Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2
- Thread starter fester
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WAY TOO EARLY TO SAY.
Just a little scene showing the internal factional challenges of fighting in China.
Story 2339
The Po River Valley, Italy, November 27, 1943
Corporal Jaroshek wanted to keep his head down. He had survived the war so far. He knew better. However the LT and more importantly, the Sarge wanted his head up and his ass moving about. At least the platoon was in good cover that they did not need to break at the moment.
Ten minutes later, he and the rest of his squad had their their heads under cover again and enjoying a hot cup of coffee. The color squares were out and spread on the ground. The platoon's position was clearly outlined from the air but still fairly invisible from anyone who had a snake eye's view. The tin cup warmed his hand as the chemical mortars attached to the battalion started to fire a smoke barrage over the head of the front line infantry. Four minutes of rapid fire led to a line of white smoke 1500 yards from the regiment's front line. A minute later, every gun in the division ceased fire. The artillery men would have a break for the next hour.
Twenty minutes, a cup of coffee and two cigarettes later, the corporal looked up. He saw over one hundred four engine bombers emerge from the southeastern horizon. They were fairly low, maybe less than two miles overhead. Four minutes later, they passed over the front lines and less than a minute after that, the earth shook as one of the German regiments that had been cut-off during the offensive was bombed yet again. The 28th Infantry Division was holding the western edge of the pocket that held four German infantry divisions, while the Canadians held the eastern edge. The generals had decided that there was no need to advance and root out the Germans man to man, and rifle to rifle. Artillery would do most of the work when the bombers were not available. Until then, American and Canadian riflemen would watch and drink their coffee waiting for a desperate break out attempt.
Corporal Jaroshek wanted to keep his head down. He had survived the war so far. He knew better. However the LT and more importantly, the Sarge wanted his head up and his ass moving about. At least the platoon was in good cover that they did not need to break at the moment.
Ten minutes later, he and the rest of his squad had their their heads under cover again and enjoying a hot cup of coffee. The color squares were out and spread on the ground. The platoon's position was clearly outlined from the air but still fairly invisible from anyone who had a snake eye's view. The tin cup warmed his hand as the chemical mortars attached to the battalion started to fire a smoke barrage over the head of the front line infantry. Four minutes of rapid fire led to a line of white smoke 1500 yards from the regiment's front line. A minute later, every gun in the division ceased fire. The artillery men would have a break for the next hour.
Twenty minutes, a cup of coffee and two cigarettes later, the corporal looked up. He saw over one hundred four engine bombers emerge from the southeastern horizon. They were fairly low, maybe less than two miles overhead. Four minutes later, they passed over the front lines and less than a minute after that, the earth shook as one of the German regiments that had been cut-off during the offensive was bombed yet again. The 28th Infantry Division was holding the western edge of the pocket that held four German infantry divisions, while the Canadians held the eastern edge. The generals had decided that there was no need to advance and root out the Germans man to man, and rifle to rifle. Artillery would do most of the work when the bombers were not available. Until then, American and Canadian riflemen would watch and drink their coffee waiting for a desperate break out attempt.
Where is the front line now in the Po Valley? IS it along the main Po River or beyond it?
Italian Fronts Late November 1943
I am going to assume the black line represents the Italian army. Also that the Red line around Genoa is primarily the Italians as well.
So would I be right in saying the allied plan now is:
1 Destroy German pocket
2:Link up on land with Italians in Genoa and Venice
3: Push towards Milan as opportunity allows.
What I am thinking is that once you link up with the Italians then they could take over the front lines allowing the Western Allies to pull back a lot of their British, Canadian and US troops to give more troops for France.
So would I be right in saying the allied plan now is:
1 Destroy German pocket
2:Link up on land with Italians in Genoa and Venice
3: Push towards Milan as opportunity allows.
What I am thinking is that once you link up with the Italians then they could take over the front lines allowing the Western Allies to pull back a lot of their British, Canadian and US troops to give more troops for France.
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This may become the Italian campaign version of the Falaise Pocket though on a smaller scale.
Nice map fester. I wonder what is the strength of the German 10th Army.
Italian-American forces in Genoa. Italian forces in Venice.
Primary objective is to destroy the German field armies. No real need to link up with Venice as the combination of the RM, RN and USN control at least coastal traffic in the Adriatic so supply lines are anywhere from secure to rock-solid. The threat of a break-out attempt is doing more than enough to hinder German operational mobility.
Long run the Germans are probably happy enough to pull back to the Alpine passes in the east but they really want/need to hold onto Milan and the Upper Po Valley for manufacturing and food supply reasons.
Hecatee
Donor
The terrain is very, very different from the Falaise Pocket : if I recall correctly my trip in the area it is very flat and with much less hedges, although there is somewhat more canals and small waterways
formion
Banned
The only chance to hold on to Milan would be if the Swiss let the Germans use their railways to Italy. Otherwise they have the single Iine connecting them to France.
It would be better for the Allies if the Germans insist on fighting across the Po plains. The terrain is not the best for defence and the Allies can concentrate their material superiority. After all, the green Allied divisions need some experience. Better to gain it in the Po valley than the footfills of the Alps or across the old austro-italian frontier.
I disagree to some extent.
10th and 14th Army are very loosely linked at this time. The terrain north and northeast of Brescia is almost perfect defensive country where armor is next to useless until the infantry can clear both sides of the valley of any anti-tank guns. 14th Army would like to hold the plains north of Venice but can and will be able to retreat and fort up in the Alps and fight a long, slow infantry-centric battle from well prepared positions to stop any advance into Austria.
As far as 10th Army, the Allied position in Genoa is far enough out from the port to keep artillery away from the ships that are unloading in the harbor but they have yet to break out of the 600M-1,000M mountains. The Germans hold at least two sets of peaks on each valley between the port and the river lowlands to the north. Trying to jam a few armored divisions into the valleys is asking for a bunch of 88 crews to claim tank destroyer ace in a day status.
The 10th Army position anchored between the mountains and now facing US 5th Army is about 60 miles of lowlands and ~30 miles of highlands plus the screening force around Genoa. If they can consolidate over a few days, the force density is high enough that there are going to be few easy advances. Their logistical position is not great as most of the supply line is running through France and then through the Alps, but it it is tolerable at the moment. 14th Army is being supplied through Austria and the Alpine passes.
The Allied 15th Army Group is more than happy to bite and hold, bite and hold and then exploit to Turin after a meaty bite makes the Germans yelp. Right now, the Army Group Commander wants to reduce the German pocket and bag ~4 divisions with 50,000 men including a Panzer division, link up with Venice and then consolidate positions. The intermediate term goal is for either a strike down the east coast of the Adriatic(if UK gets their way) or to press the German 10th Army more and seize Milan (if US gets their way) in spring 1944. He has no intention nor much of a need to destroy the 14th Army once they are in the mountains and off the plains.
McPherson
Banned
Look at your road net and terrain. Alessandria unlocks Genoa and it is a good hard march to Milan. How is 10th going to be supplied now? From Switzerland? In the British sector... From Parma it is a straight road march to Brescia, then hook to Lago de Garda. What happens to 14th German army when their boundary with 10th Germany army is unzipped? They have to retreat fast north to Rovereto and try to re-establish right flank boundary with 10th German army. And their east to west transverse supply situation has gotten a lot worse.
LOGISTICS.
From Wiki (^^^)
LOGISTICS.
From Wiki (^^^)
I am slightly confused as to why you think that there is going to be fast pursuit through the Alps to flank the 14th Army as a rifle battalion and a well supplied with high explosives engineering company can stop a division's advance cold for a day or two and then repeat that feat another 800 meters to the rear for as long as they goddamn want to. Yeah, as soon the 14th Army retreats to the mountains, it is going to be a set of independent divisions/brigades with central reinforcements and supplies taking multiple days to shift routes and destinations, but that is true as well for the Americans and British armies. The 14th Army can engage in a massive economy of force mission and trade ridges for time several dozen times before they run out of ridges. At this time, the 10th and 14th Armies are very lightly linked --- patrols along the northwestern shore of Lake Garda as there is no amphibious threat of the Allies swimming the lake and turning the line. A complete cut between the armies has minimal changes happening.
Coming out of Genoa, I am counting 4 routes northward between Genoa and Vesima on today's Google Maps. None of these routes are particularly broad. Each route has multiple choke points of less than 800 meters wide where defenders have 100-200 meter height advantages on anyone coming north through the valley. Yes, if the Allies could force a corps through the mountains and onto the southern edges of the Upper Po River Valley lowlands, they'll make the 10th Army's position untenable. They can read that map. The Germans can read that map the same way. And the Germans are dug in those mountains north of Genoa with multiple fall back positions with the intent and ability to make any break-out force from Genoa to bleed themselves dry to go through the mountains. The cheap advance up the Italian leg was a combination of Italian forces seizing key passes and almost as importantly, the Germans getting caught out of position allowing for very light US and UK commanded forces to go hell for leather north. There were very few blocking forces in the Appenines that were more powerful than a lightly supported battalion. And those forces could hold for a day or two until they were either buried under a corps worth of artillery, ran out of ammo, or flanked. The corps worth of artillery problem from the German POV is still present, but the other two problems are far smaller for the Germans now than late September.
McPherson
Banned
Because lakes and rivers and glaciers have terrain effects that degrade the defense in that region, the road net is as much a handicap for the Germans as it is for the allies and because RTL once the Allies broke into the Po Valley, it is what happened.
Same thing. Add that the American artillery, if it is ATL used as it was RTL and the Germans are "tote Kaninchen in ihren Kaninchenhütten getötet" (dead rabbits killed in their rabbit hutches.) The cellular nature of of the terrain dictates it.
Best thing would have the 8th Army push north and link up with the troops in Venice and push the Germans back enough they cannot interdict either the road or rail network. Then you have an extremely large port area to use for supplying the north of Italy and not have to transport everything up from the south. Then you have with the shortened supply lines a way to stock pile enough for a drive on MIlan. You only have to make the Germans pull back enough to open the coast road and rail up to use Genoa. Get and Amphibious tractor BN. up there and run a few raids over the lake. Land far enough away from the German lines and at night where they hear Tanks coming and make them panic a bit. Then retreat back to the lake and Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
In Northern Italy it's only necessary to push the German army off the industrial cities and rich farmland of the Po river valley and its tributaries. As in Greece once the Germans withdraw into the mountains they only need to be kept there by the minimal Allied forces. Perhaps largely Italian army. No need to attempt to push through the Alps (Jesus Murphy!) to conquer the Third Reich. There is a better route that will be taken starting in the Spring.
One can only imagine the logistical losses the German 10th and 14th army are suffering due to Allied airpower and Italian partisans along those vulnerable railroad supply routes.
One can only imagine the logistical losses the German 10th and 14th army are suffering due to Allied airpower and Italian partisans along those vulnerable railroad supply routes.
formion
Banned
Exactly! The Allies can rush Austria and Hungary on the final weeks of the war when the Heer is almost destroyed. It would be a bloodbath otherwise.
Story 2340
Camp Hale, Colorado November 28, 1943
The civilian truck drivers paused for a moment and took the last drag from his Chesterfield. He turned the key and babied the engine from a cough to a steady purr. It would be a long, slow drive to the garage but once there, he could park for the night and then curl up in the small bunkhouse with a dozen other drivers who were waiting for the weather to clear before heading to Denver.
Even as the old Ford was passing through the gate, 500 men were getting ready for a modest twenty five mile jaunt through chest deep snow.
The civilian truck drivers paused for a moment and took the last drag from his Chesterfield. He turned the key and babied the engine from a cough to a steady purr. It would be a long, slow drive to the garage but once there, he could park for the night and then curl up in the small bunkhouse with a dozen other drivers who were waiting for the weather to clear before heading to Denver.
Even as the old Ford was passing through the gate, 500 men were getting ready for a modest twenty five mile jaunt through chest deep snow.
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