WI:Edward of Westminster has a younger twin

[Tyler96]

C) He invades England Tudor-style and kills Richard (if the scenario plays out the same with the princes in the tower) and marries either Elizabeth of York or some other daughter of Edward IV to shore up his english support. I can see Tudor being a important player in his attempts or reign.

The existence of a real Lancastrian claimant on the continent might have a major effect on the motivations of several important figures in 1483, so there's no guarantee Richard's usurpation and/or reign would go down the same as IOTL.

But his Edward IV's brothers weren't so lucky with progeny -George of Clarence had only two children, and Richard of Gloucester had one sickly boy.

You can probably infer the problem was with Anne there, though, given Richard had 2-3 bastards born whilst he was still a teenager.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

You can probably infer the problem was with Anne there, though, given Richard had 2-3 bastards born whilst he was still a teenager.

Did he recognize them, though?

 

[CaptainShadow]

Yes, there are no butterflies in this time period, so Rutland stays as dead as he was IOTL.



But his Edward IV's brothers weren't so lucky with progeny -George of Clarence had only two children, and Richard of Gloucester had one sickly boy.

Different wife for Gloucester,then? They both married sisters who might have been too weak for childbirth.

Also Clarence had 4 children in 6 years of marriage, and Gloucester's miscarriages might have been ignored as he was very far down the succession by 1471(it was suggested somewhere, and isn't impossible)

 

[CaptainShadow]

Did he recognize them, though?

Yep

 

[Tyler96]

Did he recognize them, though?

During his reign, at least- his son John was made Captain of Calais and his daughter Katherine married William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke/Huntingdon.

The only possible one not recognised during his father's reign is the shady 'Richard Plantagenet of Eastwell', who is either Richard's bastard, a charlatan, or (if you buy into one historian's pet theory) secretly Richard of Shrewsbury.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Different wife for Gloucester,then? They both married sisters who might have been too weak for childbirth.

Also Clarence had 4 children in 6 years of marriage, and Gloucester's miscarriages might have been ignored as he was very far down the succession by 1471(it was suggested somewhere, and isn't impossible)

Well, if Anne Neville carries Henry's kid, that she won't be marrying Dick for sure.

The only possible one not recognised during his father's reign is the shady 'Richard Plantagenet of Eastwell', who is either Richard's bastard, a charlatan, or (if you buy into one historian's pet theory) secretly Richard of Shrewsbury.

Could you tell me more about this theory?

 

[CaptainShadow]

Well, if Anne Neville carries Henry's kid, that she won't be marrying Dick for sure.



Could you tell me more about this theory?

Why? I wouldn"t rule out the possiblity seeing as she was co- heiress to her father's extensive lands and fortune......
Also, it has been suggested that Dickie and Anne were childhood sweethearts, which makes the match a bit more likely......


(And here I am, contradicting myself😑)

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Why? I wouldn"t rule out the possiblity seeing as she was co- heiress to her father's extensive lands and fortune......
Also, it has been suggested that Dickie and Anne were childhood sweethearts, which makes the match a bit more likely......

Because she had baby of Henry, and she'd need to agree to kill her son in order to marry Dick.

 

[CaptainShadow]

Because she had baby of Henry, and she'd need to agree to kill her son in order to marry Dick.

Check out Kellan Sullivan's signature, has the same thing happening except it's a girl.


Ain't no one gonna ask Anne Neville to kill her own child.....and seeing that she's a widow she will only marry of her own free will, so that can be a decent excuse if you don't want them to marry.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Ain't no one gonna ask Anne Neville to kill her own child.....and seeing that she's a widow she will only marry of her own free will, so that can be a decent excuse if you don't want them to marry.

Yorkists won't like to kill some Lancastrian heir? And a girl is much easier, because girl can be married to Edward V.

 

[Tyler96]

Could you tell me more about this theory?

It's propagated in David Baldwin's The Lost Prince.

Been a while since I read it, I think the gist was that Edward V died of natural causes and Richard of Shrewsbury was sent off into the country somewhere.

Baldwin also thinks that Henry VII knew about Richard's survival, but cut a deal with Elizabeth Woodville/Elizabeth of York that he'd leave Richard alone if he continued to live in obscurity. Needless to say, there's lots of supposition going on.

Here's some blog posts and reviews and what not-

The Lost Prince - Richard III Society of NSW

David Baldwin, The Lost Prince. Sutton Publishing, 2007. ISBN 978-0-7509-4335-2 Theories as to what happened to the two sons of Edward IV after their father’s death can be broadly divided into three groups: 1. They were both killed at a young age: Opinions exactly when, where and by whom...

www.richardiii-nsw.org.au

Could Richard III's DNA help Solve the Mystery of The Princes in the Tower? - Nerdalicious

The Legend of Richard of Eastwell Richard, a bricklayer, had arrived in Eastwell in 1542 or 1543 and made his way to Lake House, because he had heard Sir Thomas was building a new mansion and he wanted to offer his services. Sir Thomas’ overseer gave him employment after the usual inquiries...

nerdalicious.com.au

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

It's propagated in David Baldwin's The Lost Prince.

Been a while since I read it, I think the gist was that Edward V died of natural causes and Richard of Shrewsbury was sent off into the country somewhere.

Baldwin also thinks that Henry VII knew about Richard's survival, but cut a deal with Elizabeth Woodville/Elizabeth of York that he'd leave Richard alone if he continued to live in obscurity. Needless to say, there's lots of supposition going on.

Here's some blog posts and reviews and what not-

The Lost Prince - Richard III Society of NSW

David Baldwin, The Lost Prince. Sutton Publishing, 2007. ISBN 978-0-7509-4335-2 Theories as to what happened to the two sons of Edward IV after their father’s death can be broadly divided into three groups: 1. They were both killed at a young age: Opinions exactly when, where and by whom...

www.richardiii-nsw.org.au

Could Richard III's DNA help Solve the Mystery of The Princes in the Tower? - Nerdalicious

The Legend of Richard of Eastwell Richard, a bricklayer, had arrived in Eastwell in 1542 or 1543 and made his way to Lake House, because he had heard Sir Thomas was building a new mansion and he wanted to offer his services. Sir Thomas’ overseer gave him employment after the usual inquiries...

nerdalicious.com.au

Ok, thanks, that really seems interesting.

 

[CaptainShadow]

Yorkists won't like to kill some Lancastrian heir? And a girl is much easier, because girl can be married to Edward V.

They would, but Edward IV was concilatory during the beginning, so he might offer the kid.....idk something.

I said that a girl would be better for everyone involved earlier as well.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

They would, but Edward IV was concilatory during the beginning, so he might offer the kid.....idk something.

I said that a girl would be better for everyone involved earlier as well.

The best solution for the boy being in EIV's England is being clergyman.

 

[CaptainShadow]

The best solution for the boy being in EIV's England is being clergyman.

Being restored as Duke of Lancaster is the highest he could go for IMHO.
Your idea is a close second tho

 

[Jan Olbracht]

And idk who Matyas Corvinus is, google tells me he was king of Hungary, why would he interfere in english matters? Unless he and the emperor were at war.......I'll look into him.

Corvinus would not interfere in English matters but he'd distract Maximilian's attention if Max tries to interfere. Matthias was serious threat for Habsburgs, who suffered several humiliating defeats from his hands, Matthias conquered large part of Austria, including Vienna, where he moved his capital.

 

[CaptainShadow]

Corvinus would not interfere in English matters but he'd distract Maximilian's attention if Max tries to interfere. Matthias was serious threat for Habsburgs, who suffered several humiliating defeats from his hands, Matthias conquered large part of Austria, including Vienna, where he moved his capital.

Ohk thx

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Being restored as Duke of Lancaster is the highest he could go for IMHO.
Your idea is a close second tho

I think Ed wouldn't risk him being a duke, clergyman is the best soluton.

 

[CaptainShadow]

I think Ed wouldn't risk him being a duke, clergyman is the best soluton.

After he proves his loyalty, I meant.
But, in retrospect, he probably gets shoved into Church at a young age, so you're right.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

After he proves his loyalty, I meant.
But, in retrospect, he probably gets shoved into Church at a young age, so you're right.

That is, if Yorkists even get custody of him.