This can be seen as the 'fault' of 100 years between the last general war (the Napoleonic War) and the next (The Great War), during this period while there were conflict it was limited in time and loss and while lesson were learned and applied, this period seen the institutional entrenchment of a at least three generations of staff officers that hardly have seen their troops in action directly and instead have done a lot of studies on the theory of war and plan, lot of exercise with great unit but hardly have lead men in direct combat and frankly not only they don't have the slightest idea of how the men live and what they really face day by day but also see them with the same distance that the Board of directors of a multinational see their employee.
Let Them Pass
- Thread starter Geon
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This can be seen as the 'fault' of 100 years between the last general war (the Napoleonic War) and the next (The Great War), during this period while there were conflict it was limited in time and loss and while lesson were learned and applied, this period seen the institutional entrenchment of a at least three generations of staff officers that hardly have seen their troops in action directly and instead have done a lot of studies on the theory of war and plan, lot of exercise with great unit but hardly have lead men in direct combat and frankly not only they don't have the slightest idea of how the men live and what they really face day by day but also see them with the same distance that the Board of directors of a multinational see their employee.
marathag
Banned
'Let the last man on the Right brush the Channel with his sleeve' turned into a more than one guy, but I think the ATL is closer to that, than what Moltke the Lesser did OTL.
Those plans were for the German main body to be at Liege on D+12, Brussels on D+19, and the French Frontier on D+22, St.Quentin on D+31
Then Paris.
OTL had no major French units north of Hirson on the border of Belgium, just east of St.Quentin.
Here, its open with little delay. Germans are more than a week ahead
No problem, though only possible if the Germans actually manage the "home by Christmas" intent of OTL. Going fast does not mean that fortified cities can fall in a day though. Maubeuge has a ring of 12 fortresses and took a 2 week siege OTL. Sure, the French will have had less time, so there might be less infantry guarding the interals between the forts, but it will still take at least a week of fighting and bombarding with siege mortars. Same with Dunkirk, only 3 forts, but with inundations of the low-lying polders between them, so again a multi-day effort at least.
With the forces that in OTL were guarding the Belgian army in Antwerp, plus the Belgian army itself, Germany essentially has access to a (weak) extra field army to guard its flank. Add the 1-2 week advantage over OTL and things look great, but attacking Dunkirk this early removes part of that advantage IMO.
marathag
Banned
Without the need to reduce the Belgian Fortresses, the far more mobile Skoda Mortars will be available, and probably able to settle the issue before the larger Krupps are even in place to fire a single round.
Yes but it's not as though the French forces holed up in these fortresses are going to come out and attack the Germans. All the Germans have to do is cut them off, is there any need to rush to make them fall? They can be gradually reduced one at a time, using artillery rather than infantry to do the attacking, minimising German casualties.. Rather like what happened to German forces bottled up in French ports in WW2 after D-Day.
Eh, we shouldn't forget that not all fortresses are equal, Belgium cheaped out and used low-quality concrete and the fortresses were only meant to resist 28cm siege artillery. The French used thicker and higher-quality concrete, at least at Verdun, where the 42cm mortars did not manage to obliterate the fortresses, though they did succeed at Maubeuge.
True, but that does require screening forces, just like against Antwerp in OTL. More importantly, as of now it is canon TTL that the Germans waltzed in and took both Maubeuge and Dunkirk in a single day with little or no fighting. With Lille f.e. this actually works on these dates, as the 20 (!) fortresses weren't updated and the city was declassed as fortress in 1910, and even declared an open city on 1 August 1914. (link in French) For the first 6 weeks of the war the Germans could have walked right in and taken the city with a single regiment, which they didn't as they were aiming at Paris. By the time they raced for the sea, the French had changed their mind about leaving Lille undefended. Maubeuge however, kept its garrison and Dunkirk is very easy to defend with inundations, a process that the French will likely start the minute they declare war on Belgium.
Another point is that Antwerp wasn't really on the road to Paris. Neither is Dunkirk, but Maubeuge is, and leaving it in French hands means a 20-30 km gap in the local rail line.
marathag
Banned
But the Boulogne works, near Dunkirk and other channel emplacements were a generation older, post 1870, and the rest, Vauban era and then really old pre 15thC works that the Tudors would have encountered.
Geon
Donor
I haven't made any decisions yet. There's another thread already dealing with that subject. And I hate to tread on someone else's material. A lot will depend if the war in the west will be a long or a short one.
Chapter 9: Fall of the Channel Ports
Geon
Donor
Chapter 9: Fall of the Channel Ports
How did the channel ports of Calais Lille, and Dunkirk fall so quickly into German hands?
Several reasons may be cited.
First, was the fact that many of these fortresses were built in the 19th century or earlier and some were built to defend against an English attack by sea and not a German invasion. Further the forts were built with 19th century artillery in mind and not the massive guns the Germans were able to bring up as they advanced.
Secondly, the French planners had not considered the possibility of a Belgium capitulating to Germany. While garrisons manned these forts, these garrisons were not large enough to hold back a large German attack force. Further, the speed of the German advance through Belgium with the help of the Belgian railway system meant the Germans were not exhausted and were more then combat ready when they arrived at Dunkirk and Calais.
Thirdly, referring again to the French fortresses surrounding the two major channel ports, the Germans had access to modern artillery which proved very effective in reducing the older more vulnerable French forts. The German field artillery included the great Krupp howitzers and mortars designed specifically to reduce fortifications. As a result, a single show of force at Dunkirk was the motivation for Calais and Lille to declare themselves “open cities”.
The “Dunkirk Demonstration” as it came to be called came about when the commanders of the garrison in Dunkirk refused to surrender the city. The German division proceeded to bring up its heavy artillery and launched a one-hour bombardment of the hapless garrison. By the end of the bombardment the garrison had suffered 150 dead, and 78 wounded. In addition, there had been civilian casualties totaling 70 (32 dead and 38 wounded). The commanders on pressure from the mayor of the city reluctantly surrendered.
The strategy behind the taking of the Channel points by a detachment of Von Kluck’s 1st army meant von Kluck didn’t have to worry about an immediate British attack from his rear. By the 10th of August his First Army had brushed its sleeve against the channel and was turning back westward toward Paris. (The European War: The First Days; by Lord Herbert Kitchener, 1920)
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SysyphusOfEphyra
Banned
They already calling it World War 1 by 1920? This a typo or they really had 2 World Wars in 6 years?
Derek Pullem
Donor
If the Entente can't hold them at the Somme then Paris will be attacked. Whether it is taken is another matter.
Churchills Operation Gravellines looks even more foolish now.
IOTL the British landed at Le Havre but switched to St Nazaire when the German advance threatened Paris. Here they may never deploy to Le Havre but if they don't they won't stop the Germans.
Churchills Operation Gravellines looks even more foolish now.
IOTL the British landed at Le Havre but switched to St Nazaire when the German advance threatened Paris. Here they may never deploy to Le Havre but if they don't they won't stop the Germans.
Riain
Banned
This is important, not only are the British late they can't make some of the short Channel crossings they made IOTL. This will marginalise the British contribution to a substantial degree.
marathag
Banned
I'm pretty sure I've come across period stuff that was 'The First World War'
NGRAM to the rescue
Now, not common vs Great War, but was used
Deleted member 94680
According to wiki
The term "first world war" was first used in September 1914 by German biologist and philosopher Ernst Haeckel, who claimed that "there is no doubt that the course and character of the feared 'European War' ... will become the first world war in the full sense of the word" citing a wire service report in The Indianapolis Star on 20 September 1914. In English, the term "First World War" had been used by Charles à Court Repington, as a title for his memoirs (published in 1920); he had noted his discussion on the matter with a Major Johnstone of Harvard University in his diary entry of September 10, 1918.
If you wondering why Calais, Lille, and Dunkirk fall so quickly into German hands?
Next to Belgium help, here geography help the Germans allot
around 1914 far into 1930s were inland area drench with wetland and marshes
in this TL they move along coast line from Belgium
the french army has come from South and then had to past those Marshes
the map is only for geography and show clearly the problem for French
Next to Belgium help, here geography help the Germans allot
around 1914 far into 1930s were inland area drench with wetland and marshes
in this TL they move along coast line from Belgium
the french army has come from South and then had to past those Marshes
the map is only for geography and show clearly the problem for French
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