and also by 1st ARMOURED DIVISION and the 8 RTR got the Germans to pause longer. At the same time, the Guards had time to get their full allotment of anti-tank guns and had time to get their heads together and actually think as they prepared defensive positions that did not have a flank flailing in the air. There is a tiny, organized tank reserve and the French defenders were able to first hold the attacking Panzer division for a day and then fall back to secondary positions in good order.
The shock effect of seeing Panzers rolling up unprepped lines of resistance is gone. The firepower density for the Allied defenders is increasing. The Germans are acting more cautious as they know there are at least 2 motorized forces (1st Armoured Division + ARRAS Force) operating on their flanks in good order and they also know that their scouts have had their eyes shot out a few times.
Given all of this, Boulonge falling in the same clusterfuck as it did in OTL does not make sense. I could buy that it took the Germans a day to get to a position where it could screen and render the garrison irrelevant and inconsequential until the foot infantry advanced to actually take the city, but the same clusterfuck happening given the changing circumstances is a huge stretch.
Derek Pullem
Donor
I think it known as balancing the books - sometimes the allies throw double sixes as at Calais / Arras, sometimes they do as badly as OTL even with the PoD advantages and throw snake eyes
allanpcameron
Donor
Whichever way the battle of Boulogne plays out, either as it was OTL or does much better, see @fester's post below, is neither here nor there in my storyline, which is what happens if the British end up with a better tank than the Valentine.
That about sums up the gains which I believe are reasonable at this point. The changes up to the start of the war are too small, in my opinion, to do much more. Yes the A11 Matilda has better speed and a gun rather than machine guns, but there weren't any more of them at Arras. The change of having 8RTR in infantry tanks at Calais, rather than 3RTR in cruisers, means that I've been able to justify the capture of some German AFVs, which is important to the future of the story, because, unlike the cruisers that were quickly knocked out the infantry tanks succeeded in getting to St Omer.
That's all fair. I think my mistake is trying to do too much. There were, according to my TimeLine, just two extra Light Tanks from 8RTR in Boulogne, so it would probably have been best for me not to try to describe what happened there, other than German forces attacked it, and eventually Boulogne fell. As I mentioned above, I obviously need just to focus on the heart of the matter of the timeline, and not trying to imagine butterflies on every aspect of the Fall of France.
Thanks as always for your inputs.
Allan
25 May 1940. Gravelines. France.
allanpcameron
Donor
25 May 1940. Gravelines. France.
The arrival of the convoy from Calais with rations the previous day had emphasised the proximity of the German forces. The surviving tanks had taken up positions to offer the French troops some close support. When the column of captured German vehicles arrived from St Omer, Brigadier Vyvyan Pope took one look at them, then saw the three Valiants, which nearly gave him a heart attack, and ordered them all straight to the port and on the first ship available back to England. They had departed, along with the German POWs after dark the night before.
The 48th Division, less 143rd Brigade, arrived in the morning of 25 May to take up positions along the canal line. The French commander of 68e Division d’Infanterie at Dunkirk was reasonably happy with his current dispositions. Pope, as the senior British officer in the area, reported to General Thorne about the gap that had appeared between Calais and Gravelines. It was obvious that Calais was still an important source of supply, the rations convoy had proven that. Word was coming in from Calais that the German panzers had been encountered on the approaches to Calais, which would mean that the chances were that Calais would be lost as a port.
Thorne and Pope looked over the maps with Brigadier James Hamilton, commander of 144th Infantry Brigade, whose three Battalions would be the main force used in any action. Thorne had ordered 145th Brigade to fortify Hazebrouck and Cassel in case the Germans managed to get across the canal. What wasn’t clear was whether creating a corridor between Dunkirk and Calais was going to be possible, or whether it be throwing good money after bad. Both Thorne and Pope agreed that while a local counterattack was a good idea, holding open a corridor some ten miles long would too much for the troops currently available. Hamilton wondered if the Canal between Calais and St Omer might provide a good barrier to extend the current Canal Line from Watten. The frontage would be some 18 miles, well beyond the capacity of the current forces to contemplate. Thorne went off to try to get in touch Lord Gort at Advanced HQ to update him on the current situation.
NB text in italic differs from OTL. For those who want an extended perimeter to include Calais as well as Dunkirk, looking at the available forces (1 Brigade) and the size of the area needed to achieve this, against the opposition (8th Panzer + 1st Panzers arriving at Calais) I would have to say that I don't think it is possible.
The arrival of the convoy from Calais with rations the previous day had emphasised the proximity of the German forces. The surviving tanks had taken up positions to offer the French troops some close support. When the column of captured German vehicles arrived from St Omer, Brigadier Vyvyan Pope took one look at them, then saw the three Valiants, which nearly gave him a heart attack, and ordered them all straight to the port and on the first ship available back to England. They had departed, along with the German POWs after dark the night before.
The 48th Division, less 143rd Brigade, arrived in the morning of 25 May to take up positions along the canal line. The French commander of 68e Division d’Infanterie at Dunkirk was reasonably happy with his current dispositions. Pope, as the senior British officer in the area, reported to General Thorne about the gap that had appeared between Calais and Gravelines. It was obvious that Calais was still an important source of supply, the rations convoy had proven that. Word was coming in from Calais that the German panzers had been encountered on the approaches to Calais, which would mean that the chances were that Calais would be lost as a port.
Thorne and Pope looked over the maps with Brigadier James Hamilton, commander of 144th Infantry Brigade, whose three Battalions would be the main force used in any action. Thorne had ordered 145th Brigade to fortify Hazebrouck and Cassel in case the Germans managed to get across the canal. What wasn’t clear was whether creating a corridor between Dunkirk and Calais was going to be possible, or whether it be throwing good money after bad. Both Thorne and Pope agreed that while a local counterattack was a good idea, holding open a corridor some ten miles long would too much for the troops currently available. Hamilton wondered if the Canal between Calais and St Omer might provide a good barrier to extend the current Canal Line from Watten. The frontage would be some 18 miles, well beyond the capacity of the current forces to contemplate. Thorne went off to try to get in touch Lord Gort at Advanced HQ to update him on the current situation.
NB text in italic differs from OTL. For those who want an extended perimeter to include Calais as well as Dunkirk, looking at the available forces (1 Brigade) and the size of the area needed to achieve this, against the opposition (8th Panzer + 1st Panzers arriving at Calais) I would have to say that I don't think it is possible.
Iron Duke was damaged and run aground at Scapa in late 1939, she remained aground until after the war when she was refloated and scrapped.
So am I correct in the presumption that the three Valiants and all the German equipment made it back to UK?
True. Although the issue is her cutdown boilers (she's dead slow at this point) and much like an R her torpedo defence was from a different age. Part of the reason RN capital ships didn't go to Dunkirk OTL was the risk of being torpedoed or Stukaed.
OTL the latter was safely ruled out a month or so later when it became clear the Ju87 couldn't even kill most civilian ships at hellfire corner but its a worry right now. Add in the very recent disaster at Scapa Flow and you can see why the Duke and the R's were kept far away from effective enemy's for the rest of the war. (The Duke's also aground by now anyway).
That said if it happened it probably would be the oldest most broken down R that made the trip. Unlike the Iron Duke it would have a full crew rather than gunnery trainees and at the risk of blowing the turbines might be able to steam fast enough to avoid Uboat's on the way. Add in slightly bigger guns and its probably the most effective choice but adds "and one Battleship," to the Dunkirk (or wherever) losses list.
there was a story in this thread a few years back about one of the older French ships coming in to bombard...wonder if that is plausable?
any serious naval gunfire support could keep the corridor from Calais to Dunkirk open IMO
any serious naval gunfire support could keep the corridor from Calais to Dunkirk open IMO
When we talk about "a better evacuation from Dunkirk," we have to remember that while it was an astonishing success in terms of the number of men evacuated OTL, it was mostly just the men that were gotten out. Forget the tanks or the artillery, men returned to England without helmets, boots and mess tins. Just evacuating men with most of their small arms and personal kit is already a big win over OTL
Even a recovery rate of half the Bren guns instead of ~7.6% would be a major improvement over OTL.
Like I've said earlier, a man evacuated with my Grandfather came out of Dunkirk with literally nothing but his boots everything else having been blown off by a nearby bomb blast.
marathag
Banned
Doubtful. Ideas were not worth much unless they could be mass produced.
That said, have tanks to run at Aberdeen Proving Grounds that don't totally suck compared to US armor will be a bonus.
I can see that you want to avoid this becoming a cascading wank, which is reasonable. But it feels like you're bending over backwards.
And to have big chunks of 1940 action happen unchanged? If a sports team had a different head coach, with different training regimen and different playbook, who brought in some different players... having a long segment of the Big Game happen exactly the same, right down to the individual passes and kicks and tackles and penalties and scores?
It feels wrong. I can see that it would be tons of work to generate a plausible faux-narrative at this level of detail. But that isn't necessary, if the overall outcome is about the same. Zoom in for a vignette where it matters - the performance of alt-equipment - but otherwise, just summarize and move on.
Perhaps there will be some significant effects in the last part of the campaign, worthy of fine-grained narration. As it is, you're flooding the reader (well, this reader, anyway) with detail that doesn't advance the story, which is about British tank design and production. (I.e. gearboxes and turret rings and Vickers vs. Nuffield vs. Vulcan...)
With all this captured German equipment, something else comes to mind. earlier adoption of the jerrycan!!!!!
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