Photos of the New Order

[Scrivener]

Hate to quibble over details like this but I think it's worth mentioning that the death toll in AANW was 10 million short of 200 million deaths.

wait what

oh god oh fuck it's worse than I thought

While the fact that fascism has a major shot in the arm is intensely disturbing, TNO also leaves open the possibility of each of the former Axis members reforming into something approaching sane governance. I said it in the AANW thread already, but the fact that TNO is way more open ended leaves a lot of room for debate.

True; something approaching Chinese-style authoritarianism is much more likely for any Russian unifier or Italy/Japan. Germany in the meantime has the possibility of shifting in either direction, although I can see a regime not unlike that of Onkel Willies Fatherland coming to power in the Reich.

IMHO, in event of a Nazi victory in the style of Fatherland/Thousand Week Reich/AANW, there's a strong chance that the Reich will survive past the '90s at the very least; China has shown that heavy-handed authoritarianism can work in the modern era. For me, the popular belief that the German economy will instantly implode after the post-war boom is overrated, to say the least. Nazi Germany didn't even shift to a total war footing until 1943; after victory in WW2, the Nazis would eventually begin to shift back to a normal, peacetime economy.

Combined with the Nazi's shifting the conquered Slavic population down to serf status, the average citizen of the Reich wouldn't really suffer any hardship (contrast that with the immense slave labor). Nazi Germany would essentially become an immense slave state. Of course, the economy will have to be reformed eventually in the future, but by then the old guard of the Reich will be gone and newer people will take the throne.

That is if it doesn't eat itself first and rolls all sixes.

Again, hate to quibble, but considering that the biggest Reich colony in Africa is run under BurgSys, it would seem that the mass death campaigns haven't truly ended.

It seems that nothing good comes out of the Black Sun.

 

[Rivercat893]

wait what

oh god oh fuck it's worse than I thought

True; something approaching Chinese-style authoritarianism is much more likely for any Russian unifier or Italy/Japan. Germany in the meantime has the possibility of shifting in either direction, although I can see a regime not unlike that of Onkel Willies Fatherland coming to power in the Reich.

IMHO, in event of a Nazi victory in the style of Fatherland/Thousand Week Reich/AANW, there's a strong chance that the Reich will survive past the '90s at the very least; China has shown that heavy-handed authoritarianism can work in the modern era. For me, the popular belief that the German economy will instantly implode after the post-war boom is overrated, to say the least. Nazi Germany didn't even shift to a total war footing until 1943; after victory in WW2, the Nazis would eventually begin to shift back to a normal, peacetime economy.

Combined with the Nazi's shifting the conquered Slavic population down to serf status, the average citizen of the Reich wouldn't really suffer any hardship (contrast that with the immense slave labor). Nazi Germany would essentially become an immense slave state. Of course, the economy will have to be reformed eventually in the future, but by then the old guard of the Reich will be gone and newer people will take the throne.

That is if it doesn't eat itself first and rolls all sixes.


It seems that nothing good comes out of the Black Sun.

I mean if we were to combine the settings of Thousand Week Reich and The New Order, it would be a NobleDark world in the sense that while things may seem bleak at first there are still plenty of well-meaning and decent people that can make a real difference.

 

[ThirdyLovesAH]

IMHO, in event of a Nazi victory in the style of Fatherland/Thousand Week Reich/AANW, there's a strong chance that the Reich will survive past the '90s at the very least; China has shown that heavy-handed authoritarianism can work in the modern era.

In my perspective, Germany may survive into 21st century into 2 "most" plausible ways. Becoming "China" or experiencing a Yeltsin-era Russia.

 

[Rivercat893]

In my perspective, Germany may survive into 21st century into 2 "most" plausible ways. Becoming "China" or experiencing a Yeltsin-era Russia.

Probably a mixture of both. My canon has the Gang of Four successfully defeating Albert Speer and steering Germany away from Nazism.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

IMHO, in event of a Nazi victory in the style of Fatherland/Thousand Week Reich/AANW, there's a strong chance that the Reich will survive past the '90s at the very least; China has shown that heavy-handed authoritarianism can work in the modern era. For me, the popular belief that the German economy will instantly implode after the post-war boom is overrated, to say the least. Nazi Germany didn't even shift to a total war footing until 1943; after victory in WW2, the Nazis would eventually begin to shift back to a normal, peacetime economy.

That's a myth (Speer's because ofc it was) Germany was pushing its economy to the rivet long before then, with military production taking precedence over anything else. Any deficiencies in production during the 39-42 period being the result of the need to shunt (scarce) resources to munitions until the material windfall of the Fall of France. Speer's armaments miracle was anything but, he was just the beneficiary of groundwork laid by his predecessors.

Whatever post-war Nazi economy is going to hampered by the need to build up a military to keep Europe in line and face off against the Wallies over the English Channel and in Africa. With a government rife with competing ministries, where graft and corruption utterly rampant, where money and time are going to be invested into destroying entire cities brick by brick, exterminating the Slavic population of Eastern Europe, and resettling it with German (often city-dwelling) veterans. In what world does any of that, constitute a "normal, peacetime economy."

 

[Scrivener]

normal, peacetime economy

Well, not in the normal sense. I was talking about the creation of a massive industrialised slave society; where the entire Slavic population is made to fuel the Reich's war machine and citizenry.

Think of it this way, while Germany on the outside looks like it's unaffected by the multitude of problems it faces, in the interior the rot is revealed when one realises that much of the Reich's subjects are being put to work to satisfy the small Aryan upper class. While this is an extremely inefficient system, it'll give off the image of economy growth to the populace and outside forces, which will likely have the Reich keep up with it's opponents in the next two decades.

That is, until the Reich's problems catch up to them and they fall apart due to internal turmoil. No state can last that long, especially after the majority of the slave population is killed off.

 

[chankljp]

Even without all the mass death, slave labor in the Reich/Burgundy isn't the same as the Draka. In their own, twisted way, the Draka treat their slaves like pets- do what they ask you to do, and get it done quickly, and you get a reward. They even have safety standards for new serfs.

In the Reich, it doesn't matter whether you get your job done; you're still subhuman, inferior to the Master Race. You don't get to cook or work on a plantation; no, you get to break your back and die in the mines.

I think that this is best reflected in one of RK Südwestafrika's pre-SAW events: In which under the guise of improving production figures, Schenck tried to improve conditions for the native African workers/slaves at an Angolan iron mine by ordering them to be given modern tools such as jackhammers and electric carts imported from Germany. So that they no longer have to break their back by mining with nothing but a pickaxe, or snap their spines when physically carrying the iron ore to the surface.

Instead of being happy at the increased productivity, the mine's director actually complained to the Reichskommissar, since the native Africans were viewed as not being fit to used these tools 'better left to Aryans', and that the better working conditions will make them 'forget their place in Aryan society'.

It was only when Schenck put a few extra zeros on that mine's quotas that the director agreed to the changes.

It really shows how 'Stupid Evil' the Nazis in the TNO world can get, with them literally rather sacrifice economic output just for the sake of their BS race 'science' hierarchy.

It reminds me of this quote from 1984:

'The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.'

 

[Rivercat893]

A monument in Warsaw, Poland dedicated to the brave men and women that fought in the Polish Home Army from 1942 to 1970.

 

[Deleted member 96212]

A monument in Warsaw, Poland dedicated to the brave men and women that fought in the Polish Home Army from 1942 to 1970.

For a minute I misread that as "fought against the Polish Home Army", which would've been a tad depressing.

 

[chankljp]

A monument in Warsaw, Poland dedicated to the brave men and women that fought in the Polish Home Army from 1942 to 1970.

As much as I love the idea of the Polish Home Army being publicly honoured in the TNO world... Sadly, I have a hard time imagining this happening, even in a GO4 victory scenario. After all, one way or another, Poland will almost certainly remain under Germany's sphere of influence, and they are likely going to have an issue with a monument that honours the Home Army, especially considering that one way or another, a lot of German settlers and colonist would have been killed during the uprising.

On the other hand, I can certainly see such a monument being privately funded and erected by members of the Polish community in parts of the world with a significant Polish diaspora such as say, Chicago in the US, or a post-HMMLR victory UK that does not turn out badly.

 

[Rivercat893]

As much as I love the idea of the Polish Home Army being publicly honoured in the TNO world... Sadly, I have a hard time imagining this happening, even in a GO4 victory scenario. After all, one way or another, Poland will almost certainly remain under Germany's sphere of influence, and they are likely going to have an issue with a monument that honours the Home Army, especially considering that one way or another, a lot of German settlers and colonist would have been killed during the uprising.

On the other hand, I can certainly see such a monument being privately funded and erected by members of the Polish community in parts of the world with a significant Polish diaspora such as say, Chicago in the US, or a post-HMMLR victory UK that does not turn out badly.

Then again, a Gang of Four Germany would seek to distance itself from its Nazi past and they might emphasize the resistance over the Third Reich. So they could allow a Polish Home Army monument to be erected with a plaque that explicitly mentions that they fought against the Nazis and not necessarily Germans. Though as you pointed out, such a monument could also exist in a country with a large Polish diaspora.

 

[chankljp]

Then again, a Gang of Four Germany would seek to distance itself from its Nazi past and they might emphasize the resistance over the Third Reich. So they could allow a Polish Home Army monument to be erected with a plaque that explicitly mentions that they fought against the Nazis and not necessarily Germans. Though as you pointed out, such a monument could also exist in a country with a large Polish diaspora.

Well.... The problem I see is that even for a fully liberalised GO4 Germany, unlike say, OTL's FRG or the Russian Federation, it is not just legally a successor state to the Third Reich/the Soviet Union, but instead, it literally IS the Third Reich. Which makes things a lot more difficult.

 

[President Earl Warren]

Well.... The problem I see is that even for a fully liberalised GO4 Germany, unlike say, OTL's FRG or the Russian Federation, it is not just legally a successor state to the Third Reich/the Soviet Union, but instead, it literally IS the Third Reich. Which makes things a lot more difficult.

Yeah...On the other hand it could be possible ina Post Borrmann COllapse, or more likely, In a Post Heydrich Collapse. The germans then would not have the power to go after poland as their too busy butchering eachother and reducing their nation into Somallia levels...Rather Grimdark I know to get this just one monument but it is possible

 

[Rambam23]

The thing is though, didn't TNO's Nazis basically realize the same - that is, that the Holocaust wasn't as efficient as simple slavery? I seem to remember somewhere that this was mentioned but can't remember where. There was someone in the thread for @CalBear's TL, The Anglo/American-Nazi War, where they asked if AANW or TNO was a worse off world. Since to my knowledge TNO's Nazis/Hitler laid to rest the worst excesses of the regime it was a lot harder to call for me and I felt the two were about equal in human suffering.

I think this is actually one of the main issues with TNO from a plausibility perspective. Extermination was the point, getting labor was incidental. Even in the dire economic straits TNO Germany finds itself in during the ‘50s, they would never have abandoned extermination of the Jews. The Nazis continued diverting resources to the Holocaust as their empire collapsed around them. They viewed it as their central task, even more important than their battle with Bolshevism (which they viewed as inseparable from Judaism).

 

[Deleted member 96212]

I think this is actually one of the main issues with TNO from a plausibility perspective. Extermination was the point, getting labor was incidental. Even in the dire economic straits TNO Germany finds itself in during the ‘50s, they would never have abandoned extermination of the Jews. The Nazis continued diverting resources to the Holocaust as their empire collapsed around them. They viewed it as their central task, even more important than their battle with Bolshevism (which they viewed as inseparable from Judaism).

Yeah, I mean I understand if it was just Slavs they were putting off killing, but it seems unlikely to me that the Jews (to a lesser extent Gypsies too) would have been spared in any capacity.

 

[Rivercat893]

Well.... The problem I see is that even for a fully liberalised GO4 Germany, unlike say, OTL's FRG or the Russian Federation, it is not just legally a successor state to the Third Reich/the Soviet Union, but instead, it literally IS the Third Reich. Which makes things a lot more difficult.

The German National Republic or whatever it's called would have given up on Nazism a very long time ago for obvious reasons, especially under the leadership of Helmut Schmidt and the Gang of Four. Since the Armia Krajowa (AK) or the Home Army are beloved national heroes in Poland, there would be a heavy push to build monuments to the men and women that served under the banner of the Kotwica even if the Germans object. Plus, the GNR would want to distance themselves from the Third Reich and might allow these memorials and statues to Polish resistance fighters.

 

[Rambam23]

Yeah, I mean I understand if it was just Slavs they were putting off killing, but it seems unlikely to me that the Jews (to a lesser extent Gypsies too) would have been spared in any capacity.

In TNO lore they stopped extermination of Jews (and presumably Romani although I don’t know if it’s mentioned anywhere) in favor of slavery (and deportation to Madagascar) due to the economic crisis in the ‘50s. Speer convinced Hitler. 6 million died same as in OTL as we know from Kovner’s intention to kill 6 million Germans. Jews were also able to escape to Italian territory where they were given refuge to spite Hitler.

 

[Rivercat893]

In TNO lore they stopped extermination of Jews (and presumably Romani although I don’t know if it’s mentioned anywhere) in favor of slavery (and deportation to Madagascar) due to the economic crisis in the ‘50s. Speer convinced Hitler. 6 million died same as in OTL as we know from Kovner’s intention to kill 6 million Germans. Jews were also able to escape to Italian territory where they were given refuge to spite Hitler.

If you had Nazi Germany win through no Dunkirk evacuation and Operation Barbarossa by 1942, they would have sent most European Jews to Madagascar. In OTL, some Nazi leaders were planning to send them there, but due to the Battle of Britain, this was scrapped, and full-on extermination would occur. Because the TNO Soviet Union was weak under Nikolai Bukharin and World War II was much more favorable towards Nazi Germany, the French colony of Madagascar is realistically speaking going to serve as the so-called Final Solution to the Jewish Question as a giant ghetto run by the SS. The best comparison would have to be Australia, a dumping ground for convicts from the British Isles who would go on to build a nation despite most of the land being arid desert. Even if the same circumstances for the Australians might not be replicated with Jewish Madagascar, living there seems like a preferable option than extermination. It would also be a mandate akin to Palestine/Israel and Syria. Even the island would be renamed to reflect its roots as a Jewish colony (most likely Judea). Living conditions would not necessarily be the most ideal since any land deemed valuable to the Wehrmacht would be under the control of a military governor, and Jews would be collaborating with the local authorities despite not being German citizens think the Warsaw Ghetto but much bigger. Eventually, once the Gang of Four takes control of Germany and reforms it into a democratic republic, they'll likely withdraw from Madagascar/Judea leaving it fend for itself, and that's not getting into what might happen in the Middle East, which might involve the creation of TTL's Israel as seen in some photos.

 

[xie323]

Cover of the alternate history novel Roma Eterna by Tom Kratman, showing the launching of Italy's first nuke. Roma Eterna is a novel where rather than Ciano being opposed by the "Pit of Lions" of Balbo, Pavolini, Bottai, and Muti, is also opposed by Carlo Scorza in the power struggle. Scorza ends up winning and is essentially very succeeds in establishing a extremely sucessful and even progressive "fascist republic"(with reforms going further than even what Balbo wanted) with a very strong nuclear program.

The book is positively received within conservative and far-right circles, but in progressive and far-left circles it's lambasted as excessively whitewashy and glorifying of the ideology of Fascism, with the character of Scorza being seen as a "Mary Sue". It is banned in countries affiliated with the SocIntern/Crimea Pact.

OOC: Scorza is likely on his way out so an event I made “commemorating” his existence as a character in the game.

 

[brooklyn99]

British actor Harry Oldman, starring as Mikhail Matkovsky in the 2012-2019 biopic historical drama TV series, "March of the Siberian Riflemen".

Following the years of the first Russian Vozhd, The series would run for five seasons, beginning in 1959 with Matkovsky's seizure of Magadan (then a shabby port town, as opposed to the bustling metropolis that it is in modern days- far surpassing reclaimed Vladivostok) in his schism of the Russian Fascist Party in response to Konstantin Rodzaevsky's (played by Russell Crowe) pro Nazi-German convictions and erratic, violent nature. The series goes through various events of Matkovsky's life as leader of what would become the Russian National Republic, like; the American mercenary Mitchell WerBell's attempted Coup, the grand showdown with Rodzaevsky, the tragic power struggle against his friend Nikolay Petlin, the brutal war against the Provisionary Central Siberian Revolutionary Council, negotiating unification with warlord Bunyachenko's Republic, then finally ending in 1975 with him signing a declaration of war against the Third Reich in his sickbed, just right before dying of cancer while he ponders his legacy.

The producers had originally wanted to use Russia as a major location for shooting the series, yet came to blows with the Nationalist government who wanted the series to adhere to specific "guidelines" and accept "supervision" to see that Matkovsky nor the National Republic were not being depicted in an unflattering light, considering that Matkovsky has to this day, an endearing Cult of Personality surrounding in him within Russian society as the "forerunner of Russian liberation", the fruits of whose leadership would eventually see Russia reconquering lands from The Ukraine to Outer Manchuria, from the Third Reich and Japanese Empire, though he wouldn't live to see such results.

The series would be highly acclaimed by many critics as one of the best cinematic works on the Russian Anarchy, being compared to the similarly praised 1988 miniseries adaption of Steven Smith's bestseller "Across the Tundra" (the author himself would also be depicted in the first season), in no small part due to Oldman's portrayal of the morally dubious yet still sympathetic Vozhd Matkovsky. Despite it's popularity in the West, the Russian National Republic itself would have a more negative perspective, with figures particularly condemning the show's "misrepresentations" of the Anti-Communist massacres that occurred during and after Matkovsky's conquest of Central Siberia (the National-Laborist regime's line being that such liquidations were a "unfortunately necessary pacification effort") as well as the conflict with Petlin, who the government had long claimed was a powermonger who wanted to usurp the republic and sabotage all that the Vozhd had accomplished as opposed to his portrayal as a pro-Democratic Hero-Antagonist. This discrepant reception between Russia and the West has been seen as a reflection of the distrust between the two, which is becoming more apparent in recent times as the RNR is increasingly seen to be going back to it's fascist roots (Which Matkovsky had claimed to done away with, in 1965) with it's oppression of the Caucasian and Central Asian populations, though there is still a great deal of hesitation to decisively distance from the Russians, in Washington, as the RNR is one of America's biggest trade partners and, because of the vast, rich natural resources especially in Siberia, one of the most invested nations.