Admittedly I was thinking about the possibility of a reference to Cowboys & Aliens and the cigar UFO sitting in Texas from around the time period. Only I want to keep the technology "more or less" plausible... though What Madness is This did get away with Cthulhu so...
Not much at all, although it looks interesting
I haven't actually been much of a "gamer" since the days gaming consisted of either a) rolling dice and consulting the Holy Gygax Scriptures for insight or b) dropping a quarter (or a token) into the Sacred Machine, getting three lives, then you're dead
Not much at all, although it looks interesting
I haven't actually been much of a "gamer" since the days gaming consisted of either a) rolling dice and consulting the Holy Gygax Scriptures for insight or b) dropping a quarter (or a token) into the Sacred Machine, getting three lives, then you're dead
Was actually talking Weird West subgenre as a whole since both the Dark Tower book series and Deadlands tabletop can be taken as an example of it. I guess you can reference it considering all the weird paranormal, UFO and cryptid sightings that supposedly happen in real life (looking at you history and discovery channel) some of that stuff happening here wouldn't be to far of a stretch so long as it remains ambiguous if it really happened or not. (Also that reminds when I used to go to my local arcade and play Area 51 & Metal Slug before family pizza time.)
pattontank12, do you have specific setting ideas in mind when it comes to the topic of this thread? Do you want to create a TL as close to the Wild Wild West series as possible, without changing major points in history up until the Grant Administration of the USA? Or are you okay with the ideas I and others have thrown out about altering the course of the ACW among other things?
How about a Dr. Lovelace styled European nobleman who decided to build a city of tomorrow out west. After making his fortune with prosthetics based off of the iron hand of Gotz von Berlichingen following the American Civil War.
Actually speaking of Turtledove I do wonder if with a Confederate victory in a Difference Engine/TL-191 scenario the United States might ally with the German Empire or one that emerged earlier. In the face of British imperial ambition on the North American continent and political ties with the Confederacy.
The Difference Engine is making me think of the world developing various proto internets with mechanical computers inter linked via telegraph lines.
One idea I've had for "City of Tomorrow out west" would be if Yellowstone was not made into a national park. Then a large industrial city is built there with factories powered by geothermal energy. Then an anarchist uprising occurs in the city, and the anarchists make alliances with local tribal members of the Blackfoot, Shoshone, and Nez Perce.
Admittedly I was thinking about the possibility of a reference to Cowboys & Aliens and the cigar UFO sitting in Texas from around the time period. Only I want to keep the technology "more or less" plausible... though What Madness is This did get away with Cthulhu so...
I love Weird West settings. Joe R. Lansdale became on of my favorite authors after I read his Rev. Jebadiah Mercer series. I haven't got the chance to play Deadlands with anyone yet, but I love the setting, as well as the books that have been published set in its world. I also need to get around to reading the Jonah Hex horror western series of comics.
pattontank12, do you have specific setting ideas in mind when it comes to the topic of this thread? Do you want to create a TL as close to the Wild Wild West series as possible, without changing major points in history up until the Grant Administration of the USA? Or are you okay with the ideas I and others have thrown out about altering the course of the ACW among other things?
I'm honestly good with either direction though in general it looks like a pre ACW POD would be the best way to get an actual Wild Wild West. Currently I'm picturing the Civil War being somewhere between its OTL and WW1 in terms of technology and brutality. Eq
One idea I've had for "City of Tomorrow out west" would be if Yellowstone was not made into a national park. Then a large industrial city is built there with factories powered by geothermal energy. Then an anarchist uprising occurs in the city, and the anarchists make alliances with local tribal members of the Blackfoot, Shoshone, and Nez Perce.
While I'm not too crazy about loosing Yellowstone I love this idea! Plenty of places out west with naturally occurring hotsprings so plenty of potential for geothermal plants. As for the "City of Tomorrow out West" I'm thinking it was originally built by Chinese laborers in a very neoclassical-colonial style similar to the 1893 Chicago's world's fair, many of whom actually stayed after completion as industrial labor. With the anarchist behind the whole thing being a Dutch van der Linde outlaw who styled himself as a modern day Robin Hood figure before kickstarting his rebellion.
This reminds of a cool hashtag that was running on Twitter a couple years ago
Spoiler: #JurassicPark1854
pattontank12, do you have specific setting ideas in mind when it comes to the topic of this thread? Do you want to create a TL as close to the Wild Wild West series as possible, without changing major points in history up until the Grant Administration of the USA? Or are you okay with the ideas I and others have thrown out about altering the course of the ACW among other things?
One idea I've had for "City of Tomorrow out west" would be if Yellowstone was not made into a national park. Then a large industrial city is built there with factories powered by geothermal energy. Then an anarchist uprising occurs in the city, and the anarchists make alliances with local tribal members of the Blackfoot, Shoshone, and Nez Perce.
This reminds of a cool hashtag that was running on Twitter a couple years ago
I love Weird West settings. Joe R. Lansdale became on of my favorite authors after I read his Rev. Jebadiah Mercer series. I haven't got the chance to play Deadlands with anyone yet, but I love the setting, as well as the books that have been published set in its world. I also need to get around to reading the Jonah Hex horror western series of comics.
I'll have to check that out. Though still I kinda want to keep this scenario plausible in broad strokes so nothing outright supernatural or alien... though if you want to imply something is...
I want to throw out a few more ideas since my creative juices have really gotten flowing. So prepare for an info dump!
I remembered some more details about the history of steelmaking that I left out in my earlier posts, and I learned a few more details too after some research. Bessemer's process of steel-making is one of the major factors for the increase in steel production after his patenting the process in 1856, but there was some controversy if Bessemer deserved credit for inventing the process because an American inventor named William Kelly claimed to have developed the process two years earlier, with he himself having perhaps developed the process after learning about similar methods used in China from migrant workers at his company. Bessemer faced issues in perfecting his process when it came to removing phosphorous from the iron used, and controlling the process of oxidation. With the help of other metallurgists like Robert Mushet, he was able to solve these problems by mid 1858, and acheived a reliable production of steel by 1859. At the same time Kelly was working with the Cambria Iron Company in perfecting his own process after his own company went bankrupt in 1857. There seems to be a conflict in the information on the Wiki page about Kelly and the sources sited. With Wikipedia saying that Kelly sold the rights to his patent to Cambria in 1857, but the source Jstor saying that they bought the rights to use his process in 1861.
One of the industrialists using the Bessemer process by the early 1860s was John Brown, no not that John Brown, of Sheffield England. During the American Civil War he sold blockade running ships to the CSA and according to a document if found online shared the designs of a Bessemer converter with the CS Central Laboratory of Macon, Georgia by January 1865
During the same period Sir Carl Wilhelm Siemens was working on a design to save heat in industrial furnaces that would eventually evolve into the Open Hearth Furnace. Starting in 1857 with the help of his brother they developed a more efficient furnace design for making glass. Then Siemens split his focus more on electrical engineering . By 1861 he patented his furnace design and listed melting steel as one of its possible uses. By 1865 plants in Britain and France were producing steel using this process.
Another key feature to the rise of manufacturing in the late 1800s was experimentation with Tungsten alloys and how they lead to the invention of "Tool Steels" hard enough to machine other steel alloys. British engineer Robert Oxland first patented a process for making tungsten-steel alloy in 1857. Eleven years later the same Robert Mushet that helped in refining the Bessemer process invented a high-carbon-vanadium-manganese-tungsten steel called Mushet steel. According to the Wiki page on him, Rober Mushet did not receive any compensation for his help to Bessemer and was near poverty by 1866 until his 16 year old daughter Mary demanded compensation from Bessemer. Decades later large deposits of Tungsten would be found through out the Rocky Mountains. In 1942 a deposit was also found in Vance County, NC on land once held by Jefferson Davis's grandfather.
With all of this in mind I propose finding PODs that can condense periods of time between these series of events so as to effect the events of the ACW. Perhaps with much more industrial espionage involved. Lets say that the deposits of Tungsten along the North Carolina Virginia border is discovered sometime in the 1850s and a small mining operation begins there. Then Bessemer actually partners with Mushet and helps find his research leading him to take Oxlands process for Tungsten steel and use it to develop his own alloy years ahead of time by 1860, with knowledge of his process then being spread to American metallurgists. Then Siemens decides to focus less on electrical engineering between the years of 1857 to 1861 and refines his furnace design for steel making by 1859. With plants in Britain beginning to make using his process by 1860. Then in between 1858 to 1860 agents from the Tradeger Iron Works of Virginia, and perhaps smaller operations like that of the Schofield or Findlay Iron Works of Georgia, dedicate themselves to spying and stealing trade secrets from competition in the northern states and Britian. They learn of the advances of Kelly in Pennsyvania, as well as that of Mushot and Bessemer in Britian. With this information they then start building small Bessemer converters and open hearth furnaces at their plants of operation in 1860. The start of the ACW slows down development but steel production using these operations in VA and GA are started by 1862-63. First producing tool steels for use in manufacturing, and then steel for use in firearms, this leads to a boom in domesticaly produced weapons in the CSA. With operations like those of the revolver manufactures of Griswold & Gunnison and Spiller & Burr increasing several fold as they no longer have the same material shortages of OTL, nor have their revolver cylinders crack or explode when tested because they can use mild steel now instead of twisted iron.
These along with other factors can be incorporated into a CSA victory TL that has scenarios like that of TWWW.
Another good book that I recommend reading in order to flesh out the spy-craft side of things in a Wild Wild West scenario combined with a CSA TL would be "Confederate Saboteurs: Building the Hunley and Other Secret Weapons of the Civil War". It details the rise of the Confederate Secret service, in particular the section known as the Singer Secret Service Corps, led by Texan inventor and entrepreneur Edgar Collins Singer who designed exploding water torpedoes and was connected to other inventor's working for the confederates who helped build the Hunley Submarine among other things. I will admit that I am not sure how accurate some of the claims of the book are, because it gives details of the Hunley's construction that differ from other sources, and claims that Singer wanted to get an electrical powered engine for the submarine from a northern producer, but I know of no electrical powered engines of the time that could have provided the power to do so even if it was at only 2 knots. But it is a good read to learn about attempts some Confederate agents were making to invent new devices of war that could be ripe for ATL ideas.
Not much at all, although it looks interesting
I haven't actually been much of a "gamer" since the days gaming consisted of either a) rolling dice and consulting the Holy Gygax Scriptures for insight or b) dropping a quarter (or a token) into the Sacred Machine, getting three lives, then you're dead
Maybe Samurais travel to American Civil War as foreign military observers. Some of them fighting in the Union army. After the end of the Samrai War in Japan several Samurai travel the Amemerican West as Ronin.
I also think that scenarios like those from episodes of the Wild Wild West could be enabled if the lives of certain people were extended longer than what they lived in OTL.
First off Ada Lovelace. She would of course have likely made more advancements in mathematics and creating algorithms if she had not died at the age of 36 in 1852. Maybe then she could have also used her social connections to help Babbage actually get the funding he needed to build his Difference and Analytical engines before he died in 1871.
Isambard Kingdom_Brunel. A civil engineer who was considered one of the giants of the industrial revolution, built the first transatlantic ship driven by propeller, as well as designing bridges and railroads. If he hadn't died in in 1859 at age 53 he probably would have tried a lot of other expensive ideas out with the advances of metallurgy in the 1860s.
Thomas Dent Mutter. An American surgeon who was a pioneer in what we would now call plastic, or reconstructive, surgery. If he had not died at age 48 in 1859 he would have likely made further advancements in his field. With the ACW giving him great opportunities to do so.
Given that at least a couple episodes I remember from TWWW deal with Dr. Lovelace doing reconstructive surgery on people to make them look completely different, this would work out nicely. I also like the fact that in his first episode Dr. Lovelace explains that he discovered a fungus that can cure disease, penicillin, which also helps explain how he can do extensive surgeries on people without worries that they would die of an infection like most people in the 1800s.
Edgar Allan Poe. He died at age 40 in 1849 and I have read a few AH stories that imagine his life if he had lived longer. One I found most interesting was "No Spot of Ground" in which he becomes a Confederate General in the ACW. Another fun one is an TL in which he joins the Union army. I think Poe could have fallen on either side at the outbreak of the ACW. I suppose it would depend on who his friends were at the time.
I think that having him alive in a TL based on TWWW would be great for the spycraft parts of the scenario. You see I have had the idea that given Poe's skills and interest in cryptography, and the fact that he invented the detective story, he would make a great director of the Secret Service or some other center of intelligence. Spymaster Poe could take up the role of a J Edgar Hoover type of character in such a TL. Paranoid and gathering details on everyone for every reason imaginable. He is just mad enough to do it!
Frederick Townsend Ward. An American soldier of fortune who fought for the Qing during the Taiping Rebellion and died from a battle related wound in 1862 at age 30. He was a very interesting figure and I suggest reading the biography on him by Caleb Carr.
Given that the character James West knows martial arts, I think having an American with strong connections to China would encourage more immigration between the two countries with Americans also learning different styles of Kung fu.
I like to imagine that James West may have been a marine stationed in China during the Second Opium War who learned his martial arts skills while there.
Maybe Samurais travel to American Civil War as foreign military observers. Some of them fighting in the Union army. After the end of the Samrai War in Japan several Samurai travel the Amemerican West as Ronin.
I also suggest reading the Britannia's Fist Trilogy. An alternate history that imagine the British and French aiding the CSA, one of the great focuses in the books is the use of weapons technology during the war. With the POD leading the the Union adopting Coffee Mill and Gatling guns on a large scale, and supporting the building of airships. One of the features that I find most interesting though is that it also involves expanding the power of the Bureau of Military Information. In a post ACW CSA Victory TL I could see that organization having a similar set of responsibilities as the Secret Service as it exists in OTL and TWWW series
On the idea of a "City of Tomorrow out West" I'd suggest checking this video out. With vast stretches of the city being a grand display to what the people of the 19th century believed the future could be. Many of the world's best and brightest would be invited to push the boundaries of "modern" science. Of course it has its dark side...
While it wasn't invented during the wild west the Browning BLR certainly fits with the Wild Wild West considering it's a functioning lever action with a detachable box magazine.
To help give you more inspiration for that anarchist idea, there is a short AH story titled The Last Ride of German Freddie, with the POD being that Frederick Nietzsche immigrates to the American Southwest for his health. He then makes friends with the Cochise County Cowboys and takes sides with them in their conflict against the Earp brothers.
Another fun AH short story that fits into the same themes of The Wild Wild West is Custer's Last Jump. The story involves George Armstrong Custer and his paratroopers fighting against Crazy horse and his fighter pilots at the Little Bighorn. One of the cooler parts of the stories is that it includes a fictional bibliography, with one of the fact sources being titled "Franklin's Engine", implying that the POD of this TL is that Benjamin Franklin invented the internal combustion engine.
A POD akin to that with Benjamin Franklin or some other founding father like Jefferson inventing something, or making a discovery that could domino into some tech advancement earlier than in OTL may be a good way to go. Another good POD that could occur across the pond in Britain is if Henry Cavendish's research was actually read and shared by others earlier than the 1870s!
Funny you should mention Custer considering both the Forgotten No More and What Madness is This both have him has "President Evil". Perhaps here ends up causing the Great War or a second civil war through sheer horribleness.
I want to throw out a few more ideas since my creative juices have really gotten flowing. So prepare for an info dump!
I remembered some more details about the history of steelmaking that I left out in my earlier posts, and I learned a few more details too after some research. Bessemer's process of steel-making is one of the major factors for the increase in steel production after his patenting the process in 1856, but there was some controversy if Bessemer deserved credit for inventing the process because an American inventor named William Kelly claimed to have developed the process two years earlier, with he himself having perhaps developed the process after learning about similar methods used in China from migrant workers at his company. Bessemer faced issues in perfecting his process when it came to removing phosphorous from the iron used, and controlling the process of oxidation. With the help of other metallurgists like Robert Mushet, he was able to solve these problems by mid 1858, and acheived a reliable production of steel by 1859. At the same time Kelly was working with the Cambria Iron Company in perfecting his own process after his own company went bankrupt in 1857. There seems to be a conflict in the information on the Wiki page about Kelly and the sources sited. With Wikipedia saying that Kelly sold the rights to his patent to Cambria in 1857, but the source Jstor saying that they bought the rights to use his process in 1861.
One of the industrialists using the Bessemer process by the early 1860s was John Brown, no not that John Brown, of Sheffield England. During the American Civil War he sold blockade running ships to the CSA and according to a document if found online shared the designs of a Bessemer converter with the CS Central Laboratory of Macon, Georgia by January 1865
During the same period Sir Carl Wilhelm Siemens was working on a design to save heat in industrial furnaces that would eventually evolve into the Open Hearth Furnace. Starting in 1857 with the help of his brother they developed a more efficient furnace design for making glass. Then Siemens split his focus more on electrical engineering . By 1861 he patented his furnace design and listed melting steel as one of its possible uses. By 1865 plants in Britain and France were producing steel using this process.
Another key feature to the rise of manufacturing in the late 1800s was experimentation with Tungsten alloys and how they lead to the invention of "Tool Steels" hard enough to machine other steel alloys. British engineer Robert Oxland first patented a process for making tungsten-steel alloy in 1857. Eleven years later the same Robert Mushet that helped in refining the Bessemer process invented a high-carbon-vanadium-manganese-tungsten steel called Mushet steel. According to the Wiki page on him, Rober Mushet did not receive any compensation for his help to Bessemer and was near poverty by 1866 until his 16 year old daughter Mary demanded compensation from Bessemer. Decades later large deposits of Tungsten would be found through out the Rocky Mountains. In 1942 a deposit was also found in Vance County, NC on land once held by Jefferson Davis's grandfather.
With all of this in mind I propose finding PODs that can condense periods of time between these series of events so as to effect the events of the ACW. Perhaps with much more industrial espionage involved. Lets say that the deposits of Tungsten along the North Carolina Virginia border is discovered sometime in the 1850s and a small mining operation begins there. Then Bessemer actually partners with Mushet and helps find his research leading him to take Oxlands process for Tungsten steel and use it to develop his own alloy years ahead of time by 1860, with knowledge of his process then being spread to American metallurgists. Then Siemens decides to focus less on electrical engineering between the years of 1857 to 1861 and refines his furnace design for steel making by 1859. With plants in Britain beginning to make using his process by 1860. Then in between 1858 to 1860 agents from the Tradeger Iron Works of Virginia, and perhaps smaller operations like that of the Schofield or Findlay Iron Works of Georgia, dedicate themselves to spying and stealing trade secrets from competition in the northern states and Britian. They learn of the advances of Kelly in Pennsyvania, as well as that of Mushot and Bessemer in Britian. With this information they then start building small Bessemer converters and open hearth furnaces at their plants of operation in 1860. The start of the ACW slows down development but steel production using these operations in VA and GA are started by 1862-63. First producing tool steels for use in manufacturing, and then steel for use in firearms, this leads to a boom in domesticaly produced weapons in the CSA. With operations like those of the revolver manufactures of Griswold & Gunnison and Spiller & Burr increasing several fold as they no longer have the same material shortages of OTL, nor have their revolver cylinders crack or explode when tested because they can use mild steel now instead of twisted iron.
These along with other factors can be incorporated into a CSA victory TL that has scenarios like that of TWWW.
Another good book that I recommend reading in order to flesh out the spy-craft side of things in a Wild Wild West scenario combined with a CSA TL would be "Confederate Saboteurs: Building the Hunley and Other Secret Weapons of the Civil War". It details the rise of the Confederate Secret service, in particular the section known as the Singer Secret Service Corps, led by Texan inventor and entrepreneur Edgar Collins Singer who designed exploding water torpedoes and was connected to other inventor's working for the confederates who helped build the Hunley Submarine among other things. I will admit that I am not sure how accurate some of the claims of the book are, because it gives details of the Hunley's construction that differ from other sources, and claims that Singer wanted to get an electrical powered engine for the submarine from a northern producer, but I know of no electrical powered engines of the time that could have provided the power to do so even if it was at only 2 knots. But it is a good read to learn about attempts some Confederate agents were making to invent new devices of war that could be ripe for ATL ideas.
So we're in general agreement that earlier advancements in metallurgy and machine coding eventually leading to the later half of the 19th century becoming steampunk?
I also think that scenarios like those from episodes of the Wild Wild West could be enabled if the lives of certain people were extended longer than what they lived in OTL.
First off Ada Lovelace. She would of course have likely made more advancements in mathematics and creating algorithms if she had not died at the age of 36 in 1852. Maybe then she could have also used her social connections to help Babbage actually get the funding he needed to build his Difference and Analytical engines before he died in 1871.
Isambard Kingdom_Brunel. A civil engineer who was considered one of the giants of the industrial revolution, built the first transatlantic ship driven by propeller, as well as designing bridges and railroads. If he hadn't died in in 1859 at age 53 he probably would have tried a lot of other expensive ideas out with the advances of metallurgy in the 1860s.
Edgar Allan Poe. He died at age 40 in 1849 and I have read a few AH stories that imagine his life if he had lived longer. One I found most interesting was "No Spot of Ground" in which he becomes a Confederate General in the ACW. Another fun one is an TL in which he joins the Union army. I think Poe could have fallen on either side at the outbreak of the ACW. I suppose it would depend on who his friends were at the time.
I think that having him alive in a TL based on TWWW would be great for the spycraft parts of the scenario. You see I have had the idea that given Poe's skills and interest in cryptography, and the fact that he invented the detective story, he would make a great director of the Secret Service or some other center of intelligence. Spymaster Poe could take up the role of a J Edgar Hoover type of character in such a TL. Paranoid and gathering details on everyone for every reason imaginable. He is just mad enough to do it!
Thomas Dent Mutter. An American surgeon who was a pioneer in what we would now call plastic, or reconstructive, surgery. If he had not died at age 48 in 1859 he would have likely made further advancements in his field. With the ACW giving him great opportunities to do so.
Given that at least a couple episodes I remember from TWWW deal with Dr. Lovelace doing reconstructive surgery on people to make them look completely different, this would work out nicely. I also like the fact that in his first episode Dr. Lovelace explains that he discovered a fungus that can cure disease, penicillin, which also helps explain how he can do extensive surgeries on people without worries that they would die of an infection like most people in the 1800s.
Actually considering how comparatively easy sulfa drugs are to produce perhaps it was discovered early on at some point in the 19th century. Leading improved mortality rates and an even greater population boom during the 19th century, which had the nock on effect of medical science advancing way ahead of OTL.
Frederick Townsend Ward.An American soldier of fortune who fought for the Qing during the Taiping Rebellion and died from a battle related wound in 1862 at age 30. He was a very interesting figure and I suggest reading the biography on him by Caleb Carr.
Given that the character James West knows martial arts, I think having an American with strong connections to China would encourage more immigration between the two countries with Americans also learning different styles of Kung fu.
I like to imagine that James West may have been a marine stationed in China during the Second Opium War who learned his martial arts skills while there.
Combine that with the earlier idea of there being greater Chinese immigration to the USA during the 19th century to work on the railroads. Do to there being less free blacks available thanks to the hypothetical Confederate victory and we could see greater Chinese cultural influence in the west.
While it wasn't invented during the wild west the Browning BLR certainly fits with the Wild Wild West considering it's a functioning lever action with a detachable box magazine.
Funny you should mention Custer considering both the Forgotten No More and What Madness is This both have him has "President Evil". Perhaps here ends up causing the Great War or a second civil war through sheer horribleness.
The Browning BLR Is a very Steampunky-gun, especially if you see the gear tooth system inside. With guns like that I wish some companies would make sides plates made of Pyrex or fiber glass so you can see how the insides of the gun works while you use it. There are a lot of other cool weapons that could have been made with 19th century tech. Check out Forgotten Weapons on youtube. Other ideas I have had are the toggle actions of the Winchester rifle and Morse carbine inspiring other toggle locked designs like those in Biathlon rifles. Revolving rifles could have also been more popular in the 1800s if they had solved the issue of gas from the cylinder gap hurting the shooter by using a design like that of the modern Rossi Circuit Judge rifle. Designs like that of the Nagant gas seal revolver and Pieper revolving carbine with their necked brass cartridge design could have also been invented earlier too. I'd like to imagine that if the Savage Revolving Firearms company had actually been more successful then they could have done so.
So we're in general agreement that earlier advancements in metallurgy and machine coding eventually leading to the later half of the 19th century becoming steampunk?
Actually considering how comparatively easy sulfa drugs are to produce perhaps it was discovered early on at some point in the 19th century. Leading improved mortality rates and an even greater population boom during the 19th century, which had the nock on effect of medical science advancing way ahead of OTL.
Combine that with the earlier idea of there being greater Chinese immigration to the USA during the 19th century to work on the railroads. Do to there being less free blacks available thanks to the hypothetical Confederate victory and we could see greater Chinese cultural influence in the west.
Yes, I'm in agreement on that. Sorry, I know you said that before but I wanted to go into detail. These are all things I want to include in a TL of my own so I figured I'd use here as practice in sorting out the details.
Sulfa drugs are another good option. The first sulfa drug Prontosil was made as a red Azo dye in 1932 and later included in a study to see if dyes may have medical properties. Since the first artificial dye was made in 1856, and the first Azo dye was made in 1862, then maybe circumstances could have lead to the invention of Prontosil and the discovery of sulfa drugs much earlier. Another antibacterial drug that could have been produced in the 1800s is Leptospermum/Mānuka Honey. It is made from the Leptospermum plant native to Australia and New Zealand by European honey bees. It aids in both killing bacteria on wounds and sloughing away dead skin. I have personal experience in using it to treat my late father's bed sores. Its antibaterial properties were only understood until the 1980s, but some sources say that Moari people of New Zealand had used it as medicaine before then. Since European honey bees were introduced in Australia as early as the 1820s and New Zealand in the 1830s its medical properties could have been understood and spread through out the world much sooner.
I could just see a Snake Oil Salesman pitching Manuka Honey to a crowd "Behold! The Medical Wonder from Down Under!"
Another cool POD I have thought of for advances in antibacterial wound care revolves around the Battle of Shiloh. After the battle some wounded soldiers and their doctors found that their wounds glowed blue and healed better than expected. Modern research concluded that their wounds had been infected with Photorhabdus luminescens, a bio-luminescent bacteria that produces compounds that kill other bacteria that are more harmful to the human body. I'd like to imagine some Civil War surgeon deciding to take a sample of this glowing goo from a soldier's wound, looking at it under a microscope, discovering what it is and the possibilities it has, and then going on a Mad Scientist bend deciding to keep samples alive so that he can purposefully infect others with it.
Combine that with the earlier idea of there being greater Chinese immigration to the USA during the 19th century to work on the railroads. Do to there being less free blacks available thanks to the hypothetical Confederate victory and we could see greater Chinese cultural influence in the west.
You might achieve that too if the Taiping Rebellion went differently. Much of the immigration from China in the 1850-60s was due to escaping the war torn areas of southern China. About 20 Million died due to the war and famines caused by it. So just imagine if more of those people avoided starvation and managed to immigrate to the USA isntead.
Ideas about the Taiping pulling a Meiji is a cool idea for a WWW scenario too. One of the leaders of the rebellion, Hong Rengan, wanted to industrialize China and had a collection of mass produced items, including a colt revolver, that he wanted to see made in China one day. I'd like to imagine a TL in which the Taiping successfully take control of Southern China and secede from the Qing controlled northern part. Then we would have a Waring States scenario in the late 1800s
This all reminds me of the episodes of TWWW involving Chinese crime clans in California, and the one with a doctor from China who discovered a bacteria that paralyzes people for a short period of time. I have only seen the first couple seasons of the show though. I need to see more!
The Browning BLR Is a very Steampunky-gun, especially if you see the gear tooth system inside. With guns like that I wish some companies would make sides plates made of Pyrex or fiber glass so you can see how the insides of the gun works while you use it. There are a lot of other cool weapons that could have been made with 19th century tech. Check out Forgotten Weapons on youtube. Other ideas I have had are the toggle actions of the Winchester rifle and Morse carbine inspiring other toggle locked designs like those in Biathlon rifles. Revolving rifles could have also been more popular in the 1800s if they had solved the issue of gas from the cylinder gap hurting the shooter by using a design like that of the modern Rossi Circuit Judge rifle. Designs like that of the Nagant gas seal revolver and Pieper revolving carbine with their necked brass cartridge design could have also been invented earlier too. I'd like to imagine that if the Savage Revolving Firearms company had actually been more successful then they could have done so.
It's definitely interesting to wonder what kind of weapons could be produced in the 19th century with some improved materials and designs. If machines did get adopted in mass during the civil war I could see them being called "grinders" do to the hand crank mechanism of the gatling and gardner guns, that resembled those of coffee grinders.
Yes, I'm in agreement on that. Sorry, I know you said that before but I wanted to go into detail. These are all things I want to include in a TL of my own so I figured I'd use here as practice in sorting out the details.
Sulfa drugs are another good option. The first sulfa drug Prontosil was made as a red Azo dye in 1932 and later included in a study to see if dyes may have medical properties. Since the first artificial dye was made in 1856, and the first Azo dye was made in 1862, then maybe circumstances could have lead to the invention of Prontosil and the discovery of sulfa drugs much earlier. Another antibacterial drug that could have been produced in the 1800s is Leptospermum/Mānuka Honey. It is made from the Leptospermum plant native to Australia and New Zealand by European honey bees. It aids in both killing bacteria on wounds and sloughing away dead skin. I have personal experience in using it to treat my late father's bed sores. Its antibaterial properties were only understood until the 1980s, but some sources say that Moari people of New Zealand had used it as medicaine before then. Since European honey bees were introduced in Australia as early as the 1820s and New Zealand in the 1830s its medical properties could have been understood and spread through out the world much sooner.
I could just see a Snake Oil Salesman pitching Manuka Honey to a crowd "Behold! The Medical Wonder from Down Under!"
Another cool POD I have thought of for advances in antibacterial wound care revolves around the Battle of Shiloh. After the battle some wounded soldiers and their doctors found that their wounds glowed blue and healed better than expected. Modern research concluded that their wounds had been infected with Photorhabdus luminescens, a bio-luminescent bacteria that produces compounds that kill other bacteria that are more harmful to the human body. I'd like to imagine some Civil War surgeon deciding to take a sample of this glowing goo from a soldier's wound, looking at it under a microscope, discovering what it is and the possibilities it has, and then going on a Mad Scientist bend deciding to keep samples alive so that he can purposefully infect others with it.
Combine these ideas and the field of medical science could be revolutionized in the decades following the civil war. Which could lead to the population explosion of the 19th century being even larger. You can bet a lot of Civil War veterans wish effective antibiotics were available during the war.
You might achieve that too if the Taiping Rebellion went differently. Much of the immigration from China in the 1850-60s was due to escaping the war torn areas of southern China. About 20 Million died due to the war and famines caused by it. So just imagine if more of those people avoided starvation and managed to immigrate to the USA isntead.
Ideas about the Taiping pulling a Meiji is a cool idea for a WWW scenario too. One of the leaders of the rebellion, Hong Rengan, wanted to industrialize China and had a collection of mass produced items, including a colt revolver, that he wanted to see made in China one day. I'd like to imagine a TL in which the Taiping successfully take control of Southern China and secede from the Qing controlled northern part. Then we would have a Waring States scenario in the late 1800s
This all reminds me of the episodes of TWWW involving Chinese crime clans in California, and the one with a doctor from China who discovered a bacteria that paralyzes people for a short period of time. I have only seen the first couple seasons of the show though. I need to see more!
Man I REALLY like that dirigible design... what's that from?
For maybe of an idea of what a rigid airship would look like had there been a more protracted period of development, the early F. von Zeppelin designs may be a good indication, like his pre-war passenger zeps, with their "box-kite" type control surfaces and such...
It's definitely interesting to wonder what kind of weapons could be produced in the 19th century with some improved materials and designs. If machines did get adopted in mass during the civil war I could see them being called "grinders" do to the hand crank mechanism of the gatling and gardner guns, that resembled those of coffee grinders.
Combine these ideas and the field of medical science could be revolutionized in the decades following the civil war. Which could lead to the population explosion of the 19th century being even larger. You can bet a lot of Civil War veterans wish effective antibiotics were available during the war.
Combine that with the idea of Japanese samurai coming out west and the old west could get even more interesting.
Wonder what Europe would look like in this universe compared to America and the Wild West.
Man I REALLY like that dirigible design... what's that from?
For maybe of an idea of what a rigid airship would look like had there been a more protracted period of development, the early F. von Zeppelin designs may be a good indication, like his pre-war passenger zeps, with their "box-kite" type control surfaces and such...
I've seen that airship design online before. I reverse image searched for it and found it on pinterest with a source link to another site that sadly no longer works.
The design of airship that I think look even better than Zeppelin's wear those designed by Enrico Forlanini. They were of a semi-rigid design with an almost boat-hull-shaped gondala and some even had wings which could also classify them as a hybrid airship design.
The Gardner gun is a cool machine gun design from that era too. An even more Steampunky evolution of the Gardner design was the Nepalese Bira Gun built in the 1890s
I like that western scene painting. One thing I would change is that instead of horses that wagon could be pulled by a pair of Zadoc_Dederick's Steam Men. The Steam Man was a humanoid machine patented by Dederick in 1868 (with his patent sadly having the robot resemble a racist caricature of a black man), with a steam engine forming the torso and driving a leg mechanism in order to pull a cart. He was unable to build an affordable model and so the idea didn't catch on except in Dime Novels. I imagine he could have made it succesful with a more advanced boiler design. Like a mono-tube boiler or those of a Sentinel or Yorkshire steam wagon. Then maybe he could have made the leg mechanism more efficient by creating a design more like that of Theo Jansen's Strandbeasts. Then we could see people hooking up steam robots to pull wagons, rickshaws, and chariots!
I also found a source that suggests we could have gotten closer to having airplanes than we did in OTL. A Frenchman named Alphonse Pénaud came up with plans for an airplane that where ahead of their time. He was unable to get funding to build a prototype though and committed suicide in 1880. Toys based on his design went on though to inspire the Wright brothers. Maybe if he had not committed suicide and ended up meeting Hiram Maxim during the later's visit to Europe then they could have teamed up to make Maxim's attempts at building a flying machine a success!
That looks awesome! The American Frontier book looks especially helpful for this scenario. As for the steampunk tech I'd imagine it would have some interesting effects on the Great Game between Britain and Russia.
I've seen that airship design online before. I reverse image searched for it and found it on pinterest with a source link to another site that sadly no longer works.
The design of airship that I think look even better than Zeppelin's wear those designed by Enrico Forlanini. They were of a semi-rigid design with an almost boat-hull-shaped gondala and some even had wings which could also classify them as a hybrid airship design.
Now that is a marvelous work of flying machine designs right there good sir! Though seriously that looks like it came straight out of bioshock Infinite and I love it. Could be a solid alternative to the Zeppelin design.
The Gardner gun is a cool machine gun design from that era too. An even more Steampunky evolution of the Gardner design was the Nepalese Bira Gun built in the 1890s
Both of which would be perfect for a Wild Wild West.
I like that western scene painting. One thing I would change is that instead of horses that wagon could be pulled by a pair of Zadoc_Dederick's Steam Men. The Steam Man was a humanoid machine patented by Dederick in 1868 (with his patent sadly having the robot resemble a racist caricature of a black man), with a steam engine forming the torso and driving a leg mechanism in order to pull a cart. He was unable to build an affordable model and so the idea didn't catch on except in Dime Novels. I imagine he could have made it succesful with a more advanced boiler design. Like a mono-tube boiler or those of a Sentinel or Yorkshire steam wagon. Then maybe he could have made the leg mechanism more efficient by creating a design more like that of Theo Jansen's Strandbeasts. Then we could see people hooking up steam robots to pull wagons, rickshaws, and chariots!
I also found a source that suggests we could have gotten closer to having airplanes than we did in OTL. A Frenchman named Alphonse Pénaud came up with plans for an airplane that where ahead of their time. He was unable to get funding to build a prototype though and committed suicide in 1880. Toys based on his design went on though to inspire the Wright brothers. Maybe if he had not committed suicide and ended up meeting Hiram Maxim during the later's visit to Europe then they could have teamed up to make Maxim's attempts at building a flying machine a success!
Actually both of those could be a bit more possible if you factor in the idea of Doble styled steam engines being created in the 1870's... which actually wouldn't be to far of a stretch considering the earlier advancements in mechanics and metallurgy. Also I'd suggest checking out the Frank Reade dime novel series that were first published in the 1870's.
Wonder what Mark Twain and Nikola Tesla will be getting up to in this universe.
You just know someone had to of had a lot of money, serious determination and sheer resourcefulness to pull it off.
That looks awesome! The American Frontier book looks especially helpful for this scenario. As for the steampunk tech I'd imagine it would have some interesting effects on the Great Game between Britain and Russia.
Now that is a marvelous work of flying machine designs right there good sir! Though seriously that looks like it came straight out of bioshock Infinite and I love it. Could be a solid alternative to the Zeppelin design.
Both of which would be perfect for a Wild Wild West.
Actually both of those could be a bit more possible if you factor in the idea of Doble styled steam engines being created in the 1870's... which actually wouldn't be to far of a stretch considering the earlier advancements in mechanics and metallurgy. Also I'd suggest checking out the Frank Reade dime novel series that were first published in the 1870's.
Wonder what Mark Twain and Nikola Tesla will be getting up to in this universe.
I'd like to imagine a scenario in which large city buildings have airship docks for small private airships, just like how some buildings have helicopter pads. Reminds me a bit of the cityscape from Ghosts of Manhattan by George Mann
The Steampunk soldier series is very fun. There is no real plot, its more a history book to an ATL. The POD is ASB (Meteorites strike Earth containing a substances that burns hotter than coal and can be refined into performance enhancing drugs), besides that a lot of the stuff in the book comes off as relatively plausible or at least possible.
Another type of machine gun that could have caught on in OTL with a but more funding was the Bailey Machine gun. The first Gatling-type gun I know of that used belt fed ammunition
Twain and Tesla? Maybe forming a less ASB version of The Five Fists of Science! Que theme music based on AC/DC's TNT but with the lyrics changed to T&T (Tesla & Twain)
Now one bit of technology used in TWWW that I would like to address is the record player! In several episodes we see characters using a Phonograph, even though it would not exist in the form presented until the 1890s. Now a quick read of Wikipedia states that there was a sound recording device invented in 1857, but it was the work of Thomas Edison that lead to a sound playing device in 1877. I need to figure out what specific discoveries would need to be made to speed that timeline up so that we could have record players in the 1870s. Not necessarily those with discs made of shellac, but maybe wax cylinders like the early forms of phonograph.
