TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

[Soundwave3591]

It's more an issue that a lot of the top MG designers in the late 19th and early 20th century were Americans who worked abroad because their wasn't any demand in the States. Furthermore most of them would be from the US in TL 191. So the Brits/French wouldn't have the design work of Hiram Maxim, Lewis, Hotchkiss and potentially John Browning. Browning is the odd man out since he was a Mormon in OTL and in TL 191 the hostility between the LDS church and the Federal Government never ended with the Mormons attempting an absurd number of revolts all of which failed. So if John Browning doesn't die in one of the revolts he might end up fleeing abroad to the CSA, France, or the UK.


In OTL from what I understand the main German MG of WW1 was basically a licensed copy of the Maxim Gun. With the US in TL having so many top notch MG designers and a much larger defense budget and defense industry it might be that Germany ends up copying or licensing US designs instead of the US copying German designs. If the MG 08 is the main German MG in TL then they've licensed an American Maxim gun instead of the British Maxim gun of OTL.

So the US Army might start the war with a decisive advantage in terms of machine guns being the only major power with a "light" machine gun in the form of the Lewis gun.

I'm not a fan of how much Turtledove had the US just copying German designs in WW1 instead of developing it's own. The whole "US develops absolutely no aircraft of it's own and just produces German designs during the FGW" Turtledove had was just dumb. It made sense for the US to copy and buy British/French aircraft in OTL because it had virtually no airforce pre war and had to massively expand it's force incredibly rapidly. Here the US has a much much larger military pre war and much much larger defense industries. The US would undoubtedly cooperate with it's German ally and license produce some engines/aircraft or otherwise use German R&D but would also have it's own R&D efforts.

It's come up before, but Browning Guns are stated to be in use by the USA in the course of the books. the BAR is explicitly named in the "Settling Accounts" books (the exact one escapes me at the moment) and when Gordon McSweeny blows up the CSA river ironclad it says he was carrying a .45. Now, in reality Browning himself wasn't a large-scale manufacturer of firearms, selling most of his designs to larger companies like Colt and Winchester who in turn sold them to the US Military, so that can serve as an explanation for why Browning guns would be in US service despite him being a Mormon. He could also just be a loyalist.

as for Machine Guns, I wouldn't put it past the British to reverse-engineer a Maxim gun purchased through a shell company, considering pretty much every Home-produced Machine gun used by the major powers (Germany, Russia, the UK) in WWI was either a Maxim gun or a copy of one. the odd man out there is France, and even then Hotchkiss was, as you said, an American. This harks back to the Naval arms race that preceded WWI, where every country was spying on each other's development. Not to mention bluntly copying a pre-existing firearm isn't unheard of: case in point, the M1903 Springfield Rifle, which was quite literally a Mauser G98 chambered for .30-06 ammunition. it was such a bold copy that Springfield actually lost a court case for design infringement and had to pay Mauser royalty fees until 1917.

as for Original designs, I counter with the US developing the Tank, or "Barrel" in this timeline, ahead of anyone else, especially the Germans. While the in-universe design of the machine evokes the German A7V it's still worth pointing out.

 

[Father Maryland]

It's come up before, but Browning Guns are stated to be in use by the USA in the course of the books. the BAR is explicitly named in the "Settling Accounts" books (the exact one escapes me at the moment) and when Gordon McSweeny blows up the CSA river ironclad it says he was carrying a .45. Now, in reality Browning himself wasn't a large-scale manufacturer of firearms, selling most of his designs to larger companies like Colt and Winchester who in turn sold them to the US Military, so that can serve as an explanation for why Browning guns would be in US service despite him being a Mormon. He could also just be a loyalist.

as for Machine Guns, I wouldn't put it past the British to reverse-engineer a Maxim gun purchased through a shell company, considering pretty much every Home-produced Machine gun used by the major powers (Germany, Russia, the UK) in WWI was either a Maxim gun or a copy of one. the odd man out there is France, and even then Hotchkiss was, as you said, an American. This harks back to the Naval arms race that preceded WWI, where every country was spying on each other's development. Not to mention bluntly copying a pre-existing firearm isn't unheard of: case in point, the M1903 Springfield Rifle, which was quite literally a Mauser G98 chambered for .30-06 ammunition. it was such a bold copy that Springfield actually lost a court case for design infringement and had to pay Mauser royalty fees until 1917.

as for Original designs, I counter with the US developing the Tank, or "Barrel" in this timeline, ahead of anyone else, especially the Germans. While the in-universe design of the machine evokes the German A7V it's still worth pointing out.

It would be interesting if the LDS church in TL 191 had splintered. Basically a divide between those who would be as you say "Loyalists" and see themselves as Americans and believe that being a Mormon was not inherently incompatible with being loyal to the Federal Government and the Hardliners who would be responsible for all the revolts.

With that splintering the Mormon revolts could be as much sectarian civil wars as unified revolts against US authority with Loyalist militia's and National Guard units battling Hardliner militia's and slaughtering each other's noncombatants. Browning could be a member of something like the American Church of Latter Day Saints versus the banned Independent Church of Latter Day Saints.

Fair enough in regards to the various nations spying on and copying each other. Still it would have been interesting if the US starts the war with a significant edge in terms of small arms (having actual light machine guns in the form of the Lewis and Automatic rifles in the form of the BAR) and water cooled Maxim guns in full scale service with something like the M1919/M2 and perhaps even a semi automatic rifle in development. In Turtledoves TL the US seems to be kind of a laggard regarding small arms development being roughly peer with the industrially much weaker CSA and not really adopting much in terms of new equipment post WW1 (other then SMGs)

In OTL the US army of the era was a tiny force without much in the way of heavy equipment and virtually no domestic military arms industry. In TL 191 the pre war US army is massively larger and has a much larger budget and much larger Defense industry.

 

[Soundwave3591]

In Turtledoves TL the US seems to be kind of a laggard regarding small arms development being roughly peer with the industrially much weaker CSA and not really adopting much in terms of new equipment post WW1 (other then SMGs)

In OTL the US army of the era was a tiny force without much in the way of heavy equipment and virtually no domestic military arms industry. In TL 191 the pre war US army is massively larger and has a much larger budget and much larger Defense industry.

Yes, because in the Alt history the USA has spent the last 40 years building up for "The War" in the spirit of Remembrance. With their twice humiliation at the hands of the CSA and her Allies the USA declared "Never again" and, in alignment with Germany and Austria, adopted the Central Powers military and bureaucracy model. This allowed the US armament industry and military reserves to rapidly expand and thus, when the war came, the USA was ready, willing and eager to redress their losses.

 

[traveller76]

Other States, such as Spain, Brazil and the newly independent Egypt and South Africa, purchased whole squadrons of the fighters at "fire sale" prices, and the Hound Dogs would equip their respective air forces for some time, those of South Africa often flown by former CSAF pilots who fled their disintegrating nation for the Apartheidist country.

Loved the graphics, I would like to see where and how more surplus Confederate and American equipment ended up in the post-war world.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Just a note about the whole "quebecois take inspiration from the motherland" thing. French-canadians ceased to be "french" (as in from France) back in 1763. We do *not* consider ourselves french nor do french people see ourselves as french (a commonly used term is "cousins"). The idea that a newly independent Quebec would adopt french-style uniform is, to me, nonsensical as the last french uniforms worn in what is now quebec were from the ancien régime (that is, pre-revolution) and that within timeline-191, France is an *enemy* of the USA, the country which props up Quebec.

Since the blue colour is canon, to me it would make more sense to have the local government simply dye surplus canadian uniforms like this:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...d-uniforms-thread.36852/page-99#post-18543194

PS: regarding the previous post, most people in Quebec though the whole "Quebec separatists as fashion" thing was a bit offensive.

 

[Soundwave3591]

Loved the graphics, I would like to see where and how more surplus Confederate and American equipment ended up in the post-war world.

 

[Soundwave3591]

Just a note about the whole "quebecois take inspiration from the motherland" thing. French-canadians ceased to be "french" (as in from France) back in 1763. We do *not* consider ourselves french nor do french people see ourselves as french (a commonly used term is "cousins"). The idea that a newly independent Quebec would adopt french-style uniform is, to me, nonsensical as the last french uniforms worn in what is now quebec were from the ancien régime (that is, pre-revolution) and that within timeline-191, France is an *enemy* of the USA, the country which props up Quebec.

Since the blue colour is canon, to me it would make more sense to have the local government simply dye surplus canadian uniforms like this:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...d-uniforms-thread.36852/page-99#post-18543194

PS: regarding the previous post, most people in Quebec though the whole "Quebec separatists as fashion" thing was a bit offensive.

Considering who would be financing and supporting the Quebec forces in this timeline, this might be a more appropriate uniform Cut:

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Considering who would be financing and supporting the Quebec forces in this timeline, this might be a more appropriate uniform Cut:

In my mind, it would have been cheaper for the Quebec government to simply repurpose uniforms already made for the local militia but baring this, yes, something based on the german-inspired US uniform would make a lot of sense.

 

[S. Marlowski]

In the world of TL-191 in the SGW, most of the aircraft being used by the Japanese (such as the A6M "Zero" and the Ki-43 Hayabusa) and all Japanese weapons in General are going to be same as OTL. Though there would be notable difference, which is with the Japanese Ki-61 Hien Fighter, which in OTL has the Kawasaki Ha40, which was a license copy of the German DB601 engine. In TL-191, I would doubt the Germans would allow license production of this engine to the Japanese. I wonder what other powerplant would this baby use ITTL instead.

 

[cortz#9]

In the world of TL-191 in the SGW, most of the aircraft being used by the Japanese (such as the A6M "Zero" and the Ki-43 Hayabusa) and all Japanese weapons in General are going to be same as OTL. Though there would be notable difference, which is with the Japanese Ki-61 Hien Fighter, which in OTL has the Kawasaki Ha40, which was a license copy of the German DB601 engine. In TL-191, I would doubt the Germans would allow license production of this engine to the Japanese. I wonder what other powerplant would this baby use ITTL instead.

Maybe a French or Russian engine? I don't think the Brits or the US would sell them the license to their engines but maybe the CSA would?

 

[cortz#9]

In the world of TL-191 in the SGW, most of the aircraft being used by the Japanese (such as the A6M "Zero" and the Ki-43 Hayabusa) and all Japanese weapons in General are going to be same as OTL. Though there would be notable difference, which is with the Japanese Ki-61 Hien Fighter, which in OTL has the Kawasaki Ha40, which was a license copy of the German DB601 engine. In TL-191, I would doubt the Germans would allow license production of this engine to the Japanese. I wonder what other powerplant would this baby use ITTL instead.

I took a stab at this idea and added sections from a Russian and Italian fighter (Lagg & Macchi), also redid the the belly scoop cause I felt other changes would be required with a different engine.

I'm thinking maybe the Japanese got the license for the engine from Italy or maybe the Austro-Hungarian Empire or even maybe the Ottomans.

 

[S. Marlowski]

Here's my take on ITTL's Ki-61 Hien, which I had added and modified the nose of a Yak-1 to it.

A Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien from the Japanese 17th Sendai on the Burma Front, circa 1944. The Ki-61 was notable as being the only Japanese fighter during the Second Great War to feature an inline V engine, which was a licensed copy of the Russian Klimov V-105 engine. It was also different from most Japanese fighters of the era is the fact that it had featured self sealing fuel tanks. The fighter would enter service with the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service in 1942 and would first see action during the Japanese Invasion of British Malaya in the spring of 1943, where it proved superior to the Hawker Hurricane fighters that the British had there. The plane would continue to see service with the IJAAS until it's replacement by the Nakajima Ki-204 Karyu turbo in 1948. The plane would also see service with the air forces of Thailand, Peru, Ethiopia, Manchukuo, and Paraguay, with Peru being the last to operate them when they were retired in 1969.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Considering who would be financing and supporting the Quebec forces in this timeline, this might be a more appropriate uniform Cut:
View attachment 579163

I had already proposed that while they would adopt the US Stahlhelm, they could simply use the British uniform dyed "Prussian blue"

View attachment 508359

Images modified from Soundwave3591 Ottoman army because their uniform were very similar to what ww1 British uniform looked like.
The Springfield was took from Pattontank12 US army

 

[cortz#9]

View attachment 579358
Here's my take on ITTL's Ki-61 Hien, which I had added and modified the nose of a Yak-1 to it.

A Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien from the Japanese 17th Sendai on the Burma Front, circa 1944. The Ki-61 was notable as being the only Japanese fighter during the Second Great War to feature an inline V engine, which was a licensed copy of the Russian Klimov V-105 engine. It was also different from most Japanese fighters of the era is the fact that it had featured self sealing fuel tanks.

I like it. I was thinking about which countries might sell the license to build their engines to Japan in TL-191 and the only country that I think might do so would be Italy but the problem there is that IOTL Italian engines were copies of German engines and I don't think the Italians would have German engines in TL-191 so the engine on my alt Ki-61 is an Italian copy of a Russian engine.

 

[S. Marlowski]

I'd imagine Germany would have the Ural Bombers, namely the Dornier Do 19 and the Junkers Ju-89 heavy bombers, in their inventory during the early war period of the SGW in TL-191.

My interpretation of the Dornier Do-19

And a drawing of a Ju-89.

 

[S. Marlowski]

Russia's Workhorse: The T-33/76 series.

The T-33 Medium Barrel, the workhorse of the Russian Armored Forces during the Second Great War, was developed throughout the late 1930s which had implemented much of the lessons learned from the Spanish Civil War. The new medium barrel design, the T-33, was for practical purposes a medium barrel version of of the Aleksandr Nevsky heavy barrel with a Christie suspension. During the Russian Invasion of Eastern Europe in 1941*, the T-33 would see it's baptism in fire as the vehicle proved to be a better vehicle in terms armament and armor to most German and Austro-Hungarian barrel designs that it faced. The basic design had a total crew of 5, which consisted of a driver, radio operator/machine-gunner, commander, gunner, and loader. From 1940 to 1944, a grand total of 9,438 T-33/76 vehicles would be manufactured.

T-33 Model 1940 - The first production variant of the T-33, the Model 1940 aka the T-33A by Central Powers intelligence, featured a 76mm F-32 main gun, two searchlights atop the gun mount, three DT-29 machine-guns (hull, coaxial mount, and at the back of the turret) with a potential fourth on the roof for defense against aircraft, and an observation cupola. A total of 341 vehicles would be produced.

T-33 Model 1941 - First leaving the production line shortly after the start of the war, the Model 1941 aka the T-33B, was a revised variant of the Model 1940. The major changes included the main gun being changed to the better 76mm F-34, new simplified hatches on the top of the turret, and the coaxial MG mount being deleted. A grand total 1,487 vehicles would be manufactured.

T-33 Model 1942 - In June of 1942, the Russian Army would introduce into service the T-33 Model 1942, aka the T-33C, which was a simplified design. The changes to the design included a new hexagonal cast turret, the observation cupola was now deleted, new skeleton wheels instead of the older style of solid wheels, and along with increased armor protection. A total of 2,148 examples of this variant would be manufactured.

T-33 Model 1943 - The Model 1943 (aka the T-33D), despite this designation for this particular model, this variant would in fact enter production in October of 1942. This variant would include even more simplifications and design changes, which of these would include a new commander's cupola, a redesigned hull, and the rear turret machine-gun mount would be deleted. A unique sub-variant of this model was made by the UZTM factory in Yekaterinburg, which the turret made by this factory was made by stamping technique out of sheet metal would save production versus the casting or welding techniques that other factories made. This variant would prove to be the most numerous produced variant of the T-33/76 family with a total of 5,462 vehicles would be produced.
============================================
* = Most of the barrels in use by the Russians at this point were either older domestic designs such as the T-26 and T-46 kegs and BT-5 & 7 cavalry barrels or British and French built tanks such as the Mk II Valentine Tank and the Renault G1 Currassier.

 

[cortz#9]

Russia's Workhorse: The T-33/76 series.
View attachment 583045
The T-33 Medium Barrel, the workhorse of the Russian Armored Forces during the Second Great War, was developed throughout the late 1930s which had implemented much of the lessons learned from the Spanish Civil War. The new medium barrel design, the T-33, was for practical purposes a medium barrel version of of the Aleksandr Nevsky heavy barrel with a Christie suspension. During the Russian Invasion of Eastern Europe in 1941*, the T-33 would see it's baptism in fire as the vehicle proved to be a better vehicle in terms armament and armor to most German and Austro-Hungarian barrel designs that it faced. The basic design had a total crew of 5, which consisted of a driver, radio operator/machine-gunner, commander, gunner, and loader. From 1940 to 1944, a grand total of 9,438 T-33/76 vehicles would be manufactured.

T-33 Model 1940 - The first production variant of the T-33, the Model 1940 aka the T-33A by Central Powers intelligence, featured a 76mm F-32 main gun, two searchlights atop the gun mount, three DT-29 machine-guns (hull, coaxial mount, and at the back of the turret) with a potential fourth on the roof for defense against aircraft, and an observation cupola. A total of 341 vehicles would be produced.

T-33 Model 1941 - First leaving the production line shortly after the start of the war, the Model 1941 aka the T-33B, was a revised variant of the Model 1940. The major changes included the main gun being changed to the better 76mm F-34, new simplified hatches on the top of the turret, and the coaxial MG mount being deleted. A grand total 1,487 vehicles would be manufactured.

T-33 Model 1942 - In June of 1942, the Russian Army would introduce into service the T-33 Model 1942, aka the T-33C, which was a simplified design. The changes to the design included a new hexagonal cast turret, the observation cupola was now deleted, new skeleton wheels instead of the older style of solid wheels, and along with increased armor protection. A total of 2,148 examples of this variant would be manufactured.

T-33 Model 1943 - The Model 1943 (aka the T-33D), despite this designation for this particular model, this variant would in fact enter production in October of 1942. This variant would include even more simplifications and design changes, which of these would include a new commander's cupola, a redesigned hull, and the rear turret machine-gun mount would be deleted. A unique sub-variant of this model was made by the UZTM factory in Yekaterinburg, which the turret made by this factory was made by stamping technique out of sheet metal would save production versus the casting or welding techniques that other factories made. This variant would prove to be the most numerous produced variant of the T-33/76 family with a total of 5,462 vehicles would be produced.
============================================
* = Most of the barrels in use by the Russians at this point were either older domestic designs such as the T-26 and T-46 kegs and BT-5 & 7 cavalry barrels or British and French built tanks such as the Mk II Valentine Tank and the Renault G1 Currassier.

Cool designs. If I were you I would make some TD's and SPG's with them.

 

[S. Marlowski]

In early 1943, it has become apparent the T-33/76 model was inferior to the newest barrel models and variants that the Germans and the Austro-Hungarian forces were fielding. In light of this, the Russians would begin development a new variant which was to counter the new enemy barrels. By July of that year, one proposal (the Object 164) would be selected for mass production, which had featured a D-5T 85mm main gun housed in a slightly redesigned version of the T-33/76 Model 1943 turret. The vehicle's armor protection would be improved as well along with an upgraded engine which had improved the vehicle's range.

T-33/85 Model 1943 - The first production version of the T-33/85, also designated by CP Intelligence as the T33E. This vehicle would first see action against German forces during the Battle of Babruysk in White Ruthenia in September of 1943, which had shocked CP Intelligence. This variant would see widespread service during the last months of the war on the Eastern Front with the Russians and in Siberia against the Japanese. A total of 4,051 vehicles would be produced.

T-33/85 Model 1944 - The Model 1944, aka the T-33F, would be final wartime variant of the T-33 series, which it would receive the new F-41 85mm main gun alongside new and improved gunner's optics, radio equipment, an antenna for communications, and a new commander's cupola. Entering production in March of 1944, this variant see use in the last months of Russia's involvement in the SGW as well as heavy use during the Siberian War, where it outclassed all the medium barrels in Japanese service there. After war's end, many of these barrels along with of those of older models would be sold off to other countries for fire sale prices such as Greece, the Ukraine, Finland, Persia, Afghanistan, Romania, Ethiopia, South Africa, and China as well with successor states to the Russian Empire such as the Socialist Russian State, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Alaska. A total of 3,279 of these vehicles would be produced from 1944 to 1948, which in Russian service, would be replaced by the T-54/55 series by the end of the 50s.

 

[Soundwave3591]

my one raised finger of question is that in-universe, it's generally agreed upon that the T-34 Allegory is the US barrel from the Second Great War. While i wouldn't rule out Russia simply copying the designs, one design change i'd make would be to reference the British Cruiser tanks like the Crusader or Cromwell, especially in the running gear.

 

[Father Maryland]

Just a note about the whole "quebecois take inspiration from the motherland" thing. French-canadians ceased to be "french" (as in from France) back in 1763. We do *not* consider ourselves french nor do french people see ourselves as french (a commonly used term is "cousins"). The idea that a newly independent Quebec would adopt french-style uniform is, to me, nonsensical as the last french uniforms worn in what is now quebec were from the ancien régime (that is, pre-revolution) and that within timeline-191, France is an *enemy* of the USA, the country which props up Quebec.

Since the blue colour is canon, to me it would make more sense to have the local government simply dye surplus canadian uniforms like this:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...d-uniforms-thread.36852/page-99#post-18543194

PS: regarding the previous post, most people in Quebec though the whole "Quebec separatists as fashion" thing was a bit offensive.

Seems to me that at least at first the Quebois army/paramilitary would just use old US uniforms potentially dyed. That or potentially captured Canuck uniforms dyed.

Honestly at least at first I feel the Qubecois would use a combination of US uniforms (probably old ones potentially of a style different then the ones currently used by the US Army) and captured Canadian uniform items (modified in some form. Probably dyed a different color) as well as a mixture of civilian apparel. Probably be a very motley group at first with soldiers equipped with bits and pieces from various nations (Old US, old Canadian, civilian apparel). For the US uniforms I could see the US giving the Quebecois large numbers of Second Mexican American War/ACW Union uniforms (Which would probably be pretty much the same as the average OTL Civil War Union uniform. Namely the same sort of blue wool.

Be interesting if the Qubecois when they get their shit together actually use some sort of modified version of the OTL ACW Union Dress uniform as their own Dress uniform. I feel like when they get their shit together for field uniforms they'd probably copy the US (Which I believe wore German style gray uniforms). I believe gray also has the benefit that it's one of the cheapest dyes for uniforms (part of the reason it was the closest thing the OTL ACW Confederates had to a standard uniform.). For a new poor nation getting it's feet saving some money could be quite appealing.

If they do go quickly go for a standard uniform post FGW I could easily see it being some sort of dyed version of the Canadian uniform. When the Canadians surrendered the US would have captured vast numbers of Canuck uniforms. It makes sense that the US would give them as aid to the Quebecois. I could also see the US capturing vast amounts of Canadian equipment (and Confederate gear as well). For the most part these would be non standard for the US and undesirable (though I could potentially see some get kept in reserve stockpiles. Say rechambered Maxim guns and the like set up in deep reserves as emergency weapons to equip militia. So I could see the US giving a lot of gear to the Quebecois to quickly build up their army (which I think was helping with occupation duties in surrounding bits of Anglo former Canada.). You might see the Quebecois eventually rechambering captured Lee Enfield rifles (and some other Canadian/British Kit) to whatever the standard caliber for the US was. I could see them starting off with a handful of armored cars (some military and some converted civilian). And eventually inheriting a handful of US barrels. Artillery would initially be captured Canadian (some re chambered/relined for US calibers).

So you might see french speaking Quebecois wearing Union Blue ACW uniforms and carrying Lee Enfields chambered in 30.06 (or if the US was using the OTL German Standard 7.92 wearing Stalheims.

Similarly when it comes time for a Quebecois airforce at least at first I figure they'd be given captured Canadian/British gear. When that starts falling apart and spares dry up then they'd get surplus US FGW aircraft.