TL 191 HOI4 Mod Update and Discussion Thread

[Faeelin]

I'm with @Faeelin here, and not just because I thought his take on TL-191 was the best I've ever seen. Leaving aside that the Confederacy IMO needs major reworks (starting with removal of the democratic paths since those are rather unrealistic even compared to TL-191 canon), the basic gameplay functionality of a war intended to take place on at least 2 continents is, I believe, more important to the mod than adding in military coups for the United States of all countries.

It's honestly not super clear why the CSA is in a faction with the Entente, but the Germans and Yanks are not. They both share military secrets, and if the end result is the AI sending millions of men to America, that's a huge departure from canon.

 

[Hexcron]

The CSA is in the Entente and the USA is not in the Central Powers because cooperation between the CSA and the Entente was more widespread (with actual joint military operations in Bermuda and such) and more feasible (with the US and Germany finding it difficult to break through the Atlantic) and to give the US a greater late-game choice of Foreign policy.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again; the CSA is up to our current standards and vision for it, no matter how much you disagree with the democratic paths for it, while the US is severely showing its age and simply isn’t satisfying for us anymore.

Of course the choices we make aren’t always from canon, but we do make sure to be consistent with it, and our judgement is the a coup is plausible with different circumstances while Canadian statehood isn’t. You’re paying an awful amount of attention to a number that won’t top 30 in a canonical game. The coup is basically impossible to trigger without going down one of the paths designed for it. The idea that it’s either this or quicker Germany content shows me frankly that you don’t know a great deal about modding. It isn’t one or the other.

 

[Hexcron]

Canada getting statehood at some point is not contradicted by the text, unless your argument is it is less plausible than a Communist Revolution or Macarthur's coup. Which is a take but, but not supported by the books.

Canada getting statehood isn’t consistent with the circumstances of 1936 Canada. In 1936 it’s quite clear the Canadians aren’t keen on cooperation and the US has not helped on that front. Any discussion of statehood is going to happen well after the end of GWII. The Coup and cliques on the other hand is our own expansion of the situation in the text, which is left vague and open to interpretation, while Canada is hardly ambiguous.

 

[bguy]

the argument surely cannot be "Flora's views about X are in the text, and therefore plausible," because she is the one who discusses Canadian statehood. Perhaps the times have changed? But umm, then surely the chances of an army coup have too?

Wasn’t Flora’s “discussion” of the possibility of Canadian statehood just her needling the Democrat Secretary of State? I would think a discussion between her and her Socialist colleagues is more likely to reflect what she actually believes is possible than a partisan jab designed to call out the Democrats for hypocrisy.

 

[Hexcron]

Wasn’t Flora’s “discussion” of the possibility of Canadian statehood just her needling the Democrat Secretary of State? I would think a discussion between her and her Socialist colleagues is more likely to reflect what she actually believes is possible than a partisan jab designed to call out the Democrats for hypocrisy.

I think so. Even if it was a serious proposal times have changed. Its no longer the upbeat optimism of the '20s. The dreary reality of the permanent occupation has settled in.

 

[Faeelin]

Canada getting statehood isn’t consistent with the circumstances of 1936 Canada. In 1936 it’s quite clear the Canadians aren’t keen on cooperation and the US has not helped on that front. Any discussion of statehood is going to happen well after the end of GWII. The Coup and cliques on the other hand is our own expansion of the situation in the text, which is left vague and open to interpretation, while Canada is hardly ambiguous.

Here's a question. In which 1930s book does anyone mention a USA army coup? Who suggests it as a possibility? Flora needles when you don't like it, but this fanon is... fine?

Obviously, since this is a take on the books, you have a cite for this in the period . . .

 

[Faeelin]

The coup is basically impossible to trigger without going down one of the paths designed for it. The idea that it’s either this or quicker Germany content shows me frankly that you don’t know a great deal about modding. It isn’t one or the other.

Look, you're free to make a teaser for Germany at any point, but the idea that I don't know much about HOI4 modding is very silly. If you don't want a discussion of your mod, why have a thread here? I guess I just have those Old World Blues, and hope that one day, you guys can make a faction that acts as an Enclave for the Rebirth of the US of A. But until then, I will point out when you are ignoring the book's canon (which isfine, if you ow

 

[Faeelin]

The CSA is in the Entente and the USA is not in the Central Powers because cooperation between the CSA and the Entente was more widespread (with actual joint military operations in Bermuda and such) and more feasible (with the US and Germany finding it difficult to break through the Atlantic) and to give the US a greater late-game choice of Foreign policy.

Again, your mod currently has hundreds of thousands of European entente troops in America. That's broken if you are claiming the books are canon. You can say you don't want to follow the books, that's fine! Or you can say you think that's good for balance, or beyond your skill to fix, and blame Paradox, but let's be honest about what's happening.

 

[Worffan101]

The only thing I would add to the USA, tbh, is a hyperrevanchist Remembrance path, to echo how Turtledove was clearly planning for the USA to be the bad guys in *WW2.

 

[Hexcron]

We aren't ignoring the books canon. The potential of a coup isn't mentioned in the books, but most of the general intricacies and power structure of the US Army isn't either. We're expanding on that to create interesting possibilities and mechanics for the player to work with. Again, you're paying far too much attention to a number that reaches 30 at most in a normal game. A coup isn't going to happen under Smith or LaFollette. We are working on fixing up the AI, and that is in fact quite complicated to work with. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinions on the mod, I'm saying you don't seem to understand how development doesn't require us to focus on one single thing.

 

[Hexcron]

Nothing we have contradicts the canon. It may not be sourced from the canon or implied in the canon, but everything fits within it.

 

[Faeelin]

We aren't ignoring the books canon. The potential of a coup isn't mentioned in the books, but most of the general intricacies and power structure of the US Army isn't either. We're expanding on that to create interesting possibilities and mechanics for the player to work with. Again, you're paying far too much attention to a number that reaches 30 at most in a normal game. A coup isn't going to happen under Smith or LaFollette. We are working on fixing up the AI, and that is in fact quite complicated to work with. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinions on the mod, I'm saying you don't seem to understand how development doesn't require us to focus on one single thing.

So first off, you come off as a little condescending here and have repeatedly when you say I don't know much about modding. I'm just going to point out my submod, the Enclave Reborn, has more downloads than your multi-person mod does, let alone compare Old World Blues' numbers to yours.

Second, it is personally boring to me to see another GUI that, per your statement, won't matter most games just because TNO did it. (Let alone the every nation a civil war meme that KR has brought to the community).

Nothing we have contradicts the canon. It may not be sourced from the canon or implied in the canon, but everything fits within it.

Obvious canon departures (I can point to more if you'd like, but these two jump out)

1) The Grand British expeditionary force which lands in the CSA, which nobody ever mentions. Everyone comments on how both sides are fighting more stand alone wars this time around and the mod was released (and still has) the CSA in a faction, which you didn't really address.
2) Texas does not spawn as a US puppet, even though it is called one, which will be annexed in short order, in the text, and Turtledove later confirmed it.

This is even if you pretend the utter silence on the threat of a Macarthur coup means that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.

 

[Hexcron]

So first off, you come off as a little condescending here and have repeatedly when you say I don't know much about modding. I'm just going to point out my submod, the Enclave Reborn, has more downloads than your multi-person mod does, let alone compare Old World Blues' numbers to yours.

Second, it is personally boring to me to see another GUI that, per your statement, won't matter most games just because TNO did it. (Let alone the every nation a civil war meme that KR has brought to the community).




Obvious canon departures (I can point to more if you'd like, but these two jump out)

1) The Grand British expeditionary force which lands in the CSA, which nobody ever mentions. Everyone comments on how both sides are fighting more stand alone wars this time around and the mod was released (and still has) the CSA in a faction, which you didn't really address.
2) Texas does not spawn as a US puppet, even though it is called one, which will be annexed in short order, in the text, and Turtledove later confirmed it.

This is even if you pretend the utter silence on the threat of a Macarthur coup means that is absence of evidence, not evidence of absence.

I apologise for my comments about you not understanding mod development. That was wrong. Texas is being corrected, and the AI is being worked on. MacArthur's coup is not a threat in the canon route, only in more extreme cases. Again, you're overplaying its significance.
Our policy is to not contradict the canon in terms of content. So far we have achieved that as best as we could.

 

[Hexcron]

The GUI itself will matter, but the Coup is unlikely in most instances. The GUI is much more than just the coup, and managing each of the factions is important in how it impacts the Army's performance.

 

[Hexcron]

The CSA Being in the Entente while the US is not in the Central powers represents the canonical closer level of cooperation between them and the European Entente both before and during the war than that between the US and Germany.

 

[Faeelin]

The CSA Being in the Entente while the US is not in the Central powers represents the canonical closer level of cooperation between them and the European Entente both before and during the war than that between the US and Germany.

Let's game this out. What is the evidence that they are closer:

1) Joint operations against American Bermuda/Bahama (maybe), and they both are in the battle for the Atlantic.

2) They share technology.

Except:

1) Both the Americans and Germans support the Irish.

2) So do the Yanks and Germans.

You could easily put nations in a research pact without putting them in a faction, but if the consequence of a faction is huge expeditionary forces traveling between countries... that's not present in the books at all. There's a reason that China and the USSR aren't members of the Allied faction in the base game.

 

[Hexcron]

Let's game this out. What is the evidence that they are closer:

1) Joint operations against American Bermuda/Bahama (maybe), and they both are in the battle for the Atlantic.

2) They share technology.

Except:

1) Both the Americans and Germans support the Irish.

2) So do the Yanks and Germans.

You could easily put nations in a research pact without putting them in a faction, but if the consequence of a faction is huge expeditionary forces traveling between countries... that's not present in the books at all.

The Germans and Americans jointly support the Irish in the ‘20s, before Germany fails to come to the US’s aid in the Pacific War and the US in turn fails to come to Germany’s aid in GWII before it is itself attacked.

The US and Germans do share technology, but it is more limited than CS-British technological relations, and constrained by Entente control over the Atlantic.

We’ve chosen to represent the closer effective alliance between the CS and European Entente differently to the more distant US-German alliance. You are welcome to your own interpretation of the alliances but this is our view of them.

 

[Faeelin]

We’ve chosen to represent the closer effective alliance between the CS and European Entente differently to the more distant US-German alliance. You are welcome to your own interpretation of the alliances but this is our view of them.

Is it your position that one hundred thousand Frenchmen in Arkansas is canonical?

 

[Hexcron]

Is it your position that one hundred thousand Frenchmen in Arkansas is canonical?

No, that is an issue with the AI that I will again state we are trying to fix.

 

[Faeelin]

Fair warning, you will not find a fix that lets you do this. So you have to ask, what's the benefit you're getting by having them be in the same faction? Rule of cool?