He used the weakness of the Papacies legitimacy following the humiliation of 4th Crusade (both prongs, the one attacking Constantinople, and the one trying to carve back out the Holy Land, failed) to push Innocent III into accepting his candidacy for Emperorship. In turn however, Innocent III basically used Otto IV as a shield until he was ready to make another attempt at religious matters; said matters being noted in the previous major content update.
The Eagle of the East, Rhomania: An Eastern Roman Timeline (1196 - 1245)
- Thread starter Averious
- Start date
It's your timeline, but my first question is "Why not?"
In my honest opinion there's a lot of room for anywhere from "very like OTL" to ""very unlike OTL" in western and central Europe with the POD here (which influenced my vote for Austria as "fair sized territory" - there's no guarantee honestly of "Austria" being anything, but I'd certainly prefer that option to no Austria).
To be fair I have been considering things since I made that post. It was mostly made because it saw it as a way to effectively open up the 'German' area to further states that I can properly write out (since its hard as hell to give character to every little statelet inside of the HRE in a timeline like this). It's hard for other interesting states such as the Austrian Empire to exist unless the HRE has fallen.
Although, to note, it's unlikely that the HRE will have its interregnum when Frederick II dies, leaving it stronger than OTL, as when Frederick II inevitably takes power he'll have an interesting relationship with the Romans to the east; looking to Romanos V and later John III in a unique manner.
This is down to the fact that Frederick II himself was unique; as he saw the title of Holy Roman Emperor as akin to that of the Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans to the east; a man who encompassed the role of 'God's Vice-Regent' on Earth--and thus should not see the Pope as his superior. Such a relationship is how I'm going to put together the cooling of relationships between the Germans and Romans; with Romanos V acting as a sort of mentor to Frederick II and John III acting as a close confidant and friend.
Personally what I find really works with this timeline due to the POD is that characters such as the Saint-King Louis IX and Kaiser Frederick II are inherently different to the status quo, and would inherently mesh well with a resurgent Rome in many ways. I have several little things planned; like Romanos V titling Frederick II as 'August' in their letters; with the young Frederick II titling Romanos V as 'Most August' in response.
Part 1; 1209-1212
1209 - Levon I of Cilicia, looking to settle the score with the Seljuks now that they'd been cut down to size by the Romans, would lead an expedition north of the Taurus Mountains in late January; a force of 9,000 men with himself at the head of its mounted core. He would attack and take many minor border towns as well as the city of Tyana within a month. While Levon I had conducted himself well he'd failed to firmly grasp the fact that he wasn't facing an inexperienced child; as Arslan III now had many battles against enemies of a similar caliber to the Armenians. It would be at the Battle of Gamar, in early March, that Arslan III would prove his mettle; personally leading his force of 12,000 Turks against Levon I's veteran troops; outmaneuvering and crushing the Armenians within the first hour of battle. It was a testament to Levon I's skill as a commander that his forces did not break; instead the Armenian King led his surviving men back past the Taurus--destroying Tyana and its surrounding towns as they pulled back. The defeat was devastating enough however for Bohemond IV of Antioch to lambaste the King--decrying Levon's waste of troops that had inherently weakened their coalition should the Ayyubid's come calling again. By late March the Seljuks had begun to push against the Taurus, forcing Levon to scramble for options as he risked losing his major defensive border with the Turks; with the King looking to New Rome for aid following Bohemond IV's insults and jeers. Levon I himself had been the one to break what little connection Cilicia and New Rome had left when he had pushed through Communion with the Papacy, as well as the gradual destruction of old Greco-Armenian titles in favour of Crusader-Latin ones; thus to look back to New Rome was a hard pill to swallow--yet it was the only option left to him. In early April Romanos V would receive managed, yet tense, letters from Levon I; these letters asking for Roman aid in exchange for Cilicia's submission to New Rome as a client state--with Levon I fully expecting Romanos V to haul him over a barrel for it. Instead, by late April Levon I would be met with the news that Romanos V would accept such a submission--but would surprisingly leave the Armenians to their own means religiously and culturally; instead they would simply plug themselves into the Imperial System as any client state would and they would move on from there. By May the healed John Grypas would lead the Army of the East against the Seljuks; with Arslan III met with the stony faces of Roman soldiers at the passes of the Taurus; forcing skirmished battles over the next 3 months as the Romans and Seljuks fought tooth and nail for the defense of the mountains. By August 1209 Arslan III would be forced to frustratingly call off his assault; as the refugee crisis now caused by the still-continued influx of Turks and Muslim Romans had reached a boiling point; forcing Arslan III's hand. In the treaty the Romans effectively gave up everything Cilicia had north of the Taurus to the Turks, a small boon to Arslan III's pride, and a further bitter pill to swallow for Levon I. Yet, despite all this, Levon I would show himself at the Christmas celebrations in the following 4 months--after noticeable Roman aid had helped him in building up the defenses of the Taurus as well as further beautifying the capital city of Sis. Notably Romanos V and Levon I would strike up an unlikely friendship; with Romanos V regal yet pious nature meshing well with the battle hardened warrior of Christ that was Levon.
1210 - Innocent III would begin organizing major efforts against the enemies of the Papacy in early February; having taken the previous 7 years to rebuild support and strength following the failed 4th Crusade. With great speeches and motions throughout the next 2 months, the Pope calls for various religious events within the confines of Europe itself; unwilling to potentially threaten what he sees as the sleeping giant to the east in New Rome (this view would become prevalent in Italy, and France, following Romanos' destruction of the Crusader invasion, as well as the gradual reconquest of Anatolia). These actions are motions against the Muslims in Iberia, and the heretical Cathars in southern France; galvanizing the faithful in France and Iberia around these goals May of 1210; all the while Otto IV would continue his efforts to reinforce his rule over the HRE now that the Papacy was reasserting itself religiously. The calls for a new 'Crusade' by Innocent III would give a unifying factor to the leadership of Christian Iberia; with Alfonso VIII of Castile becoming its noted head as his rivals, Sancho VII of Navarre and Peter II of Aragon, found common ground with the Castilian King following the massive defeats Christian Iberia suffered in 1195. Throughout the rest of the year the different forces within Iberia, and in southern France, prepare for holy efforts--however, by October it is very clear that the major Holy Orders--such as the Knights Templar, are only interested in this new 'Crusade' against Iberian Islam; leaving the Cathar Heresy in France to be dealt with by local forces.
1211 - By mid January 1211 it is clear to Arslan III that he cannot continue to accept refugees fleeing their homes into his own territory; as the strain they put on his states economy on the micro and macro level had begun to affect the standard of living of his own people. In order to alleviate these problems the Sultan begins to funnel more and more able refugees into his growing army as well as the 'colonization' industry; pushing these people to found new settlements in Eastern Anatolia rather than crowding up already established ones. Such a policy, by March of 1211, is starting to show fruit--but the continued influx of thousands of people every month finally hits a breaking point when his army, positioned on the border of the Bukellarion, is attacked by a large group of refugees as they make an attempt to cross. Such an attack starts a whole incident, as the army is forced to pull back, which broke the seal the Sultan had worked so hard to create on the matter--allowing uncontrolled migrations of thousands of peoples fleeing the policies of the Romans. It would take another 2 months to firmly stem the tide; with Arslan III heavily relying on the use of forced conscription to make use of the incoming peoples for his following campaigns; with the Sultan destroying and annexing the minor statelets of Erzurum, and Divrigi by the year's end; allowing him to refine the techniques used to previously take Taron. In early December, to sure up relations now that he was sandwiched between Rome and Greater Vlachia, Kaloyan would offer the hand of his young 6 year old daughter, Theodora, to Romanos V's own son John. As Maria was currently Kaloyan's only living heir, and Romanos was looking to more firmly hold together relations with the Bulgarians, the offer would be accepted--the betrothal being signed off on by the end of Christmas celebrations that year; with the marriage planned for Theodora's 15 year (verses John's 19th).
1212 - Following his string of victories, and knowing that time was of the essence, Arslan III would resupply and ready his firmly tempered 'Conquest' army for what he considered the final effort to form a new base of power outside of Anatolia; and thus away from the risk of Roman reconquest. His following conquests would be nothing short of brilliant; crushing the power of Hisn Kayfa and Bidlis in less than a half-year; in which time he was able to firmly see the skills of both the Kurdish and Armenian peoples; making provisions to enroll them in his army as skilled infantry archers and spearmen respectively; his territories now fully encompassing Lake Van and putting him at borders with the Ayyubids. By late June Arslan III had scoped out the city of Hasankeyf; a fortified stronghold that had held out previously against the Ayyubids and Monsul--and what Arslan III saw was the answer to his needs. On the 15th of June the Sultan would declare Hasankeyf as the new capital of the Sultanate of Rum; disbanding the 'refugee' elements of his army to settle the city and its surrounding areas with Turks and Roman Muslims. With this move the Sultan had moved his base of power thoroughly out of Anatolia; leaving the only threats to his new core as states either on his level; with Mosul and Georgia in mind--and a semi-pleased Ayyubid Caliphate to the south (as Hisn Kayfa and its dynasty had proved a constant thorn in the side of Al-Adil and his efforts to centralize his territories). In July, by contrast, the Iberian efforts Innocent III put into motion would come to a head spectacularly; the decisive Christian victory over the Iberian Muslims in the Battle of Las Navas De Tolosa--with the Almohad Caliph Al-Nasir barely managing to reform his army and form a breakout; leaving his state weakened--with the Christians still led by Alfonso VIII of Castile following up this victory by taking Baeza and then Úbeda; firmly cementing the victory. In detailed letters written by Alfonso VIII to Innocent III, which would arrive in mid September of 1212, the Castilian King would go to great lengths to describe the efforts in taking these cities as well as the thousands of Muslims either deported or killed. Throughout the rest of the year, save for December (as the Christians had to be home for major Christmas celebrations), the effort was made to attempt further gains by the Christians--all the while the Cathars in southern France were beginning to feel the noose tighten around their necks as the fanatical Catholics of the region, spurred on by Innocent III's skilled oratory words two years previous, would begin to butcher and kill any they thought to possibly be heretics.
1210 - Innocent III would begin organizing major efforts against the enemies of the Papacy in early February; having taken the previous 7 years to rebuild support and strength following the failed 4th Crusade. With great speeches and motions throughout the next 2 months, the Pope calls for various religious events within the confines of Europe itself; unwilling to potentially threaten what he sees as the sleeping giant to the east in New Rome (this view would become prevalent in Italy, and France, following Romanos' destruction of the Crusader invasion, as well as the gradual reconquest of Anatolia). These actions are motions against the Muslims in Iberia, and the heretical Cathars in southern France; galvanizing the faithful in France and Iberia around these goals May of 1210; all the while Otto IV would continue his efforts to reinforce his rule over the HRE now that the Papacy was reasserting itself religiously. The calls for a new 'Crusade' by Innocent III would give a unifying factor to the leadership of Christian Iberia; with Alfonso VIII of Castile becoming its noted head as his rivals, Sancho VII of Navarre and Peter II of Aragon, found common ground with the Castilian King following the massive defeats Christian Iberia suffered in 1195. Throughout the rest of the year the different forces within Iberia, and in southern France, prepare for holy efforts--however, by October it is very clear that the major Holy Orders--such as the Knights Templar, are only interested in this new 'Crusade' against Iberian Islam; leaving the Cathar Heresy in France to be dealt with by local forces.
1211 - By mid January 1211 it is clear to Arslan III that he cannot continue to accept refugees fleeing their homes into his own territory; as the strain they put on his states economy on the micro and macro level had begun to affect the standard of living of his own people. In order to alleviate these problems the Sultan begins to funnel more and more able refugees into his growing army as well as the 'colonization' industry; pushing these people to found new settlements in Eastern Anatolia rather than crowding up already established ones. Such a policy, by March of 1211, is starting to show fruit--but the continued influx of thousands of people every month finally hits a breaking point when his army, positioned on the border of the Bukellarion, is attacked by a large group of refugees as they make an attempt to cross. Such an attack starts a whole incident, as the army is forced to pull back, which broke the seal the Sultan had worked so hard to create on the matter--allowing uncontrolled migrations of thousands of peoples fleeing the policies of the Romans. It would take another 2 months to firmly stem the tide; with Arslan III heavily relying on the use of forced conscription to make use of the incoming peoples for his following campaigns; with the Sultan destroying and annexing the minor statelets of Erzurum, and Divrigi by the year's end; allowing him to refine the techniques used to previously take Taron. In early December, to sure up relations now that he was sandwiched between Rome and Greater Vlachia, Kaloyan would offer the hand of his young 6 year old daughter, Theodora, to Romanos V's own son John. As Maria was currently Kaloyan's only living heir, and Romanos was looking to more firmly hold together relations with the Bulgarians, the offer would be accepted--the betrothal being signed off on by the end of Christmas celebrations that year; with the marriage planned for Theodora's 15 year (verses John's 19th).
1212 - Following his string of victories, and knowing that time was of the essence, Arslan III would resupply and ready his firmly tempered 'Conquest' army for what he considered the final effort to form a new base of power outside of Anatolia; and thus away from the risk of Roman reconquest. His following conquests would be nothing short of brilliant; crushing the power of Hisn Kayfa and Bidlis in less than a half-year; in which time he was able to firmly see the skills of both the Kurdish and Armenian peoples; making provisions to enroll them in his army as skilled infantry archers and spearmen respectively; his territories now fully encompassing Lake Van and putting him at borders with the Ayyubids. By late June Arslan III had scoped out the city of Hasankeyf; a fortified stronghold that had held out previously against the Ayyubids and Monsul--and what Arslan III saw was the answer to his needs. On the 15th of June the Sultan would declare Hasankeyf as the new capital of the Sultanate of Rum; disbanding the 'refugee' elements of his army to settle the city and its surrounding areas with Turks and Roman Muslims. With this move the Sultan had moved his base of power thoroughly out of Anatolia; leaving the only threats to his new core as states either on his level; with Mosul and Georgia in mind--and a semi-pleased Ayyubid Caliphate to the south (as Hisn Kayfa and its dynasty had proved a constant thorn in the side of Al-Adil and his efforts to centralize his territories). In July, by contrast, the Iberian efforts Innocent III put into motion would come to a head spectacularly; the decisive Christian victory over the Iberian Muslims in the Battle of Las Navas De Tolosa--with the Almohad Caliph Al-Nasir barely managing to reform his army and form a breakout; leaving his state weakened--with the Christians still led by Alfonso VIII of Castile following up this victory by taking Baeza and then Úbeda; firmly cementing the victory. In detailed letters written by Alfonso VIII to Innocent III, which would arrive in mid September of 1212, the Castilian King would go to great lengths to describe the efforts in taking these cities as well as the thousands of Muslims either deported or killed. Throughout the rest of the year, save for December (as the Christians had to be home for major Christmas celebrations), the effort was made to attempt further gains by the Christians--all the while the Cathars in southern France were beginning to feel the noose tighten around their necks as the fanatical Catholics of the region, spurred on by Innocent III's skilled oratory words two years previous, would begin to butcher and kill any they thought to possibly be heretics.
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This sounds quite interesting i will be looking forward to what you do with Frederick II ! I always wondered what effects a resurgent east rome would have on the HRE and the german area too.
I’m glad you find it interesting!
Functionally however, just to be honest, I don’t see Frederick II shifting radically from who he was as a person historically—as those seeds were sown by his mother long before he became Holy Roman Emperor.
You can time the delay of centralization for the HRE to Frederick’s reign; as he effectively abandoned those efforts made by his predecessors in the HRE’s core territories to focus on his homeland of Sicily. With Romanos being Romanos, who would simply note that you need to carve out a goal and stick to it (as he did in abandoning the northern Balkans and focusing on Anatolia), I can see Frederick taking this to heart and focusing on Italy over Germany; which could see all of Italy firmly united into one Kingdom under Frederick and his successors—while the HRE’s core in Germany continues on as its own thing.
I’ll have to see; as when I write things out I’m able to parse out the functionalities more evenly than in a post like this—but it’s highly likely that the HRE will lose its Italian territories earlier, and to a more united Italian Kingdom. Perhaps a rival to the HRE, run by Frederick’s descendants, is a reborn Western Roman Empire based in Italy, or simply a ‘Holy Italian Empire’. Who knows how it’ll end up.
i wonder what happenes to the Staufers in Swabia, given that Frederick would probably be a powerfull ally to them if he manages to get alot of italy under his control altho i wonder how he will deal with the papacy given that it is way stronger this timeline and tried to get rid of the staufers in sicily longterm i think.
The Papacy regularly clashed with the Frederick and his ancestors because they feared what an HRE that included Sicily could accomplish. Historically Frederick effectively ignored many of the pitfalls the Papacy tried to open up for him by using Muslim soldiers drawn from the Muslim populations of his home Kingdom (because the Pope can’t excommunicate Muslims)—as well as simply, bluntly, going “I’m Emperor, I do what I want”. I can see him pulling similar tactics; but having the backing of Constantinople might add a little more weight to his efforts.
As for an alliance between the Staufers of Swabia and Frederick? It could occur, but I’m not sure he’ll really care enough—as he proved himself apathetic to Germany and its rulers, focusing on Sicily rather than anything else in most cases. We’ll have to see.
If you want any more ideas for your TL, PM @Basileus444; he wrote An Age of Miracles, which has a similar premise to yours...
Good update, BTW...
Good update, BTW...
Age of Miracles is a much larger TL that has been ongoing for a while. I've made a conscious effort to avoid rereading it as then I'd simply be lifting ideas off of it.
The premise itself is rather different; if I recall correctly AoM has the Laskarids retake the Empire, after the 4th Crusade, following the POD that John III Vatatzes' son, Theodore II Laskaris, didn't inherit his father's epilepsy. My POD is that two brothers, which are both ahistorical figures (i.e they're characters I made solely for the this TL), depose the Angeloi and begin reforming the Empire before the 4th Crusade--eventually going on to defeat it.
Added to this, AoM takes a noticably different idea of the Empire than this one will; i.e that the Turks and other non-Roman groups will look to Rome as the immigrants in the US look to the US. Its noted in AoM that the rest of the world began to insult the Romans by effectively calling them 'Half-Turkish' following their reconquests; which is not going to occur here at all, lol.
Fundamentally this timeline is about Rome reclaiming its identity BEFORE it forges a new one. AoM is about the Empire inherently changing to the point that it can barely be called 'Roman' anymore--yet still is in its own way.
It's certainly something that could be a thing. I think with the little statelets, the best bet may be just not worrying about them as much as the major powers - however you define that - within the "German" parts of the empire.
But as far as other states existing - well, the HRE existing on paper doesn't really prevent a Greater Austria (although it might not be called an empire except in the sense of the Angevin Empire), so that may have possibilities if you don't have the concept of "Empire" dissolve.
Frederick or his descendants ruling both the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of Sicily might be very interesting as far as how it impacts things developing up north - there's no reason the "Emperor" title has to be tied to who rules in Germany, which might not be a bad way to have the "empire" fall as far as what you want to develop (with the Kingdom of Germany breaking up into the strongest pieces and the things caught between, not entirely unlike Lotharangia).
How that plays out in the very long term is anyone's guess, but we're nowhere near things like "would modern nationalism develop". Just musing as someone who does such things.
That's interesting, @Averious. BTW, I like your TL, too, and waiting for more, of course...
Good points all around. Notably I only see this in the context of Frederick II and his descendants ruling Italy and Sicily as one 'Empire' would functionally lean into how both the HRE was viewed by the world at this stage--and how Frederick II himself viewed the title of Holy Roman Emperor.
In short, the view of the HRE was a state both with and without borders--it was an Empire, yes, but due to 'inheriting' the mantle of Rome in the eyes of the west it was also seen as a state that technically ruled over every Catholic, regardless of what state they were in. Frederick himself interestingly took a truly Roman view on the Empire and its title; seeing it as the temporal embodiment of the 'Land of God' on Earth--with the Emperor as God's Vice-Regent. It's both possible, and hilarious, that Frederick could functionally take all of Italy but the Papal States and go; "Mkay Germany, don't need you anymore". Nationalism obviously won't develop though, at least not in Italy--or the west in general, until later. The only state that ever got close to what we would dub as modern nationalism was Rome itself, and that was after the Muslim conquests forcibly homogenized it.
Danke, I'm glad you're enjoying it.
Bit of an update;
I damaged my left index finger last night. While the damage isn't terrible, and should heal just fine, it'll take me longer to work out posts from here on as I'll need to adjust to using my left middle finger rather than my index finger (which changes around the whole way that I type) until my index finger fully heals. If it takes a while I might need to reacclimate to using my index finger over my middle finger again--but here's hoping that doesn't happen.
Sorry if this inconveniences you all as readers.
I damaged my left index finger last night. While the damage isn't terrible, and should heal just fine, it'll take me longer to work out posts from here on as I'll need to adjust to using my left middle finger rather than my index finger (which changes around the whole way that I type) until my index finger fully heals. If it takes a while I might need to reacclimate to using my index finger over my middle finger again--but here's hoping that doesn't happen.
Sorry if this inconveniences you all as readers.
Interesting note, while I have some time (and can type things out easier on mobile by using my left thumb and right index);
Constantine XI, as in the same one we know and love, will be a major character within the timeline—and will lead the Empire slightly longer than his OTL counterpart. He’ll be faced with firm issues that shake the Empire to it’s core, and will die defending it in 1453 as he does in OTL.
His death will also bookend the Grypas Dynasty, as he will die without heirs—or any other relatives—putting an end to the Dynasty that had, by that point, upheld and defended the Empire in one way or another for roughly 255 years; making them by far the longest ruling family in the history of the Empire—east and west combined.
Just an interesting tidbit, hope it’s enjoyable.
Constantine XI, as in the same one we know and love, will be a major character within the timeline—and will lead the Empire slightly longer than his OTL counterpart. He’ll be faced with firm issues that shake the Empire to it’s core, and will die defending it in 1453 as he does in OTL.
His death will also bookend the Grypas Dynasty, as he will die without heirs—or any other relatives—putting an end to the Dynasty that had, by that point, upheld and defended the Empire in one way or another for roughly 255 years; making them by far the longest ruling family in the history of the Empire—east and west combined.
Just an interesting tidbit, hope it’s enjoyable.
Part 1, 1213
1213 - The affects of what has become known as the Albigensian Crusade, that 'Crusade' against the Cathars in Southern France, would begin to bear surprising fruit as those in Iberia, notably the Kingdom of Aragon and various Counties that had ruled in effective independence for centuries. Aragon, and these Counties, saw the efforts made by the religious zealots as a threat to their hegemony of the area--as they would regularly cross over into said territory on religious 'missions', causing death and destruction. By March this had reached a boiling point, with the Count of Toulouse, Raymond VI, raising his banners to crush an invasion of French low-knights and peasants. Such an action however gave the French King, Phillip II Augustus, the cause he needed to do as he had wanted to for a long time; cull the independence of Southern France and expand his Royal Domains. In late March the King would marshal his forces, handing them off to the skilled Simon de Montfort the Elder for use--such an action forcing King Peter II of Aragon to react by allying himself with the various near-independent Counties of Toulouse, Comminges, Foix--and the Viscounty of Carcassonne. What would follow, for a half-year was on-again-off-again skirmishing as the two enemies refused to firmly locks horns in battle--Peter II fearing what a weakening of his forces could do for Iberian stability and power over the recently defeated Muslims, and Simon de Montfort--who wanted to avoid damaging the only major force France's Royal Domain had. The following Battle of Muret, which took place in mid-September, a battle that de Monfort was forced to fight with a force much less than half the size of his enemies own, was a crushing victory--as de Monforts unique command style; using a third line as his 'base' of leadership for a more flexible line of control, outdid Peter II. It is said that Peter II was killed almost at the outset, as while he'd tried to disguise his profile with a borrowed suit of armour, the royal standard that flew behind him allowed the cavalry of de Montfort to locate and cut him down--leading to a major route that ended up with the deaths of thousands of Southern French and Iberians--many of which were the important nobility of the Southern French-Iberian alliance. The battle was a major event in the politics of the area--as it left Aragon unable to uphold its hegemony over its northern border, lessening its power and prestige--and gave Philip II a large swath of land to take as his own; bolstering his prestige, military might, and functional power over his French vassals. It would be the first salvo that Philip II would fire over the bow of 'independence'--a simple sidestep into his plans of a truly unified France.
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Small bit of practice to get back into things.
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Small bit of practice to get back into things.