Map Thread XX
- Thread starter Balkanized U.S.A
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Having the technology to mass produce atomic bombs while at the same time losing battle to nomadic tribes and being unable to sail a boat across the Atlantic seems...inconsistent.
Very interesting map and scenario, BTW.
i'm taking a lot of creative liberty with the climate mostly because i thought having civilizations in a green sahara and arabian peninsula would be cool lol. by this time (1500-2000 years after the previous map) there's been an event like the OTL 4.2kyr event that resulted in aridification of the region, resulting in shuffling of power.
It's not inconsistent when those nomads use arrows whose tips contain caged anti-matter. 💡
The bigger question is do they have the Goddamn Batman?Do they have bee weapons, too?
This is technically a repost, due to having made some changes and corrections to the map, as well as the text. This is for the sake of both greater accuracy and polishing. Apologies!
Anyway, here's a new map I've been working on for a while: another cover of The New Order mod for Hearts of Iron IV. This one, however, is a post-epilogue map based on an generally successful version of the Reich's "good" path: the Albert Speer route wherein the "Gang of Four" succeed in turning him into a puppet and properly reform Germany into a democratic powerhouse, undoing decades of Nazism. If that sounds familiar, then it's more or less a better/more blursed rendition of TNO: The Mending Continent. The DeviantArt version can be found here.
While TNO can be notorious for how "cursed" or horrifying some of the paths and endings can be (some more subtly disturbing than others), there are some actual sane and genuinely good endings. The GO4 scenario is only one of many "good ends," which can range from a spacefaring America to a democratic Imperial Japan, Anarcho-Christian Russia under Alexander Men to even "wholesome" variants of the USSR. There's more to the mod than hopeless nightmares under the Black Sun, though just might take a bit more effort.
The text having parallels to the Faschismus mit Grossdeutsche Eigenschaften map, is also deliberate, even if only to highlight the stark contrast with the "Dengist Speer" outcome. While the "present" state of affairs could be described as a peculiar blend of the Weimar Republic, East Germany, OTL European Union and even Postwar Japan, and though "Denazification" plays out more gradually or "conservative" in certain respects, it's still a massive world of difference, for the better.
At any rate, this is a work of fiction. This is not a political or ideological screed. Depiction is not endorsement.
All the same, hope you enjoy this as much as I have in making it!
The Greater Germanic Reich is not what it once was. It has changed. It has transcended what Hitler could have dreamed of. Nay, abandoned it. Much of this, if not all, was attributed to the visionary work of Albert Speer. From simple architect to Minister of Armaments and War Production, and finally, Führer, he sought to steer his nation through the worst crisis in its history. In reality, it was his close advisors who were ultimately responsible for the reforms that have outlasted his death in 1982, and continue to serve well in the years since.
One has to turn back the clock to see how it came to pass. The so-called "Gang of Four," comprised of Helmut Schmidt, Kurt Georg Kiesinger, Ludwig Erhard, and Henning von Tresckow, used Führer Speer's "triumph" in the German Civil War to further push their agenda. This seemed a particularly difficult venture, to say the least. Decades of NSDAP rule had led to the assumption that the Reich's citizenry would attribute their relative prosperity and global clout to the Nazis. Despite opposition coming from corners of society as disparate as Prussian Junkers and socialist-leaning students, it's feared that any drive for reform would be an uphill battle that risked crippling the nation, if not worse. The Oil Crisis of 1972 seemed to validate those concerns. Yet by the time the Slave Revolt (the latter led by one Willy "Spartakus" Brandt) was resolved with little bloodshed, their gamble had begun paying off. The liberalizations, gradual as they were, meant that it had become more acceptable for reformists and other critics of the regime to be more vocal. The economic policies, meanwhile, proved resilient not only in the face of international turmoil, but also transformed a moribund system on the brink of collapse. Indeed, they had gained enough political influence to effectively assume de facto control over the government.
Thus, the last decade of Speer's rule was one where he held absolute rule in name, yet was reduced to approving reforms that were undoing the dream of a Thousand Year Reich before his own eyes. By the late '70s, Schmidt (by then one half of the Gang of Four as the rest died of old age) further limited the office's powers through reconstituting the position of Reichschancellor. It's through this that he and Kiesinger oversaw the progressive erosion of Nazi propaganda, the return of political parties, and the embargo of a crumbling Ordenstaat Burgund following Heinrich Himmler's demise in 1980 (attributed to the leader as his "last project"). Rumors continue to circulate to this day that this act of effectively holding their erstwhile leader hostage in his latter days was also reinforced by how they held enough incriminating proof of complicity in the NSDAP's worst acts, much more than what's been divulged since his death in '82, that there was no other choice.
Whatever the truth, the subsequent ascension of Karl Carstens marked a death knell, his own appointment a formality arranged by Reichschancellor Kiesinger. The last pieces needed for dismantling the regime were in place, for within the next few years, the last NSDAP hardliners were pushed aside, a new constitution was passed, and the first free elections since the Weimar Republic were held, with Schmidt as figurehead President. As the last Führer stepped down with much ceremony in 1984, one chapter in history closed forever, and another began. One that the Federal Greater German Reich (Bundesreich) has much to take pride in.
Whether it's the expansive capital of Bundeshaupstadt Berlin, the glittering financial hub that's Frankfurt, the cultural and Prussian martial heritage of Königsberg, or even the picturesque Gotenhalbinsel-Krim, one could almost taste the wealth and comfort savored by the average citizen. Its most successful corporations, including Siemens AG and Deutsches Telekom-NetzRAM GmbH are considered models to emulate across the Western world. Those who still remember the old Reich or even the Weimar years, however, would find a strange paradox: a liberalized society that would once have been labeled as "Bolshevist" and "degenerate," from the resurgence of the Social Democratic Party (nicknamed the Schwarz-Rot-Gold following Willy Brant's return from exile and later Presidency) to the growing prominence of women in positions of power. At the same time, it's staunchly German in its traditions and popular culture, comparable to the fervent patriotism of the Japanese and Americans. While it still struggles to confront the taint of Nazi rule, they take pride in reclaiming their way of life from the NSDAP (which still exists as a perennial fringe party) and not being defined by the sins of their forefathers.
This prosperity and prestige can be attributed in no small part to the European Customs Union (Zollverein). Originally conceived as means to further consolidate and outright replace the moribund Einheitspakt, it has evolved under the Gang of Four's influence to become a genuine economic and political bloc. While it's true that some of the alliance's constituents are former Reichskommisariats and puppet states that gained independence over the past decades, its member states and observers are all sovereign, willing participants that have mutually benefited from German hegemony. Indeed, similarly to the Koalition der Nationen (still seen by some as Speer's greatest engineering project), it's not only expanded to include countries as far-flung as Argentina and Tanganyika, but has also become an indelible lynchpin in the current international system.
Not all is right with the world, however. The legacy of Himmler's nightmare can still be found in the nigh-perpetual restoration efforts in the former Ordenstaat, whether in the autonomous regions annexed by the French and Dutch, or the "Burgundian Special Mandate." Schmidt's approval of direct Zollverein and Bundesreich intervention in the mid '80s remains one of the more contested parts of the man's otherwise sterling reputation. Meanwhile, the restoration of the Soviet Union under "orthodox" Marxism-Leninism as espoused by Mikhail Suslov and Genrikh Yagoda had once raised the specter of a potential threat to Europe. While the Communists had gradually undergone their own move towards reform, however muted, this has nonetheless prompted the continued military support for Mikhail Gorbachev's successors in White Muscovy and the German-majority Volga Republic, which a few have criticized as being an attempt at recreating the former ROA of Samara "done right." To say nothing of continued rivalries with the US-aligned Organization of Free Nations (especially over a renewed space race), or an ascendant Co-Prosperity Sphere that proved more resilient than the Rising Sun's defeat in the Great Asian War made it seem (its influence expanding to reach the Middle East and even post).
Yet with an America willing to uphold its end of a long-running détente, and with the democratic "Shōwa Restoration" (quipped by locals as "Takagi's revenge") bearing fruit in the Empire of Japan, the future looks bright, all the same. Whether or not the reinvigorated Reich could last a thousand years, Germany has risen from the ashes of the New Order, and is undoubtedly here to stay.
Einigkeit, Recht, Freiheit. Über Deutschland scheint.
For some added trivia, the title is both a reference to the Germany Future Compass and Auferstanden aus Ruinen, the East German national anthem. While the song is associated with the DDR, the song paradoxically lacks any real socialist connotations and still hauntingly holds up well long after the Cold War. With the lyrics themselves being rather thematically appropos.
German President Edmund Stoiber had served as the 16th Minister President of Bavaria between 1993 and 2007, and Chairman of the Christian Social Union (CSU) between 1999 and 2007, as well as having lost to Gerhard Schröder in the 2002 elections. In his OTL political tenure, he was relatively reserved in in his support for the EU, but nonetheless endorsed the idea of a continental confederation and single "European" army.
Sabine Bergmann-Pohl is German doctor and political figure in OTL, having served positions as varied as President of the People's Chamber of East Germany during its final days and Federal Minister for Special Affairs in Chancellor Helmut Kohl's cabinet. Her presence as President of the Zollverein reflects the paradoxical conservative-progressive nature of Post-Speer Germany.
In OTL, the man who would have been Victor Emmanuel IV is the disputed head of the House of Savoy, its post-WW2 story almost as tumultuous as Italy itself. And yes, while Italians joining the Co-Prosperity Sphere might seem farfetched at first glance, it's not only based on a possible option in TNO, but also the cultural ties between them and the Japanese in real life.
The "Shōwa Restoration" described is a reference to a potential future event in TNO for Japan, following the tenure of Sōkichi Takagi (who in OTL was a moderate who opposed the militarists and had a hand in writing Japan's Postwar Constitution). It's also an ironic reversal of the real life equivalent attempted during the February 26 Incident, where it instead espoused "restoring power" Hirohito and abolishing the liberal Taishō democracy.
Gennady Zyuganov is in reality, the current General Secretary the Communist Party of the Russian Federation and Chairman of the Union of Communist Parties–Communist Party of the Soviet Union (UCP-CPSU) since 2001. Born in 1944, it's plausible that he would have wound up among the refugees who fled to either Komi or Genrikh Yagoda's stronghold at Irkutsk during the USSR's (initial) collapse.
The flag used for the 1975-84 Reich was made by LeonAudoth for the TNO subreddit.
The monitor screen effect is an edited version of this png vector: www.seekpng.com/ipng/u2q8a9u2o…
The micro world-a map used is based on the TNO cover by
and
.
Anyway, here's a new map I've been working on for a while: another cover of The New Order mod for Hearts of Iron IV. This one, however, is a post-epilogue map based on an generally successful version of the Reich's "good" path: the Albert Speer route wherein the "Gang of Four" succeed in turning him into a puppet and properly reform Germany into a democratic powerhouse, undoing decades of Nazism. If that sounds familiar, then it's more or less a better/more blursed rendition of TNO: The Mending Continent. The DeviantArt version can be found here.
While TNO can be notorious for how "cursed" or horrifying some of the paths and endings can be (some more subtly disturbing than others), there are some actual sane and genuinely good endings. The GO4 scenario is only one of many "good ends," which can range from a spacefaring America to a democratic Imperial Japan, Anarcho-Christian Russia under Alexander Men to even "wholesome" variants of the USSR. There's more to the mod than hopeless nightmares under the Black Sun, though just might take a bit more effort.
The text having parallels to the Faschismus mit Grossdeutsche Eigenschaften map, is also deliberate, even if only to highlight the stark contrast with the "Dengist Speer" outcome. While the "present" state of affairs could be described as a peculiar blend of the Weimar Republic, East Germany, OTL European Union and even Postwar Japan, and though "Denazification" plays out more gradually or "conservative" in certain respects, it's still a massive world of difference, for the better.
At any rate, this is a work of fiction. This is not a political or ideological screed. Depiction is not endorsement.
All the same, hope you enjoy this as much as I have in making it!
----
TNO: Rising from the Ruins
TNO: Rising from the Ruins
The Greater Germanic Reich is not what it once was. It has changed. It has transcended what Hitler could have dreamed of. Nay, abandoned it. Much of this, if not all, was attributed to the visionary work of Albert Speer. From simple architect to Minister of Armaments and War Production, and finally, Führer, he sought to steer his nation through the worst crisis in its history. In reality, it was his close advisors who were ultimately responsible for the reforms that have outlasted his death in 1982, and continue to serve well in the years since.
One has to turn back the clock to see how it came to pass. The so-called "Gang of Four," comprised of Helmut Schmidt, Kurt Georg Kiesinger, Ludwig Erhard, and Henning von Tresckow, used Führer Speer's "triumph" in the German Civil War to further push their agenda. This seemed a particularly difficult venture, to say the least. Decades of NSDAP rule had led to the assumption that the Reich's citizenry would attribute their relative prosperity and global clout to the Nazis. Despite opposition coming from corners of society as disparate as Prussian Junkers and socialist-leaning students, it's feared that any drive for reform would be an uphill battle that risked crippling the nation, if not worse. The Oil Crisis of 1972 seemed to validate those concerns. Yet by the time the Slave Revolt (the latter led by one Willy "Spartakus" Brandt) was resolved with little bloodshed, their gamble had begun paying off. The liberalizations, gradual as they were, meant that it had become more acceptable for reformists and other critics of the regime to be more vocal. The economic policies, meanwhile, proved resilient not only in the face of international turmoil, but also transformed a moribund system on the brink of collapse. Indeed, they had gained enough political influence to effectively assume de facto control over the government.
Thus, the last decade of Speer's rule was one where he held absolute rule in name, yet was reduced to approving reforms that were undoing the dream of a Thousand Year Reich before his own eyes. By the late '70s, Schmidt (by then one half of the Gang of Four as the rest died of old age) further limited the office's powers through reconstituting the position of Reichschancellor. It's through this that he and Kiesinger oversaw the progressive erosion of Nazi propaganda, the return of political parties, and the embargo of a crumbling Ordenstaat Burgund following Heinrich Himmler's demise in 1980 (attributed to the leader as his "last project"). Rumors continue to circulate to this day that this act of effectively holding their erstwhile leader hostage in his latter days was also reinforced by how they held enough incriminating proof of complicity in the NSDAP's worst acts, much more than what's been divulged since his death in '82, that there was no other choice.
Whatever the truth, the subsequent ascension of Karl Carstens marked a death knell, his own appointment a formality arranged by Reichschancellor Kiesinger. The last pieces needed for dismantling the regime were in place, for within the next few years, the last NSDAP hardliners were pushed aside, a new constitution was passed, and the first free elections since the Weimar Republic were held, with Schmidt as figurehead President. As the last Führer stepped down with much ceremony in 1984, one chapter in history closed forever, and another began. One that the Federal Greater German Reich (Bundesreich) has much to take pride in.
Whether it's the expansive capital of Bundeshaupstadt Berlin, the glittering financial hub that's Frankfurt, the cultural and Prussian martial heritage of Königsberg, or even the picturesque Gotenhalbinsel-Krim, one could almost taste the wealth and comfort savored by the average citizen. Its most successful corporations, including Siemens AG and Deutsches Telekom-NetzRAM GmbH are considered models to emulate across the Western world. Those who still remember the old Reich or even the Weimar years, however, would find a strange paradox: a liberalized society that would once have been labeled as "Bolshevist" and "degenerate," from the resurgence of the Social Democratic Party (nicknamed the Schwarz-Rot-Gold following Willy Brant's return from exile and later Presidency) to the growing prominence of women in positions of power. At the same time, it's staunchly German in its traditions and popular culture, comparable to the fervent patriotism of the Japanese and Americans. While it still struggles to confront the taint of Nazi rule, they take pride in reclaiming their way of life from the NSDAP (which still exists as a perennial fringe party) and not being defined by the sins of their forefathers.
This prosperity and prestige can be attributed in no small part to the European Customs Union (Zollverein). Originally conceived as means to further consolidate and outright replace the moribund Einheitspakt, it has evolved under the Gang of Four's influence to become a genuine economic and political bloc. While it's true that some of the alliance's constituents are former Reichskommisariats and puppet states that gained independence over the past decades, its member states and observers are all sovereign, willing participants that have mutually benefited from German hegemony. Indeed, similarly to the Koalition der Nationen (still seen by some as Speer's greatest engineering project), it's not only expanded to include countries as far-flung as Argentina and Tanganyika, but has also become an indelible lynchpin in the current international system.
Not all is right with the world, however. The legacy of Himmler's nightmare can still be found in the nigh-perpetual restoration efforts in the former Ordenstaat, whether in the autonomous regions annexed by the French and Dutch, or the "Burgundian Special Mandate." Schmidt's approval of direct Zollverein and Bundesreich intervention in the mid '80s remains one of the more contested parts of the man's otherwise sterling reputation. Meanwhile, the restoration of the Soviet Union under "orthodox" Marxism-Leninism as espoused by Mikhail Suslov and Genrikh Yagoda had once raised the specter of a potential threat to Europe. While the Communists had gradually undergone their own move towards reform, however muted, this has nonetheless prompted the continued military support for Mikhail Gorbachev's successors in White Muscovy and the German-majority Volga Republic, which a few have criticized as being an attempt at recreating the former ROA of Samara "done right." To say nothing of continued rivalries with the US-aligned Organization of Free Nations (especially over a renewed space race), or an ascendant Co-Prosperity Sphere that proved more resilient than the Rising Sun's defeat in the Great Asian War made it seem (its influence expanding to reach the Middle East and even post).
Yet with an America willing to uphold its end of a long-running détente, and with the democratic "Shōwa Restoration" (quipped by locals as "Takagi's revenge") bearing fruit in the Empire of Japan, the future looks bright, all the same. Whether or not the reinvigorated Reich could last a thousand years, Germany has risen from the ashes of the New Order, and is undoubtedly here to stay.
Einigkeit, Recht, Freiheit. Über Deutschland scheint.
----
For some added trivia, the title is both a reference to the Germany Future Compass and Auferstanden aus Ruinen, the East German national anthem. While the song is associated with the DDR, the song paradoxically lacks any real socialist connotations and still hauntingly holds up well long after the Cold War. With the lyrics themselves being rather thematically appropos.
German President Edmund Stoiber had served as the 16th Minister President of Bavaria between 1993 and 2007, and Chairman of the Christian Social Union (CSU) between 1999 and 2007, as well as having lost to Gerhard Schröder in the 2002 elections. In his OTL political tenure, he was relatively reserved in in his support for the EU, but nonetheless endorsed the idea of a continental confederation and single "European" army.
Sabine Bergmann-Pohl is German doctor and political figure in OTL, having served positions as varied as President of the People's Chamber of East Germany during its final days and Federal Minister for Special Affairs in Chancellor Helmut Kohl's cabinet. Her presence as President of the Zollverein reflects the paradoxical conservative-progressive nature of Post-Speer Germany.
In OTL, the man who would have been Victor Emmanuel IV is the disputed head of the House of Savoy, its post-WW2 story almost as tumultuous as Italy itself. And yes, while Italians joining the Co-Prosperity Sphere might seem farfetched at first glance, it's not only based on a possible option in TNO, but also the cultural ties between them and the Japanese in real life.
The "Shōwa Restoration" described is a reference to a potential future event in TNO for Japan, following the tenure of Sōkichi Takagi (who in OTL was a moderate who opposed the militarists and had a hand in writing Japan's Postwar Constitution). It's also an ironic reversal of the real life equivalent attempted during the February 26 Incident, where it instead espoused "restoring power" Hirohito and abolishing the liberal Taishō democracy.
Gennady Zyuganov is in reality, the current General Secretary the Communist Party of the Russian Federation and Chairman of the Union of Communist Parties–Communist Party of the Soviet Union (UCP-CPSU) since 2001. Born in 1944, it's plausible that he would have wound up among the refugees who fled to either Komi or Genrikh Yagoda's stronghold at Irkutsk during the USSR's (initial) collapse.
The flag used for the 1975-84 Reich was made by LeonAudoth for the TNO subreddit.
The monitor screen effect is an edited version of this png vector: www.seekpng.com/ipng/u2q8a9u2o…
The micro world-a map used is based on the TNO cover by
and
.----
Alternate Version:
Unfiltered Version:
Alternate Version:
Unfiltered Version:
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It is difficult to overstate how much I appreciated that reference.
Nice touch
Is some variation of the Atlantropa Project still being carried out? Or has that been ended now that there is reform?
I really like your map, it's a great job!
How did you come up with all these ideas?
It reminds me of a card I made at the beginning of the year for a MOTF.
Hello everyone! This is my first participation in a MotF contest. I hope my map will entertain you.
The last red Banner
"The first Prophet, Kaal Maath the Scholar, comes to see the Qtzesar,
He showed him the Scythe that would cut the evil King.
The Qtzesar didn't listen to the Prophet.
The second prophet, Lehen Hin the Brave, came to the Qtzesar,
He showed him the Hammer that would crush the evil King.
The Qtzesar didn't listen to the Prophet.
The third prophet, Stahl Ahalin the Warrior, came to the Qtzesar,
He had with him the Scythe, the Hammer and the Purple Cloak of the Revolution.
The Qtzesar was dead. »
Suwietism is one of the oldest religions in the world. Its origins are lost in the Flood of Fire 2000 years ago. As far as we know from our writings and oral chants, an evil King ruled over a powerful Empire in the Far North. This bloodthirsty Monarch enslaved the people, plundering and slaughtering all those who opposed his rule.Three prophets went to meet this King, announcing the end of his Empire if he did not change. The King did not listen to them and persecuted them. After the death of the first two prophets, the third prophet, Stahl Ahalin, led the revolt with the weapons of his predecessors and the Purple Cloak. He killed the Evil King and took the title of "Father of the Peoples".
He founded the Holy Suwiet Kingdom. In this Kingdom everyone lived happily, the poor and destitute ate their fill and the exploited hunted the Kah-pital in the snows of the north, the Gulag. The Suwiet people built powerful cities and towns never seen anywhere else. Stahl Ahalin decided to liberate the other peoples of the Earth. But the Kah-pital led by Baron Nuar, brother of the Qtzesar, invaded the Suwiet Kingdom. The Suwiet people endured many of the horrors of this war but succeeded in driving the invaders back to the western confines of the continent.
Baron Nuar, not accepting his defeat, crossed the ocean to take refuge on a cursed continent. From there he prepared a Horror that would sweep the world. He provoked a Flood of Fire on all the cities of the World, causing the death of millions of people. His demonic fire transformed the rich and abundant earth into soiled and sterile land, making the people living there sick. Stahl Ahalin, seeing the destruction of the Suwiet Kingdom, took his people to the mountains of the south, his homeland spared from the flood. Stahl Ahalin before he died gave the red banner of Suwiet and asked his followers to spread it over the whole earth. He also promised his return before the end of time to lead all peoples to Freedom and reveal the name of God.
When he died, his tomb became the centre of all Suwiet pilgrimages. His disciples set out to spread the Suwiet faith with a red banner each. These spread throughout the known world, on all four continents, driving out the last Kah-pital monarchs. But for 1000 years Suwiet has been in decline. Many people reject the red banners. Entire peoples turn their backs on the faith of the three prophets, preferring to bow down before idols. A powerful empire in the Far East, Bharat spreads a new pagan cult on the lands of Suwiet.
In addition, barbarians from the north, coming from the Gulag lands, plunder and ransack the towns and cities of the Kingdom. Finally, the poisons of the earth caused by the Flood are spreading more and more over the last inhabitable lands. Baron Nuar's miasmas kill newborn babies and men in the prime of life.
For many, the end of time has come and the return of the Third Prophet and his two companions is imminent. But will they forgive their followers the decadence and decline of Suwiet? Will they save the people turning their backs on Baron Nuar hidden on his continent? Will we give the meaning of the name of God, "CCCP"?
View attachment 523866
The fact that they failed to conquer everything between the Volga and the Oder strongly indicates they do not have a Batman in their arsenal.
The Atlantropa Project was "completed" by the Iberians with the dam being actually finished.
Thanks!
Well, I said mass production as a catchphrase. Of course, the USSR does not have atomic bombers and nuclear missiles; it can only afford primitive nuclear landmines against advancing enemies. Using them requires a great tactical mind, which the Soviet Union did not have in that internecine period.
Hah, these are not our good old steppe nomads with bows and yurts, they are post-apocalyptic hellish nomads armed with a firearm
.I remember this post, it was very cool.
I assure you, I didn't take inspiration from it. I came up with this idea in the summer when I realized that USSR is the main participant and victim of the war on all post-WWIII maps. So I decided to make a map where the USSR did not actually participate in a nuclear war. The original scenario meant to be only 20 years after the end of the war, but over time, the idea evolved into "the USSR as Byzantium in the nuclear Dark Ages."
It was not a reproach or an accusation of plagiarism. On the contrary, I would have been flattered to inspire others! Therefore I think that ideas do not belong to anyone in particular and should be freely taken up (exception to the blatant plagiarism). Which competition or challenge was the "Byzantine USSR" part of? Do you have a link for me to go and see the other participants?
I agree with you.
Unfortunately this is not a challenge or a contest, I just put the name of my idea in quotes
My very dancing-on-the-line submission for the MotF 227: Here be WMDs Dragons
QUESTION: Before we tackle the future, let's just look at the last ten days if we can. Colin Powell becomes a hawk. Eugene Maxwell is back. Samia Nkrumah has an audience with the Pope. And Home Depot is teaching people how to make safe rooms in their homes with duct tape. Can you help us make sense of this?
CHOMSKY: First of all, as far as Colin Powell is concerned, he always was a hack and he remains a hawk. As far as the duct tape is concerned, I don't know what John Aschcroft knows. But it has been predicted by US intelligence and other intelligence agencies that an attack on Mali, or a planned attack on Mali, is likely to increase the threat of militant activity in the West - for pretty obvious reasons. Either as a deterrent or later on as revenge. So what was anticipated by the intelligence agencies and by independent analysts is that a war with Mali is very likely to increase the threat of militancy, maybe violent militancy. And this threat is taken extremely serious.
QUESTION: Well, if you look at the polls, can you help us understand why does President Bush have such overwhelming support here in the United States, seemingly, and such overwhelming opposition in the international community?
CHOMSKY: For one thing, he doesn't have overwhelming support from Americans. It's true that if you look at, say, the International Gallup polls - which have not been reported in the United States, but they're very instructive - they do show overwhelming opposition throughout Europe, Asia, Latin America particularly, all of Europe, in fact. And they do apparently show greater support in the United States and other English-speaking countries, higher in the United States than elsewhere. But those figures are pretty misleading. Because there's another difference between the United States and the rest of the world. And one has to take that into account. Thomas Sankara is despised throughout the world, including the region. And everyone would like to see him disappear from the face of the Earth. But there is only one country in which he's feared. And that's the United States. And that's, incidentally, since September. If you take a look at polls since the drumbeat of propaganda about Sankara being a threat to our existence it began in September. Since then on the order of two-third of the public in the United States does genuinely believe that if we don't stop him today he is going to kill us tomorrow.
QUESTION: Well, what if George Bush and Tony Blair are right? What if they are welcomed in Mali as the great liberators? Then would it have been worth it to go in?
CHOMSY: Would it be worth taking the risk of maybe killing tens of thousands of Malians and maybe destroying the country, maybe increasing militant threats in the West, because possibly a best-case scenario would work out? That's hardly sane and rational behavior. You have to have really strong arguments for the use of violence. The burden of proof for the resort to violence is very high. That's true whether it's personal affairs or international affairs. The argument that "Well, maybe it will turn out fine," that's not an argument for the use of violence.
QUESTION: And they would say, "What are you supposed to do, ignore all of the violations that you've seen Mali commit?"
CHOMSKY: A war on Mali could have adverse effects on the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the world. At present the United States is giving a very dangerous lesson to the world. It is about to attack Mali, which does not really seem to have such weapons of mass destruction. But when North Korea announced that it would leave the treaty of non-proliferation and build up its arsenal of nuclear weapons, George W. Bush said he would treat this as a diplomatic question. What is everybody around the world going to think? If we don’t have weapons of mass destruction the USA may well attack us. But if we do develop weapons of mass destruction they are never going to take the risk. After this crisis, any leader finding himself in a situation like that of Thomas Sankara would make sure that they develop an arsenal quickly, to ensure their own sovereignty.
QUESTION: Do you think it is possible Sankara is telling the truth about not planning to develop weapons of mass destruction?
CHOMSKY: The UN inspectors certainly seem to think so! The case against Mali, as presented by the pundits, is more based on lack of evidence than in concrete evidence itself. It is unaccounted supplies and the fact that they cannot see what is happening inside the country, that they don't know what's there, that makes them fan the flames. According to UN reports, Mali has been dedicated to producing energy through hydroelectric dams in their rivers and planting millions of trees in the Sahel region to combat desertification. Reports which the United States refuse to admit. Under Sankara, the country has gone from a food importer to a food exporter. All of that stands at risk with a war with the United States, who do have weapons of mass destruction and are not afraid to use them. And all of this not based on evidence of any ill-doing, but really only because of a need to take down a regime that is adversarial to the United States. In a whim.
QUESTION: So it's impossible to say what really is happening inside Mali, as Collin Powell has claimed?
CHOMSKY: It certainly is. It is as plausible to claim with that sort of confidence that they have nuclear weapons as it is to claim they have dragons.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway, I hope it is not necessary to say that the scenario is kind of a rip-off of the one with Iraq and Saddam. In fact, the interview with Chomsky is essentially this one, if anyone wants to read it. And if I've forgotten to change "Iraq" for "Mali" or "Saddam" for "Sankara" anywhere, please do warn me!
Here, we deal with the idea that, ultimately, all information we receive can be manipulated for the purposes of propaganda. In this case, we have two maps (or rather, two versions of the same map), depicting the same country, under the same leadership, with the same outwards appearance, but whose interior aspects are simply undecipherable and, therefore, lead to two renditions so much unlike that, in the end, one of them must be incorrect, while both of them are certainly speculative, and to be taken with a grain of salt.
As to which one is correct? To be honest, I decided I don't know, as I did both maps knowing they were pieces of propaganda, and not depicting reality (even an alternate reality). So, probably neither is very much correct, or is at least missing a lot of crucial details on purpose.
As always, hope you like it and do ask questions or write comments on it!
CHOMSKY: First of all, as far as Colin Powell is concerned, he always was a hack and he remains a hawk. As far as the duct tape is concerned, I don't know what John Aschcroft knows. But it has been predicted by US intelligence and other intelligence agencies that an attack on Mali, or a planned attack on Mali, is likely to increase the threat of militant activity in the West - for pretty obvious reasons. Either as a deterrent or later on as revenge. So what was anticipated by the intelligence agencies and by independent analysts is that a war with Mali is very likely to increase the threat of militancy, maybe violent militancy. And this threat is taken extremely serious.
QUESTION: Well, if you look at the polls, can you help us understand why does President Bush have such overwhelming support here in the United States, seemingly, and such overwhelming opposition in the international community?
CHOMSKY: For one thing, he doesn't have overwhelming support from Americans. It's true that if you look at, say, the International Gallup polls - which have not been reported in the United States, but they're very instructive - they do show overwhelming opposition throughout Europe, Asia, Latin America particularly, all of Europe, in fact. And they do apparently show greater support in the United States and other English-speaking countries, higher in the United States than elsewhere. But those figures are pretty misleading. Because there's another difference between the United States and the rest of the world. And one has to take that into account. Thomas Sankara is despised throughout the world, including the region. And everyone would like to see him disappear from the face of the Earth. But there is only one country in which he's feared. And that's the United States. And that's, incidentally, since September. If you take a look at polls since the drumbeat of propaganda about Sankara being a threat to our existence it began in September. Since then on the order of two-third of the public in the United States does genuinely believe that if we don't stop him today he is going to kill us tomorrow.
QUESTION: Well, what if George Bush and Tony Blair are right? What if they are welcomed in Mali as the great liberators? Then would it have been worth it to go in?
CHOMSY: Would it be worth taking the risk of maybe killing tens of thousands of Malians and maybe destroying the country, maybe increasing militant threats in the West, because possibly a best-case scenario would work out? That's hardly sane and rational behavior. You have to have really strong arguments for the use of violence. The burden of proof for the resort to violence is very high. That's true whether it's personal affairs or international affairs. The argument that "Well, maybe it will turn out fine," that's not an argument for the use of violence.
QUESTION: And they would say, "What are you supposed to do, ignore all of the violations that you've seen Mali commit?"
CHOMSKY: A war on Mali could have adverse effects on the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the world. At present the United States is giving a very dangerous lesson to the world. It is about to attack Mali, which does not really seem to have such weapons of mass destruction. But when North Korea announced that it would leave the treaty of non-proliferation and build up its arsenal of nuclear weapons, George W. Bush said he would treat this as a diplomatic question. What is everybody around the world going to think? If we don’t have weapons of mass destruction the USA may well attack us. But if we do develop weapons of mass destruction they are never going to take the risk. After this crisis, any leader finding himself in a situation like that of Thomas Sankara would make sure that they develop an arsenal quickly, to ensure their own sovereignty.
QUESTION: Do you think it is possible Sankara is telling the truth about not planning to develop weapons of mass destruction?
CHOMSKY: The UN inspectors certainly seem to think so! The case against Mali, as presented by the pundits, is more based on lack of evidence than in concrete evidence itself. It is unaccounted supplies and the fact that they cannot see what is happening inside the country, that they don't know what's there, that makes them fan the flames. According to UN reports, Mali has been dedicated to producing energy through hydroelectric dams in their rivers and planting millions of trees in the Sahel region to combat desertification. Reports which the United States refuse to admit. Under Sankara, the country has gone from a food importer to a food exporter. All of that stands at risk with a war with the United States, who do have weapons of mass destruction and are not afraid to use them. And all of this not based on evidence of any ill-doing, but really only because of a need to take down a regime that is adversarial to the United States. In a whim.
QUESTION: So it's impossible to say what really is happening inside Mali, as Collin Powell has claimed?
CHOMSKY: It certainly is. It is as plausible to claim with that sort of confidence that they have nuclear weapons as it is to claim they have dragons.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway, I hope it is not necessary to say that the scenario is kind of a rip-off of the one with Iraq and Saddam. In fact, the interview with Chomsky is essentially this one, if anyone wants to read it. And if I've forgotten to change "Iraq" for "Mali" or "Saddam" for "Sankara" anywhere, please do warn me!
Here, we deal with the idea that, ultimately, all information we receive can be manipulated for the purposes of propaganda. In this case, we have two maps (or rather, two versions of the same map), depicting the same country, under the same leadership, with the same outwards appearance, but whose interior aspects are simply undecipherable and, therefore, lead to two renditions so much unlike that, in the end, one of them must be incorrect, while both of them are certainly speculative, and to be taken with a grain of salt.
As to which one is correct? To be honest, I decided I don't know, as I did both maps knowing they were pieces of propaganda, and not depicting reality (even an alternate reality). So, probably neither is very much correct, or is at least missing a lot of crucial details on purpose.
As always, hope you like it and do ask questions or write comments on it!
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There’s a missed Iraq in the third-last paragraphMy very dancing-on-the-line submission for the MotF 227: Here beWMDsDragons
QUESTION: Before we tackle the future, let's just look at the last ten days if we can. Colin Powell becomes a hawk. Eugene Maxwell is back. Samia Nkrumah has an audience with the Pope. And Home Depot is teaching people how to make safe rooms in their homes with duct tape. Can you help us make sense of this?
CHOMSKY: First of all, as far as Colin Powell is concerned, he always was a hack and he remains a hawk. As far as the duct tape is concerned, I don't know what John Aschcroft knows. But it has been predicted by US intelligence and other intelligence agencies that an attack on Mali, or a planned attack on Mali, is likely to increase the threat of militant activity in the West - for pretty obvious reasons. Either as a deterrent or later on as revenge. So what was anticipated by the intelligence agencies and by independent analysts is that a war with Mali is very likely to increase the threat of militancy, maybe violent militancy. And this threat is taken extremely serious.
QUESTION: Well, if you look at the polls, can you help us understand why does President Bush have such overwhelming support here in the United States, seemingly, and such overwhelming opposition in the international community?
CHOMSKY: For one thing, he doesn't have overwhelming support from Americans. It's true that if you look at, say, the International Gallup polls - which have not been reported in the United States, but they're very instructive - they do show overwhelming opposition throughout Europe, Asia, Latin America particularly, all of Europe, in fact. And they do apparently show greater support in the United States and other English-speaking countries, higher in the United States than elsewhere. But those figures are pretty misleading. Because there's another difference between the United States and the rest of the world. And one has to take that into account. Thomas Sankara is despised throughout the world, including the region. And everyone would like to see him disappear from the face of the Earth. But there is only one country in which he's feared. And that's the United States. And that's, incidentally, since September. If you take a look at polls since the drumbeat of propaganda about Sankara being a threat to our existence it began in September. Since then on the order of two-third of the public in the United States does genuinely believe that if we don't stop him today he is going to kill us tomorrow.
QUESTION: Well, what if George Bush and Tony Blair are right? What if they are welcomed in Mali as the great liberators? Then would it have been worth it to go in?
CHOMSY: Would it be worth taking the risk of maybe killing tens of thousands of Malians and maybe destroying the country, maybe increasing militant threats in the West, because possibly a best-case scenario would work out? That's hardly sane and rational behavior. You have to have really strong arguments for the use of violence. The burden of proof for the resort to violence is very high. That's true whether it's personal affairs or international affairs. The argument that "Well, maybe it will turn out fine," that's not an argument for the use of violence.
QUESTION: And they would say, "What are you supposed to do, ignore all of the violations that you've seen Mali commit?"
CHOMSKY: A war on Mali could have adverse effects on the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the world. At present the United States is giving a very dangerous lesson to the world. It is about to attack Mali, which does not really seem to have such weapons of mass destruction. But when North Korea announced that it would leave the treaty of non-proliferation and build up its arsenal of nuclear weapons, George W. Bush said he would treat this as a diplomatic question. What is everybody around the world going to think? If we don’t have weapons of mass destruction the USA may well attack us. But if we do develop weapons of mass destruction they are never going to take the risk. After this crisis, any leader finding himself in a situation like that of Thomas Sankara would make sure that they develop an arsenal quickly, to ensure their own sovereignty.
QUESTION: Do you think it is possible Sankara is telling the truth about not planning to develop weapons of mass destruction?
CHOMSKY: The UN inspectors certainly seem to think so! The case against Iraq, as presented by the pundits, is more based on lack of evidence than in concrete evidence itself. It is unaccounted supplies and the fact that they cannot see what is happening inside the country, that they don't know what's there, that makes them fan the flames. According to UN reports, Mali has been dedicated to producing energy through hydroelectric dams in their rivers and planting millions of trees in the Sahel region to combat desertification. Reports which the United States refuse to admit. Under Sankara, the country has gone from a food importer to a food exporter. All of that stands at risk with a war with the United States, who do have weapons of mass destruction and are not afraid to use them. And all of this not based on evidence of any ill-doing, but really only because of a need to take down a regime that is adversarial to the United States. In a whim.
QUESTION: So it's impossible to say what really is happening inside Mali, as Collin Powell has claimed?
CHOMSKY: It certainly is. It is as plausible to claim with that sort of confidence that they have nuclear weapons as it is to claim they have dragons.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Anyway, I hope it is not necessary to say that the scenario is kind of a rip-off of the one with Iraq and Saddam. In fact, the interview with Chomsky is essentially this one, if anyone wants to read it. And if I've forgotten to change "Iraq" for "Mali" or "Saddam" for "Sankara" anywhere, please do warn me!
Here, we deal with the idea that, ultimately, all information we receive can be manipulated for the purposes of propaganda. In this case, we have two maps (or rather, two versions of the same map), depicting the same country, under the same leadership, with the same outwards appearance, but whose interior aspects are simply undecipherable and, therefore, lead to two renditions so much unlike that, in the end, one of them must be incorrect, while both of them are certainly speculative, and to be taken with a grain of salt.
As to which one is correct? To be honest, I decided I don't know, as I did both maps knowing they were pieces of propaganda, and not depicting reality (even an alternate reality). So, probably neither is very much correct, or is at least missing a lot of crucial details on purpose.
As always, hope you like it and do ask questions or write comments on it!
- Status