The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

[Eckener]

I know it was a shorter update than some of the previous ones, but I had it done and am not sure how long until I can get the next "scene" finished so I figured I would go ahead and share.

I also went back and threadmarked all of the posts that had the lists of "what happened to ..." so you can more easily access them.

 

[MaxGerke01]

I know it was a shorter update than some of the previous ones, but I had it done and am not sure how long until I can get the next "scene" finished so I figured I would go ahead and share.

I also went back and threadmarked all of the posts that had the lists of "what happened to ..." so you can more easily access them.

Glad to see an update and also that you have linked the what happened to lists of names to the overall timeline as I think those add alot to the detail and feel of the timeline.

 

[Eckener]

Got inspired, here are five more names:

• John Wayne - Wayne’s film career follows a nearly identical path, and many of his films remained popular for years, and mostly avoided the censors’ ban in the post-WWIII era. Wayne himself had been a supporter of Thurmond during his initial pre-war presidency. Wayne survived the war, and although he was not happy about the Nazi occupation, he largely kept his mouth shut and provided limited assistance to the new regime (citing failing health as a reason to not be more active). He died in 1975 of cancer.
• Harry S Truman - Early life and political career largely the same. Served as Senator from Missouri from 1935-1952, and then became President Kennedy’s second VP, replacing Vice President Richard Russell, after he and Kennedy had a falling out. Was appointed by Humphrey as a member of the Supreme Court in 1966. Died in the DC blast.
• Dwight Eisenhower - Early life and military career largely the same. Approached by President Thurmond to serve as Secretary of Defense in 1956, but declined. He also approached in Humphrey to serve as SecDef in 1964, but declined as well. He retired from the military in 1966, and died in 1968
• Former President Herbert Hoover - Critical of the Smith administration, with several regular syndicated columns in national papers. Offered to help campaign for Lindburg in 1940, but asked to remain in the background. He kept writing in support of Lindburg, and then kept up his criticisms once Kennedy took office in 1948. Hoover had a good professional relationship with President Thurmond, though they disagreed on race-related topics. As such, Hoover was appointed to serve as the US Ambassador to the United Kingdom in 1957, a post he held until his death in 1961.
• Adlai Stevenson II - Career and early life followed a path similar to OTL. Outspoken critic of the Lindburg administration, and was considered a possible running mate for Kennedy in 1948. Ended up running for and being elected governor of Illinois that year instead. Ran against Thurmond in 1956 and lost. Would serve as Humphrey’s Interior Secretary starting in 1965, and died in DC.

 

[MaxGerke01]

So it occurs to me that perhaps something like the Capitol Insurrection happens ITTL but happens in Omaha and ittl the swastikas and any white supremacist acouterments seen are sadly considered as per usual and wha is radical as the old US flag...
Also just realized two names that I dont think were considered but would work here as well James Dean and Frank Sinatra...

 

[Eckener]

So it occurs to me that perhaps something like the Capitol Insurrection happens ITTL but happens in Omaha and ittl the swastikas and any white supremacist acouterments seen are sadly considered as per usual and wha is radical as the old US flag...
Also just realized two names that I dont think were considered but would work here as well James Dean and Frank Sinatra...

Interesting that you bring that up. I haven't written up anything on this specifically yet, but I foresee some sort of event like this - but not in a negative way like we saw IRL in January. But the way I see things happening, the anti-fascist candidate will likely win the 2020 election, but the old guard may try and stop it, and that will lead to some sort of mass demonstration event(s).

I haven't got to Sinatra yet, but I did do Dean:
"Does not die in an automobile accident in 1955, his career before that is largely unchanged. Continues acting, and was seen as “edgy” and boundary-pushing. Will continue acting for a while after the new regime comes to power in 1971, but is arrested in 1980 by the NBSS for “degenerate activities” and “anti-state sympathies” and sentenced to 15 years hard labor in Montana. Released in 1995, and he settles in North Dakota as a mechanic, where he dies in 1999."

 

[MaxGerke01]

Interesting that you bring that up. I haven't written up anything on this specifically yet, but I foresee some sort of event like this - but not in a negative way like we saw IRL in January. But the way I see things happening, the anti-fascist candidate will likely win the 2020 election, but the old guard may try and stop it, and that will lead to some sort of mass demonstration event(s).

I haven't got to Sinatra yet, but I did do Dean:
"Does not die in an automobile accident in 1955, his career before that is largely unchanged. Continues acting, and was seen as “edgy” and boundary-pushing. Will continue acting for a while after the new regime comes to power in 1971, but is arrested in 1980 by the NBSS for “degenerate activities” and “anti-state sympathies” and sentenced to 15 years hard labor in Montana. Released in 1995, and he settles in North Dakota as a mechanic, where he dies in 1999."

I serious dlyoubt that Frank Sinatra would be going along with the program ittl. What you say about a January 6 type insurretion I agree but it could also be about people who are upset with the new regime and want to keep the older more odious in power whcih would make it a true analog to OTL...

 

[Eckener]

I seriouslt doubt that Frank Sinatra would be going along with the program ittl. What you say about a January 6 type insurretion I agree but it could also be about people who are upset with the new regime and want to keep the older more odious in power whcih would make it a true analog to OTL...

The difference being, though, that the Jan 6thers were mostly those on the "outside," not being part of the apparatus of state power. ITTL, those unhappy with the winds of change are more likely to be the old guard. If anything, we are looking at an event similar to what happened in Berlin in the original book, with the old guard trying to block the new reformers from taking office, only to touch off a populist rebellion in the streets that pushes back against the old guard.

RE: Frank Sinatra, that is harder to say. While I think I agree that on his own, he would not want to help the new regime after the war, it would depend on if he has dependents. It is one thing to be defiant when it is just your neck on the line. Its a completely different thing when the regime can grab your family and say, you will cooperate or bad things will happen to your wife and kids (which is what happened ITTL to several other celebs - they initially tried to be defiant but then the Nazis and Thurmond tell them that if they don't comply their family will be sent to camps along with them, and so they cave).

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

Hey Eckener, I was wondering if you'd be interested in covering the fate of Lawrence Welk in the ItPoME world? He seems the type of person that the Germans would like in the post-WWIII order of things.

 

[Eckener]

Hey Eckener, I was wondering if you'd be interested in covering the fate of Lawrence Welk in the ItPoME world? He seems the type of person that the Germans would like in the post-WWIII order of things.

I would imagine that he would have been coerced into staying on air for the new regime, regardless of his personal politics. If he survived the war itself, he'd have been put back on air, with threats against his family if he tried to refuse (as happened to several others).

 

[MaxGerke01]

Ed Sullivan -whos show ended in 1971 OTL -and Rod Serling,( suprised I overlooked these 3 ) spring to mind now as well although given both of their personal lives and politics they both might have problems with the Nazi powers that came to be....

 

[MaxGerke01]

Sadly it looks like this picture of a 1961 American Legion meeting could be from this timeline.

 

[Eckener]

Sadly it looks like this picture of a 1961 American Legion meeting could be from this timeline.View attachment 646788

Ohhh. Creepy.

I'm low-key reminded of the scene in the first episode of MITHC where Joe has the interaction with the highway patrolman who reflects back on having been in the military in WWII and is so nonchalant about the current situation and was like "I don't even know what we were fighting for" and then goes on to talk about the ash falling and who was being disposed of.

 

[PobreCesar]

I wanted to thank you for making this thread. I read ITPOME earlier this year and I must say that I think it is one of Turtledove's better books- not more realistic books- but better books.

I know the parallelism about the attempted reforms can be tiring, but it does serve a narrative function. Because there are some reforms, we do not need to exist in a state of despair that the Reich will go on forever, inexorably grinding all its foes to dust. We are reminded that history does not end, even with a great tragedy. It allows the possibility of hope. But it does so while not being the most interesting event, if only because we've all heard this story before. One of the rules of writing is to ask of any scene: "Is this the most interesting thing we could be seeing right now?" And if the answer is no, to have a good reason why we are not seeing the most interesting thing. If the reform plotline was to be original, it would distract from the core plot of ITPOME; if it was not there, the story would take place, not in an (admittedly not supremely realistic) alternate history, but in a fantasy world constructed out of the trope of "those wacky Nazis" for history is always moving. The "We all know what happens" nature of the reform arc is what allows it to work.

And it is for the best that the story does not give it more focus. ITPOME is not a story about an alternate history, but rather a story set in one. ITPOME is a story about Judaism, family, and persecution. It therefore works better being focused on a family so that we can see them wrestling with the questions of how to preserve their way of life in the teeth of a society bent on their eradication, and how this influences them as they- as regular people, not powerful or important people- but as a family that endeavors to pass down their way of life just one more generation at a time, holding out not so much hope at first, but faith that one day they will be able to step back into the light, as Jews.

 

[Eckener]

I wanted to thank you for making this thread. I read ITPOME earlier this year and I must say that I think it is one of Turtledove's better books- not more realistic books- but better books.

I know the parallelism about the attempted reforms can be tiring, but it does serve a narrative function. Because there are some reforms, we do not need to exist in a state of despair that the Reich will go on forever, inexorably grinding all its foes to dust. We are reminded that history does not end, even with a great tragedy. It allows the possibility of hope. But it does so while not being the most interesting event, if only because we've all heard this story before. One of the rules of writing is to ask of any scene: "Is this the most interesting thing we could be seeing right now?" And if the answer is no, to have a good reason why we are not seeing the most interesting thing. If the reform plotline was to be original, it would distract from the core plot of ITPOME; if it was not there, the story would take place, not in an (admittedly not supremely realistic) alternate history, but in a fantasy world constructed out of the trope of "those wacky Nazis" for history is always moving. The "We all know what happens" nature of the reform arc is what allows it to work.

And it is for the best that the story does not give it more focus. ITPOME is not a story about an alternate history, but rather a story set in one. ITPOME is a story about Judaism, family, and persecution. It therefore works better being focused on a family so that we can see them wrestling with the questions of how to preserve their way of life in the teeth of a society bent on their eradication, and how this influences them as they- as regular people, not powerful or important people- but as a family that endeavors to pass down their way of life just one more generation at a time, holding out not so much hope at first, but faith that one day they will be able to step back into the light, as Jews.

Good insights on ITPOME, and I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread.

I do agree that it's one of his better books, though I'm extremely biased as it was the first AH book I ever read. I also agree with you that the point of the book was more about the family story and less about the actual AH - and I think it was discussed early on in this thread that most of us accepted that the world itself was highly implausible. I for one just wanted to explore it anyway.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Good insights on ITPOME, and I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread.

I do agree that it's one of his better books, though I'm extremely biased as it was the first AH book I ever read. I also agree with you that the point of the book was more about the family story and less about the actual AH - and I think it was discussed early on in this thread that most of us accepted that the world itself was highly implausible. I for one just wanted to explore it anyway.

Any plans to continue this or your Hollywood thread ?

 

[Eckener]

Any plans to continue this or your Hollywood thread ?

I do plan on continuing, but not right away - I am knee-deep in trying to finish my master's thesis by the end of October, so that's where most of my writing energy is going at the moment.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Im rewatching The Man In the High Castle and I actually had forgotten about the "Nazi Churches" that were in the US that had been converted into that from existing churches at the time of the invasion.Do such things exist in this timeline as well ?

 

[Eckener]

Im rewatching The Man In the High Castle and I actually had forgotten about the "Nazi Churches" that were in the US that had been converted into that from existing churches at the time of the invasion.Do such things exist in this timeline as well ?

No, I don’t think so. In the actual Turtledove book, it is clearly stated that “quiet Christianity” is tolerated by the authorities in Germany proper.

I’m sure there are purges and underground sects that don’t agree with the Nazis that are hunted with varying degrees of voracity by the German and American authorities.

Keep in mind though that in this story the American state, while kowtowing to Berlin and heavily deferential, is technically homegrown. An outright ban on Christianity is highly unlikely. It much more realistic to imagine Christian nationalism being used to prop up the Omaha government.

TBH that was one of my biggest critiques of High Castle, having Christianity totally illegal. It doesn’t line up with what the Nazis did in OTL and I don’t think that’s how it would have played out in a Nazi victory scenario, and it also isn’t what turtledove alluded to in his work.

 

[MaxGerke01]

TBH that was one of my biggest critiques of High Castle, having Christianity totally illegal. It doesn’t line up with what the Nazis did in OTL and I don’t think that’s how it would have played out in a Nazi victory scenario, and it also isn’t what turtledove alluded to in his work.

I wonder if it was totally illegal or just heavily and strongly discouraged.In Nazi America the view we saw of everyday life was basically from the upper echelon the Smiths occupied. So its not what you did if you wanted to be or stay upwardly mobile or totally on the good side of the government .I think the Nazis would have a hard time stamping out Christianity completely especially in the South.Plus if some form of racist Christian identity churches arose there and elsewhere in Nazi America they could be viewed as a real tool to help keep the populace loyal and content with Nazi rule.
BTW any chance you will continue with this thread soon ?

 

[Eckener]

I wonder if it was totally illegal or just heavily and strongly discouraged.In Nazi America the view we saw of everyday life was basically from the upper echelon the Smiths occupied. So its not what you did if you wanted to be or stay upwardly mobile or totally on the good side of the government .I think the Nazis would have a hard time stamping out Christianity completely especially in the South.Plus if some form of racist Christian identity churches arose there and elsewhere in Nazi America they could be viewed as a real tool to help keep the populace loyal and content with Nazi rule.
BTW any chance you will continue with this thread soon ?

Well in the first season of High Castle, when they are in the Neutral Zone and Juliana is at the book shop and asks to buy a Bible, she’s told they’re very illegal and the shop owner is extremely nervous about having them. So it is pretty heavily implied that the Reich has forbade Christianity - and also probably the Japanese (there's the funeral of Fink's family that is Buddhist but appears to be in a former Church).

I don't think the Nazis would try to stamp out Christianity at all, at least not at face value. Only denominations/churches that openly defy the Nazi authorities (and that of the new pro-Nazi US Government set up after WWIII).

And I agree, you'd see certain strains of "Christianity" that are racist and nationalistic enough that would likely prop up the new regime after the war. (Though I'll stress that American religious development prior to WWIII in this alt would have been different than OTL - a lot of the groundwork for the religious right IOTL came about after US victory in our WWII. With that conflict not happening, development would be different.

I am thinking about picking this back up now that my university work is done and I have more free time at the moment. Just have to see if I can get back into the vein of this story.