Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Chris S

OxSpace said:
So I was doing some reading regarding Hungary in WW2 and found some interesting concessions in discussions of September of 1943

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From my understanding, it seemed as though the British were in favor of revising much of the territorial acquisitions Hungary has made since the first Vienna award and that is opposed to returning to the former Trianon borders. It also mentions a division of Transylvania between Hungary and Romania; would this simply be a confirmation of the second Vienna award?
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FancyHat said:
"...revising much of the territorial acquisitions Hungary has made since the first Vienna award..." is a little difficult to parse, but yeah: seems like if Miklós Horthy had successfully switched sides to the Allies the British would've wanted Hungary to keep a decent amount of what they'd annexed from their neighbors. Personally I'd say that retaining the Second Vienna Award was most likely. First Vienna Award, less so given that the Munich Agreement had already been repudiated, but there might've at least been a referendum (absolutely not including Košice, though). As for Hungary's annexations of Yugoslav territory, I think the only part they could've plausibly kept would be Subotica.
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OxSpace said:
Well, the First Vienna Award was a direct consequence of the Munich Agreement, and any nullification of the Munich Agreement has really no effect on the FVA. The British were quite aware that a population exchange wasn't applicable to Hungary and Slovakia, so I can very much see them keeping much of the ethnic Hungarian land, and returning the Slovakian land back. The passage never mentions Subcarpathia, I'd assume that even with a Hungarian capitulation to the Allies early and immediate switch-over to aggression against Nazi Germany, the Soviets would've still taken Subcarpathia, or at least the Ukrainian side? The problem of Transylvania really depends on the Soviets all things considered. The British knew they had little to no diplomatic leverage over the status of the territory. Who knows if the Romanian coup would've still happened had Hungary switched over and if that would've had any effect on Transylvania. As for Yugoslavia, the partisans weren't very prominent within the Hungarian occupied zone and the flat terrain made it extremely difficult for any type of guerilla tactics. It was planned that once Hungary switched sides they'd offer support to Tito and the partisans. Maybe the switch of Hungary would prompt Churchill's planned Balkan invasion in which a significant advantage would be employed on the future of Yugoslavia and its government?
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Okay, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't see anything in the quoted image to even remotely suggest the British were considering letting Hungary keep territories acquired from Slovakia and Yugoslavia.

The quoted image says the Foreign Office (that is the British foreign office) did up a paper which explicitly is quoted as saying that as a defeated enemy state Hungary has no special considerations in regards to her future frontier particularly with regards to the British allies of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, but that this does not necessarily hold with regards to Romania as another defeated enemy state. It later states that the British Foreign Office's paper on the subject proposed the immediate return to Trianon borders for Hungary in relation to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia with the allusion that this would be disabuse the Hungarians of even the faintest ideas that special consideration would be given to revision of the Trianon frontiers.

The only possible non-Trianon boundaries envisioned are clearly only with Romania.
 

FancyHat

Chris S said:
Okay, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't see anything in the quoted image to even remotely suggest the British were considering letting Hungary keep territories
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No, I'm the one who read it wrong. Somehow I completely missed the second to last sentence of the first paragraph, which, as you say, states in no uncertain terms (and I'm writing this at a time I would normally be asleep, so you know that statement's easy to understand) that the report in question recommends an immediate return to Hungary's Trianon borders with Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. I dunno, I guess I just got so caught up in speculation that I didn't actually read the whole thing. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Neoteros

Neoteros

James the AH Fan said:
I think I found something that could be related to Napoleon's united Germany:
View attachment 593944
Source: Britannica
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von Dalberg seems to have been quite the individual: he was as much of a pan-German patriot as he was a literate and philosopher (he knew several prominent men of culture in person), so if he'd somehow been able to do what Joachim Murat couldn't do and keep the Rhineland for himself after the Restoration, he might've been more than willing to accept a "crown from the gutter", unlike his Prussian equivalent - who, in this scenario, would be much weaker, since Prussia wouldn't have annexed the whole area.
 
OxSpace

OxSpace

Chris S said:
Okay, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't see anything in the quoted image to even remotely suggest the British were considering letting Hungary keep territories acquired from Slovakia and Yugoslavia.

The quoted image says the Foreign Office (that is the British foreign office) did up a paper which explicitly is quoted as saying that as a defeated enemy state Hungary has no special considerations in regards to her future frontier particularly with regards to the British allies of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, but that this does not necessarily hold with regards to Romania as another defeated enemy state. It later states that the British Foreign Office's paper on the subject proposed the immediate return to Trianon borders for Hungary in relation to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia with the allusion that this would be disabuse the Hungarians of even the faintest ideas that special consideration would be given to revision of the Trianon frontiers.

The only possible non-Trianon boundaries envisioned are clearly only with Romania.
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Directly after the sentence you're quoting mentions that "as regards Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, . . . hope that sympathetic considerations will be given to some revisions of the Trianon frontiers." Ofc, who knows how "sympathetic" Yugo and CS is going to be to a nation who annexed their territories but I was simply speculating that these two government in exiles wouldn't have as much influence as Britain on the peace table, so I could imagine that Britain forces their hand to revise their borders to prevent future conflict.
 

FancyHat

OxSpace said:
Directly after the sentence you're quoting mentions that "as regards Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, . . . hope that sympathetic considerations will be given to some revisions of the Trianon frontiers." Ofc, who knows how "sympathetic" Yugo and CS is going to be to a nation who annexed their territories but I was simply speculating that these two government in exiles wouldn't have as much influence as Britain on the peace table, so I could imagine that Britain forces their hand to revise their borders to prevent future conflict.
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The thing is that Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia were British allies, whereas Hungary wasn't and had illegally annexed large parts of those allies' territory. The Hungarian people certainly hoped that Trianon would be revised, but the only manner in which Britain could countenance that happening, the report argues, is with respect to Romania.

I think Britain still considered the USSR to be an ally of convenience at best, is the thing (the percentages agreement doesn't look like something that friends would do), so this seems more like the UK trying to figure out a way to get as much of southeast Europe sympathetic to them as possible.
 
OxSpace

OxSpace

FancyHat said:
The thing is that Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia were British allies, whereas Hungary wasn't and had illegally annexed large parts of those allies' territory. The Hungarian people certainly hoped that Trianon would be revised, but the only manner in which Britain could countenance that happening, the report argues, is with respect to Romania.

I think Britain still considered the USSR to be an ally of convenience at best, is the thing (the percentages agreement doesn't look like something that friends would do), so this seems more like the UK trying to figure out a way to get as much of southeast Europe sympathetic to them as possible.
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It wasn't just the Hungarians who wished for a revised Trianon, Britain was aware that Trianon was a mistake. Its also worth noting that Britain essentially blind sided CS throughout the entire war, giving them up to the Soviets.

The passage below also has a bit of interpretation to this. "...the Czechoslovak Government would perhaps be ready, of its own will, to condede certain frontier recitifications in favour of Hungary..."
I find the bolded part to be interesting in that it feels like Britain was simply waiting and hoping for the CS government to concede without their intervention.
1603645892863.png
 

xmoose

OxSpace said:
The passage below also has a bit of interpretation to this. "...the Czechoslovak Government would perhaps be ready, of its own will, to condede certain frontier recitifications in favour of Hungary..."
I find the bolded part to be interesting in that it feels like Britain was simply waiting and hoping for the CS government to concede without their intervention.
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Well, before the war, cs president Masaryk (and I think his succesor, Edvard Benes, too) was considering some territorial concession to Hungary. But that was before Munchen, Vienna arbitrage and war...
 

Chris S

OxSpace said:
Directly after the sentence you're quoting mentions that "as regards Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, . . . hope that sympathetic considerations will be given to some revisions of the Trianon frontiers."
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Yes, because the sentence is referring to the Foreign Office document stating that the Hungarians are hoping that sympathetic considerations will be given (which is to be expected of course!). It is not the Foreign Office hoping that sympathetic consideration will be given to the revision of Trianon frontiers. The full sentence states that the Foreign Office's position as outlined in the document is that there should be a return to Trianon frontiers immediately precisely because the Hungarians hoped for revisions. Basically they are saying that they advocate returning to the Trianon borders right away so that the Hungarians won't think that there is any possibility of revisions to the borders.
 
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Chris S

OxSpace said:
It wasn't just the Hungarians who wished for a revised Trianon, Britain was aware that Trianon was a mistake. Its also worth noting that Britain essentially blind sided CS throughout the entire war, giving them up to the Soviets.

The passage below also has a bit of interpretation to this. "...the Czechoslovak Government would perhaps be ready, of its own will, to condede certain frontier recitifications in favour of Hungary..."
I find the bolded part to be interesting in that it feels like Britain was simply waiting and hoping for the CS government to concede without their intervention.
View attachment 594011
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I don't think this means what you think it means.

Basically it says 3 things:

1. the British were aware that even the anti-German forces in Hungary were opposed to the return to Trianon. Thus even though it was their Foreign Office's position to return to those borders, it would be a mistake at the time to publicly announce this ----> the implication being that this might turn the anti-German Hungarian forces into anti-Allied Hungarian forces.

2. HMG was considering the possibility that the Czechoslovak government might be willing to do border rectifications. This is a neutral statement. It doesn't advocate for or against border rectifications but merely notes that the British government was trying to look at all possible post-war outcomes by other actors.

3. The last bit in the quoted image (which is left unfinished) would seem to suggest that the general policy is that the German satellites should restore to Allied countries territories they occupied generally. The rest of the quote would be needed to be sure.
 
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athgtq16129

James the AH Fan said:
A proposal for an even greater Reichskommissariat Turkestan, from Oleg Valentinovich Romanko's book "Muslim Legions in the Second World War"
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Asking again, did Germany intend to colonize and then annex Reichskomissariat Turkestan in the long-term, or make it a satellite state? I assumed that they would opt for the latter, as much as how they would most likely allow some countries in the Caucasus to become semi-independent to act as buffer states against Turkey.
 
GauchoBadger

GauchoBadger

Comte de Dordogne said:
I don't know if it really fits into this category and I don't know if it has been done before, but it could be interesting to do the Jesuit missions in Paraguay. The link above leads to a map that I have not been able to put on the site.
I wonder if anyone would be interested in doing it in Worlda format.
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Uh, the Guairá and Chiquitos mission complexes are mistakenly swapped.
Very interesting, however. Really puts in perspective the scope of these missionary entities, and also disproves the possible notion that these areas were too wild to sustain an advanced society...
 

xsampa

Banned
Comte de Dordogne said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/829e6x

I don't know if it really fits into this category and I don't know if it has been done before, but it could be interesting to do the Jesuit missions in Paraguay. The link above leads to a map that I have not been able to put on the site.
I wonder if anyone would be interested in doing it in Worlda format.
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An independent Jesuit state including Paraguay, Uruguay and Rio De Sul
 
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