Pop-culture in TL-191

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That scene also makes the contempt that many Americans had for white Confederates very apparent. To me that fact would mean that many if not most would oppose reincorporating them into the US as fellow Americans. Imagine all the stereotypes about Southerners OTL plus the actual fact that most of them were either complicit or direct participants with mass murder- Canadians,Mormons even Mexicans would be viewed as potential Americans ahead of white Confederates....

Well, I think it would be a generational thing. The US would probably institute policies which would force a 'Yankee' educational system on the children of Confederate citizens, but the Confederacy was independent for 70 years. That kind of ingrained nationalism would take decades to break down, to say nothing about Saul Goldman's wartime propaganda.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Well, I think it would be a generational thing. The US would probably institute policies which would force a 'Yankee' educational system on the children of Confederate citizens, but the Confederacy was independent for 70 years. That kind of ingrained nationalism would take decades to break down, to say nothing about Saul Goldman's wartime propaganda.
Right. I saw it coming of course but I was really disappointed by the way the books ended with the whole reintergration asap policy being announced by Dewey and Truman. Its not only unrealistic but would be deeply unpopular .Americans would say wait a minute what exactly were we just fighting for? In 1948 I would think that could play a role with Dewey and Truman being defeated by the Socialists-hows that for an alternate headline :)
 
Right. I saw it coming of course but I was really disappointed by the way the books ended with the whole reintergration asap policy being announced by Dewey and Truman. Its not only unrealistic but would be deeply unpopular .Americans would say wait a minute what exactly were we just fighting for? In 1948 I would think that could play a role with Dewey and Truman being defeated by the Socialists-hows that for an alternate headline :)
Well, let's look at reality, how many ex-Nazis ended up in positions of authority in the post-war World?

FFS one such man, Kurt Waldheim, who served as an Army Intel officer in Greece and Yugoslavia, where dozes of atrocities were carried out by the Nazis, was Secretary General of the UN!

Adolf Heusinger, Former Chief of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht and head of the Cartography office, who was actually in several photos with Hitler? Chairman of the NATO military committee from 1961-64!

Werner von Braun, SS member whose rockets were assembled by Slave labor and rained devastation on London? Head of NASA, credited with getting humanity to the moon!

how quickly did the West sweep Nazi crimes under the rug or pin them solely on the inner circles of the SS and the regime in order to justify German rearmament? how many imprisoned Nazis were released before their prison sentences were filled?
 
Depending on what the post war world looks like "weeabo" might be TTLs version of "Tankie" and an obsession with German history might be something aling the lines of "anglophile." Although it probably wouldnt be called "wheraboo." Prussophile maybe?
Well, I could see something along the lines of the "Death trap" myth about US barrels, along the lines of Belton Cooper's damning book "Death Traps" which is one of the primary sources of the Sherman Tank's unfounded reputation for being a piece of junk, emerging about US barrels due to their inferiority to Confederate machines in the early part of the war.
Subsequently, this could expand to apply to ALL US barrels, even the later war models, and give rise to something similar to the almost cult-like fanboying over German tanks of our timeline, only this time it's over Confederate and British Machines.
 
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MaxGerke01

Banned
Well, let's look at reality, how many ex-Nazis ended up in positions of authority in the post-war World?

FFS one such man, Kurt Waldheim, who served as an Army Intel officer in Greece and Yugoslavia, where dozes of atrocities were carried out by the Nazis, was Secretary General of the UN!

Adolf Heusinger, Former Chief of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht and head of the Cartography office, who was actually in several photos with Hitler? Chairman of the NATO military committee from 1961-64!

Werner von Braun, SS member whose rockets were assembled by Slave labor and rained devastation on London? Head of NASA, credited with getting humanity to the moon!

how quickly did the West sweep Nazi crimes under the rug or pin them solely on the inner circles of the SS and the regime in order to justify German rearmament? how many imprisoned Nazis were released before their prison sentences were filled?
Well my answer is far too many for my taste. But that said I think there is a difference with Tl-191 and thats the lack of an equivalent of the Soviet menace that it was felt made it necessary to strengthen West Germany even if former Nazi bodies were involved. There is no outside menace threatening the US- save Japan but thas not close to the same level. But even if Japan and Germany and the former Entente were all coming after the US with is superbombs and sunbombs it still doesnt have to play nice with Dixie and former Freedomites to protect itself. It doesnt and I would hope wouldnt....
 
Well my answer is far too many for my taste. But that said I think there is a difference with Tl-191 and thats the lack of an equivalent of the Soviet menace that it was felt made it necessary to strengthen West Germany even if former Nazi bodies were involved. There is no outside menace threatening the US- save Japan but thas not close to the same level. But even if Japan and Germany and the former Entente were all coming after the US with is superbombs and sunbombs it still doesnt have to play nice with Dixie and former Freedomites to protect itself. It doesnt and I would hope wouldnt....
Well, look at things logistically: the US now has to police All of the former CSA, including the states of Sonora, Chihuahua and Cuba, as well as ALL of Canada, something that IRL the USA never had to put up with. In the space of 4 years the US has more than doubled the space it is committed to defending and policing.
Even at maximum military standing, that's a LOT of troops to feed, arm, equip and house, and they're spread across literally half the collective landmass of the Western Hemisphere, in the middle of territory that isn't exactly happy for them to be there.
Quebec and Texas help somewhat, but they aren't permanent fixes, and there is a likelihood that plenty of ex-CSA personnel fled into Mexico and to the CSA's South American Allies.
The US needs to secure its position simply in order to MAINTAIN what it has.
 
Getting on the topic of Pop-Culture in TL 191, would German Expressionism still be a thing? How would German Cinema and literature be different in this world?
 
Getting on the topic of Pop-Culture in TL 191, would German Expressionism still be a thing? How would German Cinema and literature be different in this world?
Wasn’t German Expressionism a reaction to Germanys loss in World War One though?
 
Wasn’t German Expressionism a reaction to Germanys loss in World War One though?
From what i've heard, it had it's roots before WW1, but it's most well known for it's role in post-war Germany. On the topic of 1920s films, I wonder how the film industry would evolve in Russia without the Soviets.
 
Another thing, One of the first ever blockbusters, Birth of the Nation from 1915 (One which has aged horribly) focuses heavily on Reconstruction. So this really makes me wonder what the first Blockbuster in TL 191 would be about. Seeing that the Union and Confederacy would be at war in 1915, I can see it being a Confederate Propaganda Film that focuses on the South's glorious victories in both the Mexican War and War of Secession. It could even still maintain it's name "Birth of a Nation."
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Well, look at things logistically: the US now has to police All of the former CSA, including the states of Sonora, Chihuahua and Cuba, as well as ALL of Canada, something that IRL the USA never had to put up with. In the space of 4 years the US has more than doubled the space it is committed to defending and policing.
Even at maximum military standing, that's a LOT of troops to feed, arm, equip and house, and they're spread across literally half the collective landmass of the Western Hemisphere, in the middle of territory that isn't exactly happy for them to be there.
Quebec and Texas help somewhat, but they aren't permanent fixes, and there is a likelihood that plenty of ex-CSA personnel fled into Mexico and to the CSA's South American Allies.
The US needs to secure its position simply in order to MAINTAIN what it has.
Well there is a really good chance that like with Quebec -Sonora and Chihuahua and Cuba could end up being independent US client states not to mention the state of Houston being resurrected and parts of the CSA proper being either re-incorporated into the US or made independent states. After 2 generations of US control holding down Canada would be getting much less difficult partially because while there was bitterness and hatred on the part of the Canadians towards their American overlords it was always much less ingrained than between Americans and Confederates. Plus Quebec would do a fair amount of the heavy lifting with Canada. Also most Americans probably think there is no reason that Canadians wouldnt make good Americans.
Then there are the Mormons who might still be problematic. Many would possibly be willing to exist with US in Utah but if not the mass deportation to the Sandwich Islands option is a possibility so problem solved there. Plus the US southern borders are ok not counting of course the thousands of Mexican and Latin American immigrants looking to go north for a better life and by all accounts would possibly receive a warmer welcome in the CSA than they would in the OTL South. So all in all the US is in very good shape and facing nothing like it did in Western Europe or worldwide like it did OTL post WW2. The US has no reason to tolerate any former Freedomites in positions of power -not in the CSA and certainly not in the international community such as it is in TL-191.
 
Another thing, One of the first ever blockbusters, Birth of the Nation from 1915 (One which has aged horribly) focuses heavily on Reconstruction. So this really makes me wonder what the first Blockbuster in TL 191 would be about. Seeing that the Union and Confederacy would be at war in 1915, I can see it being a Confederate Propaganda Film that focuses on the South's glorious victories in both the Mexican War and War of Secession. It could even still maintain it's name "Birth of a Nation."
D.W. Griffith can even direct it, as he was from Kentucky.

On the question of Expressionist films, maybe France fills that slot in this timeline? I could see the societal backlash from losing TWO wars against Germany leading to a degredation of "traditional values" which would in turn lead to the Actionists taking over due to the subsequent backlash from conservatives, much like the reactions of traditionalist Germans who saw such things as Art Deco, open Homosexuality, immigration and the seeming collapse of "Germanic" values during the Weimar era and supported Hitler.

The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, for example, could be about French Shell-Shock victims instead of German ones, and Lang's "Metropolis" could be translated as a French vision of a stratified future of haves and have-nots.
 
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MaxGerke01

Banned
Another thing, One of the first ever blockbusters, Birth of the Nation from 1915 (One which has aged horribly) focuses heavily on Reconstruction. So this really makes me wonder what the first Blockbuster in TL 191 would be about. Seeing that the Union and Confederacy would be at war in 1915, I can see it being a Confederate Propaganda Film that focuses on the South's glorious victories in both the Mexican War and War of Secession. It could even still maintain it's name "Birth of a Nation."
It could also be a US film that focuses on Remembrance America in some way to make it more analogous to Birth of a Nation. Perhaps it tells the story of John Brown and how right he and his sons were to fight the South before the War of Secession because they knew how bad it was ?
 
D.W. Griffith can even direct it, as he was from Kentucky.

On the question of Expressionist films, maybe France fills that slot in this timeline? I could see the societal backlash from losing TWO wars against Germany leading to a degredation of "traditional values" which would in turn lead to the Actionists taking over due to the subsequent backlash from conservatives, much like the reactions of traditionalist Germans who saw such things as Art Deco, open Homosexuality, immigration and the seeming collapse of "Germanic" values during the Weimar era and supported Hitler.

The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, for example, could be about French Shell-Shock victims instead of German ones, and Lang's "Metropolis" could be translated as a French vision of a stratified future of haves and have-nots.
Did a little more research, and it does seem that German Expressionism had it's start before WW1. The question here is how it would evolve differently under a victorious kaiserreich. I can still see something similar popping up in France though.
Capture.PNG
 
Another thing, One of the first ever blockbusters, Birth of the Nation from 1915 (One which has aged horribly) focuses heavily on Reconstruction. So this really makes me wonder what the first Blockbuster in TL 191 would be about. Seeing that the Union and Confederacy would be at war in 1915, I can see it being a Confederate Propaganda Film that focuses on the South's glorious victories in both the Mexican War and War of Secession. It could even still maintain it's name "Birth of a Nation."
IIRC someone in some thread, did adressed it, happened before the war but was that, the first Southern Epic and one was value is artistic merit, was about that, how family separated and how South born...yeah a little more in the soft propaganda side
 
Getting on the topic of Pop-Culture in TL 191, would German Expressionism still be a thing? How would German Cinema and literature be different in this world?

It depends on the butterfly effect, of course. For instance, IOTL, FW Murnau and Fritz Lang both served in WWI. Do they both survive the FGW?

German culture will be significantly different in the long term. Due to the country emerging victorious in two Great Wars, and with no Third Reich. There will not be the same exodus of artists, including filmmakers, from Germany abroad that occurred in our world. On the other hand, Germany will become one of the world’s great cultural centers; likely joined by Austria-Hungary in that regard.

Germany and Austria-Hungary may produce an analogue to film noir, though it would be called something else.

Even though the USA will not gain a huge German-speaking emigre artistic influx as in our world, US culture - especially filmmaking - would be influenced by the latest trends from Berlin, Vienna and Budapest.
 
I always did have a headcanon that Leni Riefenstahl is the German!Frank Capra of TL 191. While Frank Capra is on the mind, I am seriously wondering what the "Why we fight" series would be like ITTL. Also, maybe a parallel to how John Ford filmed the Battle of Midway could play out too.
 
I've thought about H.P Lovecraft serving in the United States Army during the First Great War. With the horrors of trench warfare influencing his later writings, creating a twisted landscape of rotting flesh, poisonous clouds and vines of hardwire. Later on adding in the horrors of super bombs and atomic radiation into a mix after witnessing the Confederate super bombing and its aftermath.
 
I've thought about H.P Lovecraft serving in the United States Army during the First Great War. With the horrors of trench warfare influencing his later writings, creating a twisted landscape of rotting flesh, poisonous clouds and vines of hardwire. Later on adding in the horrors of super bombs and atomic radiation into a mix after witnessing the Confederate super bombing and its aftermath.
A next generation Edgar Allan Poe would be on that way, now talking the futulity of war and how that is the human own abyss...
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
I've thought about H.P Lovecraft serving in the United States Army during the First Great War. With the horrors of trench warfare influencing his later writings, creating a twisted landscape of rotting flesh, poisonous clouds and vines of hardwire. Later on adding in the horrors of super bombs and atomic radiation into a mix after witnessing the Confederate super bombing and its aftermath.
With his noted OTl racism one wonders if in Tl-191 he has some kind of personal Confederate influence and also if he was popular in the CSA-? Not that you couldnt be racist in the US in Tl--191 during the early 20th Century but you know what I mean...
 
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