If World War 2 doesn't happen, how long would Japan have held onto Korea and Taiwan?

It wouldn't be 33% of the total population, no revolution takes every single person in the country, especially on the 1960s with the asian economies booming
Even if only 10% of that 33% were involved in that active rebellion (a figure that is absurdly optimistic), it would require Japan to place security forces equivalent to about 3-5% of the entire Japanese population, which would translate to about 5-7% of Japan's entire GDP being expended annually on Korean security (on top of whatever average law and order costs for are for 40-60+ million people).

Japan would collapse economically (it can either choose to hold onto the Korean Peninsula, or modernize and invest in its economy).
 
I think everyone bringing up the Irish Troubles and African colonies is missing an important point differentiating those situations from Koreas, namely the role of other powers. Korea is a small nation when compared to its neighbours - namely China and Russia. Unless both of those powers are somehow neutralised as strategic powers, they're going to be trying to exert influence over Korea. Not too many nations are keen on breaking free of one overlord only to be dominated by another, so as long as Japan is offering a better deal than China or Russia, it is entirely possible that the Koreans would prefer the status quo over the Chinese or Russians coming in. With a POD in the late 1920s, Japan certainly can go in the direction of "making peoples lives better" if they choose to do so (especially if characters like Stalin or Mao are the alternatives!).
Ireland and Africa on the other hand are nowhere near the playgrounds of the great powers - if they break free, no-one else is going to be around to tell them what to do. Korea sits right in the middle of three great powers who seek influence in Asia, and real close to some very important trade routes - they're always going to be under the influence of someone else to at least some degree (1930 is too late to make Korea a great power in its own right).

- BNC
Communism would look a lot more attractive than being second class citizens to a mess of Japanese colonists (see OTL Vietnamese).
 
Even if only 10% of that 33% were involved in that active rebellion (a figure that is absurdly optimistic), it would require Japan to place security forces equivalent to about 3-5% of the entire Japanese population, which would translate to about 5-7% of Japan's entire GDP being expended annually on Korean security (on top of whatever average law and order costs for are for 40-60+ million people).

Japan would collapse economically (it can either choose to hold onto the Korean Peninsula, or modernize and invest in its economy).

Well, at this point this went so long that I don't feel like continuing, but I gonna make the point that even if some kind of collapse happens, it most likely happens way after 1960, Portugal lasted until 1974 under way worse positions and still was growing economically

Maybe you are aiming to something like the late 1980s when the japanese bubble bursted
 
Well, at this point this went so long that I don't feel like continuing, but I gonna make the point that even if some kind of collapse happens, it most likely happens way after 1960, Portugal lasted until 1974 under way worse positions and still was growing economically

Maybe you are aiming to something like the late 1980s when the japanese bubble bursted

I know that argument is getting repetitive, so I will mention something else. IRL in Indonesia, which had conquered Timor Leste, also gave Timor Leste independence after ts own economic crisis in 1997. In @Shevek23's scenario we could say increased American and their allies sanctioning Japan as they no longer need it to preserve Korea from Soviet influence?
 
Kurds are about 20% of the population of Turkey. The Kurds have their own identity separate from Turks and there is a Kurdish separatist movement. But Turkish Kurdistan seems unlikely to successfully secede in the near future. If Ankara can hold on to the Kurdish lands, why can't Tokyo hold on to Korea?
 
Kurds are about 20% of the population of Turkey. The Kurds have their own identity separate from Turks and there is a Kurdish separatist movement. But Turkish Kurdistan seems unlikely to successfully secede in the near future. If Ankara can hold on to the Kurdish lands, why can't Tokyo hold on to Korea?

Turkey is part of NATO which is willing to provide for its defence but Japan is also geographically separated from Korea, and the lack of two superpowers, China and the USSR, who would be willing to provide to the Korean independence movement unlike Kurdistan which just has Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan which don't have as much capacity to determine events in Turkey.
 
Turkey is part of NATO which is willing to provide for its defence but Japan is also geographically separated from Korea, and the lack of two superpowers, China and the USSR, who would be willing to provide to the Korean independence movement unlike Kurdistan which just has Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan which don't have as much capacity to determine events in Turkey.
Also Kurds make up less of a percentage of the population and are more integrated into Turkey compared to Koreans in a surviving Japanese empire.
 
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I avoided speculation on the fate of Korea in my own offered scenarios. I believe the Koreans will be much disgruntled, but it is hard to judge how well the Japanese can coopt enough of them, even if only Stockholm Syndrome style, to retain a grip despite this resentment. Also, it is possible that the semi-liberal facade alliance with the British, or the form of authoritarianism combined with egalitarian rhetoric a Soviet alliance might foster in Tokyo, might give the Japanese overlord options in face-saving autonomy, even restoration of the old Korean royal dynasty or under Soviet example, a paper autonomy for a Korean People's Republic that in fact answers to Tokyo and its Zaibatsu corporate cartels at every turn--but wears the mask of Korean nominal leadership.

Another thing I fudged was what the hell happens in China if the Japanese aren't pressuring them. In my perception, the KMT was inherently weak, particularly under Chiang Kai-Shek's kleptocratic leadership making the regime a quarrelsome oligarchy of mutually jealous rich vested interests with damn little traction in the working classes and peasantry. OTL the Soviets gave the Chinese Communists a lot of aid, but a lot of that was to fight the Japanese. Without any of that aid, even with the Soviets aiding Chiang, it seems a push to me how much traction Mao can get. Arguably he is doomed, but even if the KMT, with Soviet and Japanese connivance in Chiang's extermination campaign, can wipe out the Maoist insurgency to the last man and woman, that just leaves a weak power vacuum that warlords can aspire to break loose in--Chiang has to herd these warlord cats into a pretence of Chinese unity. There is little funds or leadership left over for actual modernization, and meanwhile Chinese population continues to balloon. Something will give somewhere.

One reason I didn't tread on that territory was that it seems most likely to me at some point the reduced but still strong militarist factions in Tokyo see opportunities too good to resist, foreign allies be damned, in Manchuria and further afield, and there we are, OP conditions violated and Japan perhaps back on the same course as OTL.

So, after the Europe-only WWII, will Stalin hunkering down expel the Japanese, or seek to coopt them more deeply, perhaps orchestrating a Red revolution? Stalin and subsequent Kremlin leaders were actually very bad at that, preferring Communists who were loyal to revolutionaries with a free hand and fingers on the pulse of their actual nation. Mao, Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro prevailed despite Soviet "help" never because of it. Perhaps Stalin will back a coup that is quite frankly at odds with Soviet notions of proper Bolshevism. As noted, sociologically speaking, with proper leftist parties repressed, the closest thing that common workers and peasants had to political advocacy on their behalf was the essentially fascist route via the gung ho Army officers. Organizing them as Protectors of the Emperor, a sort of collective Shogunate, and refusing to institute Marxist class struggle language and instead making Japan a fascist arm with an ideology of partnership with the great Russian proletariat but with Japan remaining under Emperor and a essentially corporate order (but where the Zaibatsu can be overridden, or claim to have been overridden, by the Red officers in deep partnership with their handlers in Moscow.

Writing that it seems pretty improbable though; the powers that be in Japan would presumably rear up in resistance; in the context of a developing Cold War rift (it stays Cold for the same reasons as OTL; through most of the '50s the USA could declare war on the USSR without much risk of damage to the USA, but no one in the West wanted Europe turned into a charnel house yet again, and Stalin was always The Great Procrastinator) the "free" imperialists of Japan would turn to western support which the USA would grant, no questions asked, on the "they're sons of bitches but they're our sons of bitches" model applied so freely by the "Free World" leaders in the Third World in general.

I offered three scenarios in all of which Japan winds up allied to the Soviets in WWII, and explored possible ongoing relations with Japan a free actor; dismissing the possibility of post WWII conquest, even by Army officer subversion, of Japan as a whole, various forms of Soviet betrayal also apply. The Red Army will be quite strong in the postwar period and belated seizure of Korea, any White Russian regime under Japanese protection and alliance on the Pacific Coast, and conquest of or cooptation of China do seem more possible. Suppose that with the experience of a cordial relationship with Imperial Japan under their belts, the Soviets can coopt Chiang Kai-Shek, offering him a deal whereby they aid him in bringing the warlords to heel and in suppressing Chinese Communism, securing the KMT as permanent overlords of China, and give the RoC under Chiang industrial development aid? Could this work for Stalin? I considered them offering him the title of Emperor of China but that would be an unnecessary dissonance both with Leninism and KMT ideology I believe. President-Generalissmo For Life of the Republic of China is probably plenty good enough for Chiang! Stalin wants all Japan too but his schemes for that misfire, predictably, and he settles for overwhelming Korea and any defiant White rump state Japan has been protecting, and figures Japan with just Pacific islands including Taiwan is a weak opponent to be dealt with later. So Japan suddenly facing hostile Soviet power across the straits and lack of her long time access to northern resources turns to the victorious USA for help, which is granted. In a fun reversal, Chiang asserts the RoC claim to Taiwan but the Western powers back Japan and it holds as Japanese territory, now more Nipponified and loyal and integrated than ever. Cold War containment is now about building up Japan as an industrialized bastion much as OTL, but without South Korea--or conceivably pro-Japanese regime Koreans with IJA in retreat stand and hold the south more or less as OTL, with US and possibly other Western ally forces coming in to reinforce the front and an eventual cease fire and truce dividing Korea--but the South would remain Japanese, though Western liberal suasion might establish it as an autonomous region with Yankee forces being the major line of defense, as OTL.

The scenario should there have been a Japanese-protected White rump state that Stalin gobbles up forcefully post-war, or tries and fails to if enough Western allied resistance can reinforce the Japanese and domestic resistance there, offers some weird alternatives too. If a portion or all of it holds, repelling the Soviet takeover attempt (such resistance most likely to succeed if Stalin limits his stroke to a purported domestic pro-Bolshevik rising which might well implode before the Red Army can pour in to "defend" it) then along with a possible surviving South Korea under Japan, or instead of it, we have a Russian dissident state in Western as well as Japanese alliance, still impeding Soviet access to the Pacific and thus a huge Cold War hot spot. We'd expect it to be massively armed, unless perhaps Stalin negotiates a cease fire with treaty limits, in which case it is protected by permitted US and/or Japanese allied force in limited numbers forming a tripwire defense--the Red Army could walk over it any time but not without triggering WWIII. Considering that the USSR and USA face each other directly across the Bering strait another such front seems possible.

But what if the Reds manage to break in and take over fast enough, but not so fast that large numbers of the White regime there can't escape Soviet "justice" and make it to Japan for refuge? I think they would not stay in Japan--some might, because presumably ties have opened up between Japanese and White Russians since 1920, but most, having had their own homeland that is not Japanese, might emigrate elsewhere. A logical destination for them would be the US Territory of Alaska; in Cold War context they'd be made as welcome as Cuban refugees from Castro were OTL decades later, or Southeast Asians from Vietnam and Laos were. Unlike the Southeast Asian "boat people" if the Russian Whites descend on Alaska en masse they can quickly become the dominant ethnicity and bring numbers to catapult Alaska into US statehood, assuming the immigrant refugees accept US citizenship anyway, as I suspect they would. (In fact, if there were a post Russian Civil War White rump state on the northwest Pacific coast, I'd think considerable numbers of them would have previously emigrated to Alaska and other US destinations, so the arrival of huge numbers of them might find already re-Russified communities to settle in). Perhaps early Alaska statehood with a somewhat problematic (but welcomed because of their firm anti-Communist credentials) Russian-dominant society will promote offsetting this ethnic lopsidedness with accepting Puerto Rico statehood. Indeed a problem with PR statehood is that not all Puerto Ricans want it, some prefer independence, but in a CW context it might seem expedient to settle the matter and quash that once and for all by regularizing PR as a state; its Spanish speaking Catholic population not so strange offset by Orthodox Russians in Alaska, as well as, to round it out, accepting Hawaii at the same time. Perhaps in this scenario Hawaii has annexed to it all US held Pacific Islands--not the UN Trust Territories deeded to us by conquest from Japan, but then again in this ATL those are still Japanese, but Guam, Samoa and other islands here and there, all federated into Hawaii which might have a unique federal state constitution giving the non-Hawaiian parts autonomy. This might bump Greater Hawaii, or we might say the State of Pacifica which HI is the largest part of, into a three-Representative bracket every now and then. That just leaves the Virgin Islands and District of Columbia as territorial anomalies in an otherwise all-statehood USA. Perhaps we might make a clean sweep by biting the bullet of one really tiny state (VI, and this might encourage splitting Pacifica back up into Guam plus any other vaguely regional islands, Samoa and any other small Polynesian islands, and Hawaii itself) and finally reinterpreting the Constitutional grant of Federal District territory to Congressional control to mean strictly actual Federal buildings and parks, plus maybe some tracts of residence reserved for members of Congress and some Federal workers who opt for it, and either reverting the bulk of DC land back to Maryland or establishing it as a city-State with special obligations to cooperate with Congress in their control of the Federal buildings. Then absolutely everyone under the US flag would have equal rights to Congressional and Presidential electoral representation. I am of course assuming that the Philippines are let go, and that special provision for residents of the Panama Canal zone to vote as expatriates from whatever state they came from would be provided as well.

I meant to consider even earlier PODs, perhaps involving the Empire of Japan and of China, or the early RoC, coming to cordial terms of mutual support and development late in the 19th or early in the 20th century, but honestly that seems highly improbable. Or better performance by Japan in the Russo-Japanese war--they decimated the Black Fleet on the high seas but it was something of a stalemate on land OTL--gives them a foothold in OTL Russian territory even before the Great War--the Russians couldn't re-dispute it with Britain allied to both Japan and Russia during the Great War and the Russian Civil War period would keep these Japanese territories out of either side's hands, though per OTL the Imperial Japanese would surely aid the Whites and could not be induced to withdraw from their pre-war winnings, which they might expand with White help during the RCW.

In all of this I have strived to comply with the rather stringent condition of Manchuria and the rest of China (beyond pre-Great War and Great War won concessions, such as Shandong, anyway) be left alone, which I figured could only happen either if the Japanese controlled other resource areas, or enjoyed strong trade relations with another Great power such as the Commonwealth-Empire. Obviously post-WWII, which is a given if Hitler is not butterflied out of power (and IMHO, not going to happen if he is kept from power; other German strongmen might desire some conquests but I doubt they could orchestrate the conditions enabling Hitler to make them OTL; Stalin IMHO is the Great Procrastinator many assume would start European WWII if Hitler doesn't, but I believe he would sit there contained playing Hamlet, never giving up on building a big strong Red Army that could start WWII, but never actually sending that army into battle for deep reasons I won't elaborate here) I am letting the dominoes start falling freely, but again assume as given that the Soviet-Western confrontation without open large scale war (except civil war possibilities in China and the sudden seizure of Far East territory from Japan) as OTL Cold War to exist in modified but basically identical form.

Bottom line re Korea--Korean nationalism puts them into play, provided some great power desires to alienate them from Japan, otherwise they stay Japanese ruled, at least until the Soviet breakup, which I am not certain must happen. Removing the Soviet bugbear might position Korea for gaining independence from a quite liberalized Japan by the 1990s.
 
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If World War 2 doesn't happen, how long would Japan have held onto Korea and Taiwan?
As it had invaded and occupied Manchuria and much of China it might have conquered the whole of China if it had not suffered defeat by overextending itself against the US & British Empire.
 

MikeDwight

Banned
Lets start with an expressed feeling of superiority to Korea. First of all. how long would they hold Korea? Or the world? they already had 3 wars to attain rights over Korea specifically with many written agreements. Maybe they are the starting nazis, with "living space" required. So, when they do that it won't be "Korea" that they are holding. Not at all. There were tables that said 3 million immigrants in 12 million I thought near World War 2 in Korea. The entire British Empire of the whole world is 500,000 officers the whole time. That's Japanese space inside Korea, as you said owning most land. The Nazis wanted to kick all the Polish out of Poland by comparison.

The assassin of the Governor General Ahn Geun is called a Pan-Asianist . I'm really tired of usages of Nationalist. It can go as far as making up countries because they're too good for everybody, or a superior Nation, that's a Nationalist. In order to be a Nationalist, Ahn Geun must think that Korea is better than Japan and they shouldn't associate...?
 
Well, at this point this went so long that I don't feel like continuing, but I gonna make the point that even if some kind of collapse happens, it most likely happens way after 1960, Portugal lasted until 1974 under way worse positions and still was growing economically

Maybe you are aiming to something like the late 1980s when the japanese bubble bursted

Portugal benefited from playing different colonial populations against each other, and from an alliance of convenience with Rhodesia and South Africa. Japan lacks the ability to execute the first strategy, and its diplomatic situation makes the second one infeasible. Honestly, the Portuguese also benefited from not seeming like a threat to their neighbors, whereas Japan would never earn Chinese trust, and would be poorly inclined towards alignment with the Soviets as well. Just blithely assuming that adapting Portuguese policy would make the regime exactly as stable as Salazar's really doesn't follow.

As it had invaded and occupied Manchuria and much of China it might have conquered the whole of China if it had not suffered defeat by overextending itself against the US & British Empire.

That's quite the oversimplification of how well the war in China was going. The Japanese controlled the coast and a lot of the major cities, but they weren't able to extend actual influence much farther than the existing rail lines, and the countryside was teeming with guerillas pretty much everywhere. By 1941, they'd pretty much peaked in terms of strategic success.

That's not even touching the issue that they went to war against the US and the British Empire because those two were trying to get them to stop invading China. That in turn means that they could likely only avoid such a war by giving up on the China project.
 
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Portugal benefited from playing different colonial populations against each other, and from an alliance of convenience with Rhodesia and South Africa. Japan lacks the ability to execute the first strategy, and its diplomatic situation makes the second one infeasible. Honestly, the Portuguese also benefited from not seeming like a threat to their neighbors, whereas Japan would never earn Chinese trust, and would be poorly inclined towards alignment with the Soviets as well. Just blithely assuming that adapting Portuguese policy would make the regime exactly as stable as Salazar's really doesn't follow.



That's quite the oversimplification of how well the war in China was going. The Japanese controlled the coast and a lot of the major cities, but they weren't able to extend actual influence much farther than the existing rail lines, and the countryside was teeming with guerillas pretty much everywhere. By 1941, they'd pretty much peaked in terms of strategic success.

That's not even touching the issue that they went to war against the US and the British Empire because those two were trying to get them to stop invading China. That in turn means that they could likely only avoid such a war by giving up on the China project.

The first line "different colonial populations against each other" contrasts with Korea which has an extensive history of independence, identity, etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level whereas the Angolans which consisted of many groups which fought against each other in addition to against Portugal.
 
Korea has its own cultural identity. If ww2 did not happen, the decolonization tide in 1960s onwards that happened in Vietnam and Africa would sweep Japan away. Communism and Capitalism were still the driving forces of international politics.

On another note, Japan would rather secure at least the southern half of the Sakhalin island and the whole Kuril Islands chain. For security reasons for both USSR and Japan, maybe the Sakhalin island could be traded so the USSR would own the northern half of the Kurils and Japan the southern plus the whole Sakhalin. Northern part of the island are tundra; fishing, oil and gas mining rights would have yet to be discussed so USSR did not lose a lot in terms of geopolitics -- the Kurils not the Sakhalin guard the waterway into and out of the Sea of Ohktosk. The prestige of the USSR could be very important too.
 
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Taiwan's elite was substantially assimilated into the Empire, there was no national consciousness there. Plus the alternative was China, which was a mess. So Japanese rule could remain for a long time or indefinitely.

Given that the Japanese government did not do so until the late stage of WWII for the sake of attract war support, some sort of POD is needed for this TL:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Taiwan/Taiwan-as-part-of-the-Japanese-empire

On the other hand, Japan ruled Taiwan strictly, using harsh punishment to enforce the law. Tokyo, initially at least, showed no interest in making Taiwan a democracy. Moreover, in governing Taiwan, Japan experienced a dilemma over whether to make the colony part of Japan or to allow it to be administratively separate and to some degree self-governing. Ultimately, Tokyo resisted assimilating Taiwan, although it did force the population there to learn Japanese and absorb Japanese culture. That strategy had advantages for the people of Taiwan, as it gained for them access to science and technology, but such advantages came at the cost of suppressing local culture and the Chinese language.
 
Kurds are about 20% of the population of Turkey. The Kurds have their own identity separate from Turks and there is a Kurdish separatist movement. But Turkish Kurdistan seems unlikely to successfully secede in the near future. If Ankara can hold on to the Kurdish lands, why can't Tokyo hold on to Korea?
  1. There has never been a sovereign "Kurdistan". There was a sovereign Korea for centuries.
  2. Kurds were subjects of Ottoman Turkey for about 500 years (and of Persia). Koreans were never subjects of Japan till1910.
  3. Kurds were one of many ethnic minorities in a polyglot empire, where minorities (Albanians, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds) often rose to very high rank. Koreans were subjects of culturally uniform Japan, where no non-Japanese ever rose high.
  4. Most of "Kurdistan" is ethnically mixed. All of Korea is 100% Korean.
  5. There is no geographical line separating "Kurdistan" from Turkey. Korea is separated from Japan by 200 km of ocean.
  6. Kurds were divided between Persia and Turkey before WW I, and afterward between Iraq and Syria as well. All Koreans were in Korea.
 
There are all good points. Japan was late to the colonization game, like before the POD the UK already had given varying degrees of independence to Ireland, South Africa, Egypt, Iraq, Canada etc.
 
  1. There has never been a sovereign "Kurdistan". There was a sovereign Korea for centuries.
  2. Kurds were subjects of Ottoman Turkey for about 500 years (and of Persia). Koreans were never subjects of Japan till1910.
  3. Kurds were one of many ethnic minorities in a polyglot empire, where minorities (Albanians, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds) often rose to very high rank. Koreans were subjects of culturally uniform Japan, where no non-Japanese ever rose high.
  4. Most of "Kurdistan" is ethnically mixed. All of Korea is 100% Korean.
  5. There is no geographical line separating "Kurdistan" from Turkey. Korea is separated from Japan by 200 km of ocean.
  6. Kurds were divided between Persia and Turkey before WW I, and afterward between Iraq and Syria as well. All Koreans were in Korea.
These are good points, but I'd like to add one thing. With no WWII, Japan probably doesn't see the rapid economic growth it did post-war IOTL, no economic boom probably means the birthrates don't collapse nearly as soon, so Japan may very well be able to flood Korea with millions of Japanese. Obviously not becoming the majority, but becoming a very sizable group making it easier for Japan to control the peninsula. The same thing probably happens in Taiwan, only the Japanese population might overtake the Chinese population there due to its smaller size.
 
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