How's the Start?


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Osman Aga

Banned
Why would it want land at the expense of A-H? I mean, Bosnia sure, but outside of that?

I was only thinking about Bosnia. Usually, a region with a declined Islamic population in former Ottoman land would be a stretch to me. But the Bosnian Islamic Population was around 35-44%, it was only annexed 1908 and the Bosnian Muhacirs would love to return home if the opportunity was there.

Any Muslim Ottoman official would want Bosnia returned. That is the only thing the Entente can offer with things that aren't de jure Ottoman (Cyprus, Persian Gulf lands...), apart of pressuring Russia to give up their gains in 1878.
 

Osman Aga

Banned
Eastern Rumelia would likely just be a permanent drag on the Ottoman Empire, constantly rebellious, culturally too different to be content in the Empire, and not contributing anything special economically. It isn't worth the effort...
I'm not him, but I think it has an insurmountable Christian majority now.

Unless there is a Soviet Style relocation and repopulation attempt, it is not ideal. It is far better to gut the Bulgarian Military beyond repair and set pro Ottoman Government, than gut Bulgaria by taking East Rumelia. The area is almost three decades under Bulgarian control and it is 70% at least Eastern Orthodox. If the population was 50-50 or even 60-40 like in 1885, it was managable.

An annexation post 1912 adds extra Orthodox Slavs who already lost any Ottoman identity they still had in the 1880s. It isn't impossible, but it is really not ideal and a wrong type of Ottoman Government may likely resort to relocation to the Middle East and Libya. Basically ethnic cleansing.
 
No one will like the Ottomans having that much oil once the full extent is not realised. Not even other Muslim states...

It will be (in the views of others), too much power concentrated in one pair of hands. Ottoman Empire + Arabia (if they conquer it) has the ability to crash the World Economy on a whim once Oil supplants Coal.
Completely missed this post. Kurds maybe? Armenians, greeks, and most importantly arab groups will see funding by foreign powers maybe to ripe apart the empire. Issue with arabs is there is no general fuck the ottomans vibe with them they only really began to think of arabs, and identity post ottomans, they seemed fine along as they are treated fine ans not forgotten.
Unless there is a Soviet Style relocation and repopulation attempt, it is not ideal. It is far better to gut the Bulgarian Military beyond repair and set pro Ottoman Government, than gut Bulgaria by taking East Rumelia.
Couldn't the population changes/ resettlement post ww1 style or ww2 style not work? The state of turkey was able to get greeks out of anatolia. Btw I'm not advocating anything just curious the tl is still in the period population resettlement is a normal option. Can the ottomans simply not do a republic of turkey did?
 
The Balkans are going to be an issue eventually, since Serbia still has its aspirations over the so-called South Slavic lands.
Couldn't the population changes/ resettlement post ww1 style or ww2 style not work? The state of turkey was able to get greeks out of anatolia. Btw I'm not advocating anything just curious the tl is still in the period population resettlement is a normal option. Can the ottomans simply not do a republic of turkey did?
It really depends. What....population they will exchange with Bulgaria? Since the Ottoman state in this tl is still a home to many Orthodox population such as the Greeks, Armenians, or Karamanlides (are they also Greek by ethnicity? Idk), exchanging whatever Orthodox population it has won't be a wise move.
Then, exchanging Bulgarians only? I'm not sure, but is there any noticeable Bulgarian minority in the current Ottoman territories to exchange with? Exchanging the Bulgarian muhacirs wouldn't be wise too (since they are seen as Turks).
Edit: Oh, with the Macedonians? Idk, but I still think it's not a wise move and like what Osman Aga has said, not ideal.

Completely missed this post. Kurds maybe? Armenians, greeks, and most importantly arab groups will see funding by foreign powers maybe to ripe apart the empire. Issue with arabs is there is no general fuck the ottomans vibe with them they only really began to think of arabs, and identity post ottomans, they seemed fine along as they are treated fine ans not forgotten.
I suppose that means other Muslim states in the region which historically have....rivalries with the Ottomans such as Persia.
 
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Completely missed this post. Kurds maybe? Armenians, greeks, and most importantly arab groups will see funding by foreign powers maybe to ripe apart the empire. Issue with arabs is there is no general fuck the ottomans vibe with them they only really began to think of arabs, and identity post ottomans, they seemed fine along as they are treated fine ans not forgotten.
Couldn't the population changes/ resettlement post ww1 style or ww2 style not work? The state of turkey was able to get greeks out of anatolia. Btw I'm not advocating anything just curious the tl is still in the period population resettlement is a normal option. Can the ottomans simply not do a republic of turkey did?
The Great Powers were willing to let Greeks be took out of a land they were already a minority in, and had been muslim majority for Centuries.

But the mass expulsion of Christians from land which is and has traditionally been Christian? No. Way. Literally every major power, except for Japan, will utterly oppose this.
 
It really depends. What....population they will exchange with Bulgaria? Since the Ottoman state in this tl is still a home to many Orthodox population such as the Greeks, Armenians, or Karamanlides (are they also Greek by ethnicity? Idk), exchanging whatever Orthodox population it has won't be a wise move.
Then, exchanging Bulgarians only? I'm not sure, but is there any noticeable Bulgarian minority in the current Ottoman territories to exchange with? Exchanging the Bulgarian muhacirs wouldn't be wise too.
what about with greece would they be open to it?
The Great Powers were willing to let Greeks be took out of a land they were already a minority in, and had been muslim majority for Centuries.

But the mass expulsion of Christians from land which is and has traditionally been Christian? No. Way. Literally every major power, except for Japan, will utterly oppose this.
fair point it was a not realistic anyway, i assumed post a major war with the major powers being too exhausted to be willing to do anything. Similar to what happened to Poles, germans and italian population after both world wars.
 
what about with greece would they be open to it?

fair point it was a not realistic anyway, i assumed post a major war with the major powers being too exhausted to be willing to do anything. Similar to what happened to Poles, germans and italian population after both world wars.
Post-WW2 was v. different to Post-WW1 in OTl. Not only had Germany "caused" one war, they caused two - and the victors didn't want a third.

So they looked at how Germany caused the second, and realised it was because they claimed all lands with a significant amount of Germans belonged to Germany. Simple fix then, move all Germans into the new borders.
 
what about with greece would they be open to it?

fair point it was a not realistic anyway, i assumed post a major war with the major powers being too exhausted to be willing to do anything. Similar to what happened to Poles, germans and italian population after both world wars.
Aside from what EvilJam said, Greece and Ottoman in this tl at least are bound by some treaty. They are not going to go for each other....asses if a war broke out, hopefully, so the Turkish-Greek population exchange is butterflied away, because there is no need for them to do so. Though maybe eventual migration might still happen.
 
Probably Balkans but not necessarily in the form of Archduke being shot in Sarajevo. Especially since that Assasination itself was a very unlikely series of events.

Not that it was attempted the attempt itself. Where several people tried and failed to assassinate him. Then Gavrilo Princip went to buy a pastry, the Archduke's driver turned the wrong way and Princip just happened to come across the Archduke again and shot him. It was kind of absurd.
yeah, the entire events leading up to the assassination one absurdity after another.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Serbian radicals tried to assassinate an important Ottoman official/prince/maybe even the Sultan instead of Franz Ferdinand. IOTL most Serbian lands had been "retaken" from the Ottomans at this point, which is not the case here.
Even if something like that happened, without a solid alliance, i doubt the Ottomans would be as belligerent as A-H
 
Well this may work in the Ottoman's favor. There isn't any love between the Houses of Osmanoglu (and the House of Rashid) and Saud. Supporting the Emirate of Jabal Shammar to destroy Nejd, and exterminate the House of Saud and their Wahhabi adherents will be a big gamble, but that is a risk that might be worth taking.
Indeed. The Sauds were major headaches for the Ottomans
 
The best thing is that they abstained from the war for the moment so that it does not harm their growth. They are not ready for war yet.
Perhaps a participation in the axis but there is no time for that.
axis is long butterflied by this point, at least in comparison to otl
 
What of the Armenian Reform Package? I don’t see any reason why the Russians wouldn’t start agitating for it in late 1912 as they did in OTL. They might even be encouraged by the concessions made to the Albanians. And there has already been significant damage to Turkish-Armenian relations in the Ottoman Empire as a result of events in 1908-1909. The Russians would maybe be less boisterous about it (not threatening to invade) but I still see it being an issue for them.
Armenians are doing pretty well as of recently ittl, as you can see many in high up positions, however you are correct. Russia will start saber rattling soon enough
 
No one will like the Ottomans having that much oil once the full extent is not realised. Not even other Muslim states...

It will be (in the views of others), too much power concentrated in one pair of hands. Ottoman Empire + Arabia (if they conquer it) has the ability to crash the World Economy on a whim once Oil supplants Coal.
Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, South Yemen, Oman and Persia won't mind, they have their own massive stores of oil. But yes, you are right, the massive oil reserves under ottoman soil will spark resentment. Also the ottomans dont need to conquer arabia. Around 80% of the Saudi oilfields are in the coasts, which the Ottomans already control.
 
Apologies if it felt rude that i only asked him and portrayed my message as not wanting other people to reply. That wasn't the intention, simply im dumb and i know specifically he knows ottoman stuff.

Fair enough, so how do the ottomans make the border and european holdings stronger? If they don't take eastern rumelia Bulgaria can cut the ottoman european land in two easily, its a constant dagger at the throat. Can they maginot line the border or is that not possible?
I mean the defensive positions made otl were pretty damn good, if it were not for the fact that those defensive postions were abandoned in the Balkan Wars!
 

Osman Aga

Banned
The Balkans are going to be an issue eventually, since Serbia still has its aspirations over the so-called South Slavic lands.

It really depends. What....population they will exchange with Bulgaria? Since the Ottoman state in this tl is still a home to many Orthodox population such as the Greeks, Armenians, or Karamanlides (are they also Greek by ethnicity? Idk), exchanging whatever Orthodox population it has won't be a wise move.
Then, exchanging Bulgarians only? I'm not sure, but is there any noticeable Bulgarian minority in the current Ottoman territories to exchange with? Exchanging the Bulgarian muhacirs wouldn't be wise too (since they are seen as Turks).
Edit: Oh, with the Macedonians? Idk, but I still think it's not a wise move and like what Osman Aga has said, not ideal.


I suppose that means other Muslim states in the region which historically have....rivalries with the Ottomans such as Persia.

There are still Turks/Muslims outside East Rumelia. Those would be the primary groups to resettle in East Rumelia, while Bulgarians of Thrace are exchanged. Like OTL, there would be imbalance (more Greeks left than Muslims arrived).

All in all, nasty business
 

Germaniac

Donor
I mean the defensive positions made otl were pretty damn good, if it were not for the fact that those defensive postions were abandoned in the Balkan Wars!
The Ottoman defensive position wasn’t great. Even a fully operational fortress at Kirkillise (up to the level of Edirne) would be hard pressed to stop a determined attack by Bulgaria. Even then lines between Istanbul and Salonica would be easily cut. The Ottomans also need to spend a significant amount on TTL version of Fort Roupel to protect Salonica from a Bulgarian attack. Defenses cost a lot of money and if WW1 taught anything it’s that without significant renovations and upgrading modern artillery will shred them.
 
Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, South Yemen, Oman and Persia won't mind, they have their own massive stores of oil. But yes, you are right, the massive oil reserves under ottoman soil will spark resentment. Also the ottomans dont need to conquer arabia. Around 80% of the Saudi oilfields are in the coasts, which the Ottomans already control.
Now I have questions. If I read it correctly, Kuwait is recognized as an autonomous district of Ottoman of some sort, but under British influence isn't it? So....are they going to be treated as a separate entity from the Ottomans from this point onward, or would their relation to the Ottoman become something like what Hong Kong has with PRC?

There are still Turks/Muslims outside East Rumelia. Those would be the primary groups to resettle in East Rumelia, while Bulgarians of Thrace are exchanged. Like OTL, there would be imbalance (more Greeks left than Muslims arrived).

All in all, nasty business
So....that would also include the Pomaks I guess? I mean, they inhabit the southern mountainous border regions between Bulgaria and Ottoman and since they are Muslims (thus seemingly would be Ottoman-leaning), I can see why Bulgaria would see the problem with that kind of population in case if it want to go to war with Ottoman.

Though otl they managed to largely survive in the Rhodopes.
 
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