Patton in Korea/MacArthur in the White House

[Major Major]

And how would he know that? Truman often made baseless statements, that historians shouldn't take at face value

Such as his claim that MacArthur was flying around Wake so that he would land after the President landed. He had arrived there the day before.

 

[thekingsguard]

On Patton and desegregation, I expect he wouldn't be opposed at all... he advocated strongly for black soldiers in the military, more so if they were HIS black soldiers. Of all his tanker units, there were few he loved more dearly or respected than the 761st... the Black Panthers, aka Patton's Panthers.

One of the few speeches on race we have on him was him addressing black soldiers, telling them - truthfully - many in America wanted them to fail, that black America was watching them, that America was watching them, and most importantly, HE was watching them... because no soldier under his command would be allowed to fail.

Give Patton a desegregated military, he's liable to turn a few black soldiers into war heroes. Many other commanders used them for support roles, but he knew damn well what they could do with some Shermans.

 

[Pesterfield]

“Training has to be first. Most of the troops are still green, and don’t know anything about holding a flank or proper patrols.”

Why aren't most of the troops WW2 veterans?
It hasn't been that long since the last war.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

So will there be any of the OTL stupidity of "we don't need more troops really" by Dugout Doug? The Greeks in OTL for example had prepared to send an infantry brigade, then it was reduced to an reinforced battalion.

Stupidity from MacArthur? That's pretty much a certainty!

I recall there was an episode where MacArthur was visiting the 4077th, but all we saw was a guy in khakis being driven to the hospital, they having spent no end of time making the place look acceptable.

But no, I doubt they would have an episode with Patton, with or without Scott. On the other hand, the original novel, by "Richard Hooker" [Richard Hornberger] might have something. It was different in some ways from the movie and the show.

Yeah, but MacArthur only visited Korea a half dozen or so times, and none of them for more than a couple hours apiece. Patton visited field hospitals almost every day - it would make a lot more sense for him to be seen at one.

Give Patton a desegregated military, he's liable to turn a few black soldiers into war heroes. Many other commanders used them for support roles, but he knew damn well what they could do with some Shermans.

Love the analysis! Though let's hope he gives them some Pershings or M46s this time - a Sherman won't be much good

Why aren't most of the troops WW2 veterans?
It hasn't been that long since the last war.

Demobilisation had a lot to do with it. A lot of the troops in Korea (at least initially, I still have to check about later) were draftees that weren't old enough to have fought in WWII. The Marines were of course a fair bit better in this regard.

- BNC

 

[Belisarius II]

CHAPTER 6

I cannot name my battles
For the visions are not clear,
Yet, I see the twisted faces
And I feel the rending spear.

August 6, 1950

Douglas MacArthur considered his trip to Taejon, just his second to Korea since hostilities began, to have been a great success. Reporters and cameras from Life magazine, from the NBC and other radio and television networks, journalists from a couple dozen countries, had all captured the moments he walked through the largest city to be liberated from North Korean control so far. Every one of those reports would have General of the Army Douglas MacArthur front and centre. He was here. He was winning the war. The streets of Taejon, battered as they were, were entirely free again. All because of his leadership.
Though he would never admit it, not even to Jean, he knew that he wouldn’t be striding through Taejon today if not for Patton. The day that Patton had showed up in Korea, Eighth Army was in retreat basically everywhere, and the troops in Taejon had thought they would be fighting a holding action for just a few days to give the rest of the army time to set up a position in front of Pusan. Patton had done seemingly done it by kicking butts harder and more often than anyone else had dared. It had worked: communications between the units were not perfect, but certainly a lot better than they were. Discipline and troop confidence was also greatly improved. Equipment and manpower remained a problem, but the only way those were being solved was by ships coming from the other side of the Pacific.
Patton had kicked butts a little too hard though. That was why, as the press folks were leaving and the Bataan waited on a newly recaptured airstrip, he was sitting down with the general in what had once been a bank, and now was merely a building that was missing a good third or more of its south-facing walls. He hated confronting subordinate officers, but Patton wasn’t going to listen to Whitney and had refused to speak with Almond at all. So, after a brief exchange of greetings and congratulations, he decided to get straight to the point.
“I’ve got a problem.” MacArthur said. “A political problem, and I think you know all about it.”
“Mr Rhee? I already told the ambassador that he doesn’t know anything about fighting a war and should let me do the job properly.” Patton said, already angry.
“That may be so, but he’s contributing more than half of our manpower and is the whole reason we’re fighting out here. Someone has to listen to him.” MacArthur said.
“The orders have to stay. I don’t know how many goddamn times I got held up in France because nobody had a damn clue how to run our logistics. If they’d listened to me I’d have been over the Siegfried Line in two days and a tenth the casualties.” Patton said.
MacArthur decided to just let Patton rant about what could have been in Europe. He couldn’t afford to sack him: Truman had sent him not three weeks ago, and Washington had already involved itself far too much in the affairs in Asia. They’d already objected to his attempt to get Chinese troops to help hold the line, even though it was clear those troops were desperately needed. Finally, when Patton began claiming that he could have taken Berlin by the Christmas of 1944…
“Just shut up and listen for a minute, George.” MacArthur said. “The orders to clear the roads can stay. If someone around here had thought of them earlier I might have given them myself.” He didn’t need to mention that had he given them, it wouldn’t have been by shooting a mule in front of three hundred Koreans. “I’ll explain those to Mr Rhee as military necessity. I can’t say the same for the fifty thousand Koreans serving in units under your command, and he’s demanding they be placed under someone – anyone – but you. The program of integrating Korean and American units can’t go on unless someone else is in charge of it.”
“You’re splitting the command?” Patton asked angrily.
“It’s the only way he’ll tolerate you being in the country at all.” MacArthur explained. “And as you’re much too valuable to send back to California, I’m going to have to restrict your command to American troops only.” As of yet, Americans and South Koreans were the only troops manning the UN lines, but London had already promised a force to arrive before the end of the month and other countries were preparing contingents of their own. MacArthur doubted any of them wanted to be associated with Patton’s inability to be diplomatic.
“How do you expect me to man the lines if you’re taking half my troops away?” Patton demanded.
“I’ve already given you the Marine brigade, and Willoughby assures me there are no North Koreans remaining along the west coast. The two regiments there and the Marines will make up for most of the Koreans being removed from your command. And of course, more reinforcements are on the way from the States.” MacArthur explained. “Willoughby is also certain that the North Koreans west of the mountains are greatly weakened after the battle here.”
“Willoughby is…” Patton caught himself. “No, I’ll keep my mouth shut. But last week Hickey said you’d be taking the Marines away for ‘Chromite’, as well as a division that hasn’t even arrived yet. How am I to advance then?”
“As things stand, there is little need for further offensives at present. As long as the present positions can be held, ‘Chromite’ will allow us to trap the enemy and we shall win the war there.”
Although MacArthur had ordered everyone away from the building, a second lieutenant now stood at the doorway. “Urgent message for General Patton, sirs.” he said, announcing his arrival.
“What is it?” Patton asked.
“Andong has fallen, sir. Colonel Landrum thinks the communists have launched another big offensive.”
MacArthur dismissed Patton without a word. Andong was – no, had been – defended by an ROK unit. It hadn’t been implemented yet and already the decision to separate Korean units was looking like a bad one. If only the politicians would let the Army actually fight the war without interfering all the time.

***

August 8, 1950

“Sir, without the Koreans, we simply don’t have enough troops in the sector to do all that you ask.”
Nineteen words that summed up everything that was wrong with Eighth Army. As soon as they were out of his mouth, Colonel Creighton Abrams knew that his commander would not be happy. Patton never liked being told no, especially when he wanted to launch an offensive. He thought back to his days in Third Army, when Patton would repeat the phrase ‘never take counsel of your fears’, find some supplies that he later found out had come from other US armies, and then order the offensive go ahead anyway. In Korea, there were no other armies to take supplies from (the ROK troops didn’t have anything worth taking).
For a wonder, Patton didn’t curse him out. Half the headquarters staff it seemed had already experienced that. An hour after Patton called you a son of a bitch, he would be praising you as a fine officer again, but it wasn’t an experience Abrams looked forward to. The exception was Charles Willoughby in Tokyo, who he had decided was incompetent and refused to speak to at all. But instead, Patton listened. Maybe today he was in a good mood.
“What do we have the troops for?” he asked.
“You want to train troops up in the rear. You want to attack north from our bridgehead over the Kum River. You want to retake Kunsan. I can give you one of those today without jeopardising our positions, and a second once the 5th and 19th Regiments secure the southwest and turn it over to ROK police. That’s likely to take another three or four days, and they’d need another two to redeploy.” Abrams explained. He didn’t need to explain that those two regiments had taken far longer than expected to defeat the North Korean force still active around Mokpo. None of the battles there had been in any way decisive: heavy fire and the support of some tanks had made the Koreans retreat time and time again, but very few had been killed or taken prisoner. What was really needed down there was artillery, but every spare gun had been needed at Taejon. Mokpo had only been surrounded the previous day, and there was still something like half a division holed up in there.
“Priorities, then?” Patton said. “Training has to be first. Most of the troops are still green, and don’t know anything about holding a flank or proper patrols.”
Abrams made a note on a scrap of paper to make sure the commanders assigned to training duties were told to focus on making the troops watch their flanks. “What then, sir?”
“Seoul.” Patton said. “I expect local attacks to go in that direction even if the rest of the line can’t move forward. We have the enemy by the balls. Time to kick him in the ass.”
“I’ll have the orders ready.” Abrams said.
Seoul? That was a long way away. Even counting the two regiments in the south, Eighth Army still only had three divisions, and at least one of those would be combat ineffective for a while yet. Abrams wasn’t confident of getting near Seoul any time soon. He was feeling lucky that the NKPA had decided to strike further east.

***

August 12, 1950

Sergeant Carl Dodd crouched in a hastily-dug foxhole on the outskirts of Kwangju. The book in his pocket said not to dig foxholes, as they were bad for morale and didn’t do much to keep you alive. That might have been good advice if you were charging across the plains of France limited only by the horsepower of the engine of a Sherman tank. He hadn’t been a part of Third Army’s great charge, having served in a training role then. Now he was laying siege to God knew how many North Koreans. The front hadn’t moved much in five days, and no-one was keen to storm the town. Taejon had been an expensive battle for both sides. Word was that Taejon was located somewhere important. Kwangju wasn’t. A siege would do. The gooks had to be low on supplies anyway: every road on the west coast of Korea had been bombed to hell, and Navy Corsairs were a common sight over first Sunchon and then Kwangju itself.
He peered over the top of his foxhole, rifle at the ready. There was a North Korean coming out towards them. He was about to fire when he saw the white flag. Faint yellow really – whatever that rag he was holding was supposed to be, it clearly hadn’t been washed in a while. The intent couldn’t have been clearer.
“Hold your fire!” he yelled out, just in case his buddies didn’t see the fellow’s makeshift flag.
All there was left to do was wait. None of the Americans in his unit spoke Korean, but there were a few ROK troops nearby to take the man back to the command tent. The colonel would make a decision, presumably having already received orders from Patton.
The wait was long and tense, but Dodd still preferred it to being shot at, or worse, being under mortar fire. Eventually, word came out that the entire North Korean 6th Division was surrendering. He never saw that one North Korean soldier again, but others came out of the town with hands above their heads, so word was correct. Most of them looked starved half to death.
Later that night, one of the privates in his unit asked him a question that was on everyone’s minds. “Sarge, what are we supposed to do with four thousand prisoners?”
He thought about it, and then gave the best answer he could. “I don’t know. That’s for the generals to decide.” Had someone told him that not even the generals knew what to do, he wouldn’t have been too surprised.

- BNC

Well written, just MacArthur was always polite, and spoke like a Victorian Viceroy. He would never say "Just shut up George, and listen." When MacArthur spoke others just stopped, and listened. It would be more like. "Now George, we have an issue of political sensitivity. President Rhee is brewing up a storm with Washington over this order to clear the roads." Waving his pipe dismissively, he continued. "Not to worry your self George, you did the right thing. I will deal with that, but we need to find some way to deal with the refugee problem. The Korean People are suffering terribly in this war, and we must help them. There must be a way that doesn't interfere with operations. We've done it in the past, and must find a way to do it now. President Rhee is threatening to withdraw his army from 8th Army Command."

Now I can't imagine any American General allowing the ROK to operate independently, that would lead to disaster. The ROK's were dependent on the Americans for everything, but something would have to be done to smooth things over. On Patton swearing in front of MacArthur, he would say. "Now George let's not take the name of the Lord in Vain. It's a poor example to the men, and unworthy of a praying man, like yourself. Remember what we're fighting for George. We're engaged in a Holy Crusade against Godless Communism."

Yes Big Mac did speak like that, and he held his listeners spellbound. Very few could resist his magnetic personality. It was said that if MacArthur wasn't a soldier he'd be John Barrymore. FDR thought he was the most dangerous man in America, which is why he wanted him out of the country. A romantic type like Patton would be particularly susceptible to being swept up by MacArthur's oratory. If in a past life Patton was a Crusading Knight MacArthur would be Richard the Lionheart.

Well that's my poor literary critic. Keep up the good work, you have my attention.

 

[Belisarius II]

Why aren't most of the troops WW2 veterans?
It hasn't been that long since the last war.

Almost all the U.S. Troops were short term draftees. They came from soft occupation duty in Japan, and were victims of the Doolittle Committee, and the lack of training in anything higher then battalion level training. All but 2 regiments in the army had only 2 battalions, and most of those were only at 2/3 strength. The army suffered from critical equipment shortages. The U.S. went from having it's best mass army, to 5 years later having one of it's weakest. Fortunately the Marines kept their high standards.

On 27 March 1946 Doolittle was requested by the Secretary of War Robert P. Patterson to head a commission on the relationships between officers and enlisted men in the US Army. Called the "Doolittle Board" or informally the "GI Gripes Board" many of the recommendations were taken on board for the post war volunteer US Army,.[8] though many professional officers and non commissioned officers thought the Board "destroyed the discipline of the army".[9] After the Korean War columnist Hanson Baldwin said the Doolittle Board "caused severe damage to service effectiveness by recommendations intended to 'democratize' the Army - a concept that is self-contradictory".[10]

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Well written, just MacArthur was always polite, and spoke like a Victorian Viceroy. He would never say "Just shut up George, and listen." When MacArthur spoke others just stopped, and listened. It would be more like. "Now George, we have an issue of political sensitivity. President Rhee is brewing up a storm with Washington over this order to clear the roads." Waving his pipe dismissively, he continued. "Not to worry your self George, you did the right thing. I will deal with that, but we need to find some way to deal with the refugee problem. The Korean People are suffering terribly in this war, and we must help them. There must be a way that doesn't interfere with operations. We've done it in the past, and must find a way to do it now. President Rhee is threatening to withdraw his army from 8th Army Command."
...

Well that's my poor literary critic. Keep up the good work, you have my attention.

ARGH! I made a bunch of notes to that effect when I was reading a bio of Mac last year. Can't believe I forgot it! (though my notes for this TL at one point reached about 20k words' worth of dot points, so I'm not surprised a few things slipped through the cracks). Do you mind if I steal a few of your lines when I edit the chapter a bit later?

Now I can't imagine any American General allowing the ROK to operate independently, that would lead to disaster. The ROK's were dependent on the Americans for everything, but something would have to be done to smooth things over.

They're just going to be commanded direct from Tokyo (Rhee had given Mac control of them in the first place) rather than under 8th Army. Not cast off from the US entirely.

On Patton swearing in front of MacArthur, he would say. "Now George let's not take the name of the Lord in Vain. It's a poor example to the men, and unworthy of a praying man, like yourself. Remember what we're fighting for George. We're engaged in a Holy Crusade against Godless Communism."

Is there really any point telling Patton not to swear (especially when he's in a rage about losing half his troops!) ? I'm not sure he's physically capable of obeying an instruction like that.

Really appreciate the feedback - many thanks!

- BNC

 

[thekingsguard]

One request:

Patton and Puller. You gotta get the two of them in a room. More then once. For America.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

One request:

Patton and Puller. You gotta get the two of them in a room. More then once. For America.

Great suggestion! Definitely got to do that - too awesome not to!

- BNC

 

[Belisarius II]

ARGH! I made a bunch of notes to that effect when I was reading a bio of Mac last year. Can't believe I forgot it! (though my notes for this TL at one point reached about 20k words' worth of dot points, so I'm not surprised a few things slipped through the cracks). Do you mind if I steal a few of your lines when I edit the chapter a bit later?


They're just going to be commanded direct from Tokyo (Rhee had given Mac control of them in the first place) rather than under 8th Army. Not cast off from the US entirely.


Is there really any point telling Patton not to swear (especially when he's in a rage about losing half his troops!) ? I'm not sure he's physically capable of obeying an instruction like that.

Really appreciate the feedback - many thanks!

- BNC

Thank you. Feel free to use anything you want, that you think is good enough. It seems that command arrangement is a bit clumsy, but it could work as long as they conform to 8th Army direction. Is that really how it worked? I never knew that, or did I miss that in your story? No I don't think for a moment Patton would stop swearing, God knows I can't seem to stop myself, but just not in front of MacArthur.

 

[Deleted member 147289]

Patton is one of my favourite generals: his attitude, his tactics and in general his style points to a man who lives for battle. So you can easily understand why I'm excited for him to have cheated death in Germany and now leading the 8th Army in Korea.

He is doing his best with understrength divisions and low supplies and has held the NK at bay. I wonder what kind of damage can he do with 200.000 men, tanks, artillery and plenty of supplies!

 

[marathag]

Though let's hope he gives them some Pershings or M46s this time - a Sherman won't be much good

The M4A3E8 with 76mm had no troubles with the T-34/85 or Chinese 'Volunteer'JSU-152

 

[marathag]

After the Korean War columnist Hanson Baldwin said the Doolittle Board "caused severe damage to service effectiveness by recommendations intended to 'democratize' the Army - a concept that is self-contradicto

It was 'how do we keep anybody in the armed services if they aren't conscripted' Board.
The Victors of WWII had mostly moved onto civilian life by 1947.

 

[thekingsguard]

Great suggestion! Definitely got to do that - too awesome not to!

- BNC

Fun fact, they are real life cousins.

 

[mrmandias]

Wonderful TL. Keep it up.

 

[Seandineen]

What is Mark W. Clark upto?

 

[Admiral Jellicoe]

What is Mark W. Clark upto?

Probably still banging on about liberating Rome and simultaneously not mentioning how he let Kesselring escape

 

[Seandineen]

Makes sense he may want a role in this.

 

[Winestu]

What is Mark W. Clark upto?

Hopefully as far away from Korea as possible.

 

[marktaha]

And how would he know that? Truman often made baseless statements, that historians shouldn't take at face value. He based that guess on the fact they lost the war in mainland China. Chiang had saved his best troops, and had been training new ones. Chances are good that he had a number of good divisions, and with the USN guarding the waters around Formosa he could risk sending 4 of them to Korea.

I suspect Truman was better informed that you or me!