Der Kampf: The Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer
- Thread starter Tanner151
- Start date
Is Otto Von Hapsburg going to play a big role in this timeline? I imagined he'd weep at the sight of what Hitler will do to his country.
Although we haven't got to the formation of the party yet, I think the OP has already decided this:
Having said that, I have to agree that 'Sozinat' seems a bit long as a contraction and although 'Sozi' would work in German, it probably wouldn't catch on in English speaking countries in the same way that 'Nazi' did OTL*. I think the English contraction would probably end up being something like 'Snat' - so there would be would talk about the evil 'Snats', etc.
* OTL 'Nazi' seems to be used in most languages that I know of. 'Sozi' would, I think, work in Dutch and in Scandinavian languages and I guess it would probably be okay in most Eastern European languages too, but I'm not sure about in French, Italian, Spanish or others.
However, as ever, the final decision is the author's to make.
Ficboy
Banned
@Tanner151, I wonder what's going to happen with the United States, the United Kingdom, Japan and a couple of other nations.
I could see that, IOTL Otto did try to prevent the Anschluss and was friends with FDR. Also fun fact, dude lived until 2011 where his body was brought to the Imperial Crypt in Austria and his heart to Archabbey in Hungary.
Frankly, Yugoslavia is the best first target, for several reasons.
Firstly, it is a nation deeply divided along ethnic lines, with Serbs pulling all the strings, and Slovenes and Croatians sometimes classified as "Catholic Serbs", which for some reason did not go all to well... In short, Serbs have all the power, they do not want to share, they kill off one Croatian Politician, Macedonians and Croatians kill the Serbian King, fun times for all involved.
Secondly, if the Hitler gets a move on early enough, without involving the Italians, he does not have to share any of that Dalmatian Coast, thus avoiding Croatians getting pissed off like IOTL, where Pavelić signed off significant part of it to Italy.
Lastly, getting Slovenia and Croatia out of Yugoslavia could very easily be portrayed as "liberation" of sorts. Though, I do admit I would like to see "buffed" Croatia-Slovenia, either as its standalone nation, or as a part of this Danubian State/A-H Monarchy 2.0
Well, the White uniforms are for the Honor Guards and the parades, and other such occasions. Light Gray should however be more then adequate for service uniforms. OTL, unless I am mistaken, the Interwar Austrian Army used field grey uniforms, while the Hungarians used khaki.
Though, I am really looking forward to seeing how Hitler approaches Remilitarization ITTL, considering much smaller manpower and industrial resources Austria has at its disposal. Even OTL Wehrmacht had tremendous difficulties in regards to mechanization, relying of foot infantry and horse drawn logistics, and here it is going to be much much worse. Still, a lot depends how early years go, and what Hitler can grab without going to war.
And frankly, it is not like any of the armies in the region were any better. Yugoslavs for example still used oxen to transport their artillery and logistics in some units, with most others being just as bad.
So far the only hint we have as to what will be going on in the UK and Japan is this quote by Alexander Falkenhausen.
It seems to indicate an earlier war between the Commonwealth and Japan.
Sozier work fine in Scandinavian the main problem is the similarity in pronouncement to Sosse the Scandinavian shortening of Social Democrats.
Deleted member 94680
I imagine they come from the same root? Sozi was a pejorative term for Socialists in the same way Nazi was for the National Socialists.
First off, I want to say thank you to everyone for the comments, feedback and discussion! It really motivates me as a writer and it is helping me refine aspects of the story and is introducing new elements and causing me to brainstorm. Great stuff!
Also I got married this weekend, just got back from my honeymoon and continuing to move into my house. Once things have settled uploads will return more consistently. I currently have the next chapter started and an outline there for the next few chapters. Just need to sit down and hammer them out.
Won't say much on this due to spoilers but excellent points made. The Axis Powers ITTL will be working more in a semi-equal alliance that acknowledges Vienna's hegemony rather than be clients of Austria like many OTL Axis Power nations were to Germany OTL. Yugoslavia will be the first military campaign carried out by the Volkswehr and will be one of Hitler's greatest triumphs as Führer and acts as a testbed for Austria's new military theory, which is a essentially blitzkrieg but I'm calling it at the moment Stahlfeuer (Steelfire). Will have tanks, armored vehicles, trucks, and mobile artillery alongside infantry. Name change is due to butterflies and it originating in Austria and not Germany.
Strasser becoming the leader of the DAP or the DSNVP is likely. Goering will flirt with militant right wing parties in the '20s and '30s but as of now will not come to power in any significant way. This is subject to change however as it isn't set in stone.
There will be ethnic discrimination against Jews, Gypsies, and other such groups, as well as imprisonment and frequent execution of political prisoners. Hitler is still Hitler and the Social Nationalists are Nazis by another name, but any Holocaust-like event will be different due to changed circumstances, different WW2 outcome, and with Social Nationalism viewing Slavs as Aryan there won't be any mass extermination of Slavic people like OTL at least on ethnic grounds. No Hunger Plan, for Slavs at least.
To differentiate between OTL Hitler and Nazis and TTL Hitler and Sozinats there needed to be some changes to show butterflies. Another example is that Austria won't be called the Reich, that belongs to Germany, it will be called the State (Staat). For example, the Austrian version of Gestapo and Security Police will be State Security (Staatsicherseit, SS). Same initials with similar duties and responsibilities.
And the SA equivalent is the Sturmwache (SW, Storm Guard) but they become the Waffen-SS/Liebstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler after Hitler comes to power. There is no Kristallnacht at the moment, or if there is one it will be a much changed event.
I haven't said anywhere whether or not Austria wins or loses or if Hitler commits suicide. Things will change, some minor, others significant.
Neo-Fascist/Neo-Sozinat sounds like it would work in a world if Austria loses WW2. Not saying they do or don't but I can see the term working in it.
Correct. Austria and its people will be viewed with hostility as warmongers and will have that stigma attached to them during the 1940s.
Romania being considered as an enemy due to its participation in WW1 and being home to huge oil reserves would make it a prime target for the Axis, unless it joined the Axis from the get-go. Remains to be seen, depending how the story plays out.
The German Reich will be restored to the Second German Empire in the 1930s. The Hohenzollern monarch will not be Wilhelm II, as yes he is very old and the monarchists in Germany don't exactly want to bring back the guy who was blamed for a lot of Germany's mishaps during the Great War. Who the Hohenzollern monarch will be is up in the air for me. I have it narrowed down to five candidates, one being Crown Prince Wilhelm aka Wilhelm III as the default one but I have ideas that would change that line of succession.
Bosnia will be a hellhole.... an absolute hellhole.
France will have various degrees of success in North Africa. Also North Africa will be a secondary theatre but not the main one it became during 1941-1943. And even though Axis forces will be present in North Africa, the amount of Austrian units will be effectively nonexistent. Hitler has to be really careful with his manpower/resources as he can't exactly suffer several costly defeats. He has to depend on his allies for manpower to supplement the Volkswehr.
Thank you! Glad you are enjoying the story.
Hitler's Austria will make several moves to circumvent its disadvantages, especially early on in the war and the years preceding it, whether it be territorial, resource-wise and population.
Hitler is a charismatic speaker, and the threat of Communism will cause many to ally themselves to Hitler's Austria. Many factors will go into why Europe in TTL's 1930s/1940s is different than OTL Europe.
Correct. Austria itself won't grow very large, but it and its allies will control vast swathes of Europe.
Hitler himself will not exert much power in Africa. Few if any Austrian soldiers will fight in Africa, but his allies will fight there.
Reason I went with Sozinat was to show the combination of Social (Sozial) and Nationalist (Nationalistische). It may be artificial, but don't want to go with Sozi as that is short for Socialist which there are Socialist elements, like the Social Democrats which are moderates.
Thank you.
Austria will have a navy (Volksmarine) but will consist of torpedo boats, patrol boats, and once Yugoslavia falls a couple of frigates/destroyers and a light cruiser as the Navy's flagship. It will be largey a joke when compared to the navies of Italy, Germany, Britain, France and the USA but is to show the flag for all intents and purposes and patrol the former Yugoslavian coastline.
Volkswehr (Armed Forces)
-Volksheer (Army)
---Luftstreitkräfte (Air Force)
-Volksmarine (Navy)
Navy is by far the smallest, the Army receives the lion's share of resources and manpower while the Austrian Air Force never becomes as large or imposing as the German Luftwaffe.
He will play a role. The significance of it is ever changing.
Sozinat will be the main nickname but I like Snats. I feel that could be a insulting nickname in Britain and the U.S for Social Nationalists.
Nothing major will happen differently until the 1930s/1940s. Hitler being an Austrian politician rather than German does little to change the world in the short term. Its when he comes to power that things to start to really butterfly.
Really? That's awesome!
All true. Yugoslavia is very divided and will be split according to Hitler's wishes after it falls. Portions will be annexed by Axis nations while others will be puppet states. White uniforms will be for select honor guards, pike "light" gray for the army after the Sozinats come to power and I see no reason why the Hungarians should change uniform color, so khaki it is.
The Austrians will have major difficulties and significant shortages, but their early moves of aggression will alleviate many of these, though not fully in every field.
Correct, it begins in 1940 rather than 1941.
Also I got married this weekend, just got back from my honeymoon and continuing to move into my house. Once things have settled uploads will return more consistently. I currently have the next chapter started and an outline there for the next few chapters. Just need to sit down and hammer them out.
Won't say much on this due to spoilers but excellent points made. The Axis Powers ITTL will be working more in a semi-equal alliance that acknowledges Vienna's hegemony rather than be clients of Austria like many OTL Axis Power nations were to Germany OTL. Yugoslavia will be the first military campaign carried out by the Volkswehr and will be one of Hitler's greatest triumphs as Führer and acts as a testbed for Austria's new military theory, which is a essentially blitzkrieg but I'm calling it at the moment Stahlfeuer (Steelfire). Will have tanks, armored vehicles, trucks, and mobile artillery alongside infantry. Name change is due to butterflies and it originating in Austria and not Germany.
Strasser becoming the leader of the DAP or the DSNVP is likely. Goering will flirt with militant right wing parties in the '20s and '30s but as of now will not come to power in any significant way. This is subject to change however as it isn't set in stone.
There will be ethnic discrimination against Jews, Gypsies, and other such groups, as well as imprisonment and frequent execution of political prisoners. Hitler is still Hitler and the Social Nationalists are Nazis by another name, but any Holocaust-like event will be different due to changed circumstances, different WW2 outcome, and with Social Nationalism viewing Slavs as Aryan there won't be any mass extermination of Slavic people like OTL at least on ethnic grounds. No Hunger Plan, for Slavs at least.
To differentiate between OTL Hitler and Nazis and TTL Hitler and Sozinats there needed to be some changes to show butterflies. Another example is that Austria won't be called the Reich, that belongs to Germany, it will be called the State (Staat). For example, the Austrian version of Gestapo and Security Police will be State Security (Staatsicherseit, SS). Same initials with similar duties and responsibilities.
And the SA equivalent is the Sturmwache (SW, Storm Guard) but they become the Waffen-SS/Liebstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler after Hitler comes to power. There is no Kristallnacht at the moment, or if there is one it will be a much changed event.
I haven't said anywhere whether or not Austria wins or loses or if Hitler commits suicide. Things will change, some minor, others significant.
Neo-Fascist/Neo-Sozinat sounds like it would work in a world if Austria loses WW2. Not saying they do or don't but I can see the term working in it.
Correct. Austria and its people will be viewed with hostility as warmongers and will have that stigma attached to them during the 1940s.
Romania being considered as an enemy due to its participation in WW1 and being home to huge oil reserves would make it a prime target for the Axis, unless it joined the Axis from the get-go. Remains to be seen, depending how the story plays out.
The German Reich will be restored to the Second German Empire in the 1930s. The Hohenzollern monarch will not be Wilhelm II, as yes he is very old and the monarchists in Germany don't exactly want to bring back the guy who was blamed for a lot of Germany's mishaps during the Great War. Who the Hohenzollern monarch will be is up in the air for me. I have it narrowed down to five candidates, one being Crown Prince Wilhelm aka Wilhelm III as the default one but I have ideas that would change that line of succession.
Bosnia will be a hellhole.... an absolute hellhole.
France will have various degrees of success in North Africa. Also North Africa will be a secondary theatre but not the main one it became during 1941-1943. And even though Axis forces will be present in North Africa, the amount of Austrian units will be effectively nonexistent. Hitler has to be really careful with his manpower/resources as he can't exactly suffer several costly defeats. He has to depend on his allies for manpower to supplement the Volkswehr.
Thank you! Glad you are enjoying the story.
Hitler's Austria will make several moves to circumvent its disadvantages, especially early on in the war and the years preceding it, whether it be territorial, resource-wise and population.
Hitler is a charismatic speaker, and the threat of Communism will cause many to ally themselves to Hitler's Austria. Many factors will go into why Europe in TTL's 1930s/1940s is different than OTL Europe.
Correct. Austria itself won't grow very large, but it and its allies will control vast swathes of Europe.
Hitler himself will not exert much power in Africa. Few if any Austrian soldiers will fight in Africa, but his allies will fight there.
Reason I went with Sozinat was to show the combination of Social (Sozial) and Nationalist (Nationalistische). It may be artificial, but don't want to go with Sozi as that is short for Socialist which there are Socialist elements, like the Social Democrats which are moderates.
Thank you.
Austria will have a navy (Volksmarine) but will consist of torpedo boats, patrol boats, and once Yugoslavia falls a couple of frigates/destroyers and a light cruiser as the Navy's flagship. It will be largey a joke when compared to the navies of Italy, Germany, Britain, France and the USA but is to show the flag for all intents and purposes and patrol the former Yugoslavian coastline.
Volkswehr (Armed Forces)
-Volksheer (Army)
---Luftstreitkräfte (Air Force)
-Volksmarine (Navy)
Navy is by far the smallest, the Army receives the lion's share of resources and manpower while the Austrian Air Force never becomes as large or imposing as the German Luftwaffe.
He will play a role. The significance of it is ever changing.
Sozinat will be the main nickname but I like Snats. I feel that could be a insulting nickname in Britain and the U.S for Social Nationalists.
Nothing major will happen differently until the 1930s/1940s. Hitler being an Austrian politician rather than German does little to change the world in the short term. Its when he comes to power that things to start to really butterfly.
Really? That's awesome!
All true. Yugoslavia is very divided and will be split according to Hitler's wishes after it falls. Portions will be annexed by Axis nations while others will be puppet states. White uniforms will be for select honor guards, pike "light" gray for the army after the Sozinats come to power and I see no reason why the Hungarians should change uniform color, so khaki it is.
The Austrians will have major difficulties and significant shortages, but their early moves of aggression will alleviate many of these, though not fully in every field.
Correct, it begins in 1940 rather than 1941.
Last edited:
Ficboy
Banned
Given that Sozinat Austria is weaker and less resources than Nazi Germany not to mention how different the Holocaust and Kristallnacht will be including the lack of any anti-West Slavic sentiment (except the Russians) it makes Hitler less evil compared to OTL's version of him. Speaking of which, will there be a Triumph of the Will esque film and my guess is that the Sozinat Party will wear brown and black clothes like the Nazi Party. Neo-Fascist should be the term to describe Neo-Nazis in this universe.
Less evil? Ehh no not really. Just less able to carry out his evil to the scale of OTL. I would say he is a smidge more pragmatic on ethnic lines but that's about it. Also, little weird fact will be that Hitler here won't become a vegetarian, he will continue to eat meat but will largely abstain from alcohol by the time he is dictator.
There will be a major propaganda film, yes, but no idea what it will be called just yet.
Sozinat colors will be light gray, dark blue, and red and white. The Sturmwache will be wearing dark blue uniforms. Red and white are Austrian colors.
Thank you!
Ficboy
Banned
So no brown. If I recall the Austro-Hungarians did wear brown as one of their colors during World War I.