AHC: An actual Wild Wild West

I think the rise of Diesalpunk tech and use of the internal combustion engine could be curtailed given the right circumstances. I imagine that if monotube style boilers heated by liquid fuels with efficiency levels comparable to those made by Doble were created and popularized in the 1870s, then by the time efficient internal combustion engines were invented in the late 1890s of OTL, there would already be a lot of infrastructure dedicated to the use of these monotube style engines. So there would be a bias against the adoption of the internal combustion engine. Just like the oil and auto industries of OTL, such companies in this TL would have an investment bias towards the technology they had already invested so much money and infrastructure into producing, and would likely try to secure their share of the market by sabotaging any possible threat of an up and coming company trying to sell combustion engines or vehicles that run on them. So Steampunk style tech could continue with a large presence for decades longer simply due to socio-economic reasons.
Possibly I'm just thinking that in universe the 1890's would look less like the "Gay 90's" of OTL and more like that of WW1 and the Roaring twenties. At least back east and the industrial center of America, being best described as a mesh of steampunk and dieselpunk.
 
Possibly I'm just thinking that in universe the 1890's would look less like the "Gay 90's" of OTL and more like that of WW1 and the Roaring twenties. At least back east and the industrial center of America, being best described as a mesh of steampunk and dieselpunk.
I'm also curious how this may alter other industries in such a TL. If liquid fueled steam engines become popular by the 1800s, a time when petroleum mining and refining was in its infancy, we may see alternatives such as corn based alcohol become the more available and thus preferred choice. We may then see large crop producing companies form that lead to an earlier rise of industrial farming.

A world with Roaring Twenties style technology combined with Gay 90's fashion sounds really cool to me! Unless some factors lead to fashion changes akin to the 20s but earlier, such as war induced textile shortages and Women's suffrage. Or advances in the chemistry for the manufacture of polymer based materials for use in clothing such as Nylon
 
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I'm also curious how this may alter other industries in such a TL. If liquid fueled steam engines become popular by the 1800s, a time when petroleum mining and refining was in its infancy, we may see alternatives such as corn based alcohol become the more available and thus preferred choice. We may then see large crop producing companies form that lead to an earlier rise of industrial farming.

A world with Roaring Twenties style technology combined with Gay 90's fashion sounds really cool to me! Unless some factors lead to fashion changes akin to the 20s but earlier, such as war induced textile shortages and Women's suffrage. Or advances in the chemistry for the manufacture of polymer based materials for use in clothing such as Nylon
Well there was already kerosene being used during the 19th century first being made from coal before moving over to oil, in later decades. As for industrialized farming there were various steam tractors during the late 19th century that could have a big inpact if introduced earlier.

Yeah I was thinking of Gilded Age/1890's fashion blended with 1910 & 20s tech.
 
Another factor that should be addressed to help build a Steampunk TL is manufacturing technology. From my studies of the history of manufacturing the biggest advances in manufacturing were made by John Hall at Harpers Ferry in the early 1800s with his development of precision tools, gauges, and pass/go methods of manufacturing interchangeable parts on mass for the first time in recorded history. His methods were then later spread through out the east coast of the united states leading to the large manufacturing base that helped the Union win the Civil War against the rebelling southern states.

Now I imagine that a Steampunk TL would be more plausible of machining tools and manufacturing technology was advanced further and spread more widely at an earlier period than in OTL. Which could be made easier with the advances in metallurgy that I mentioned in an earlier post. I'd like to draw attention to mobile machine shops in WW2 that fit into the back of trucks, and modern ones that fit into industrial containers. If such small and mobile machine shop setups could be made available in the 1800s and portable by train car, steam powered truck, or boat, then we could see a boom in custom made Steampunk tech comparable to the modern Maker's movement thanks to 3D printers
 
For that extra steampunk touch in the Confed-Union Cold War, give the Confeds a souped-up version of the Winans Steam Gun. Also, let the confeds be the "submarine power" of this Cold War, like the Soviets were in our Cold War. I.e., the Confeds get souped-up, improved versions of the Hunley. Maybe ones capable of firing 19th century incendiary rockets at enemy targets, launched semi-vertically from hatches after the submarines surface. XD With the steam guns and incendiary rockets, the Confeds will also have steamwagon katyushas ! If you felt TL-191 had some silly Confederate tech-wankery, you ain't seen nothin' yet. :p

There should be freed and escaped slave resistance cells, supported and financed by the Union to wreck havoc in their great southern enemy. Some confeds would be like Afghan vets, LOL.

Also, lever-action rifles, good as they are, are kind of boring. For that extra steampunk flavour, maybe a cheaper alternative to them, used by some people, would be harmonica rifles. I don't know about you, but they always struck me as rather steampunky in terms of appearance and how their mechanism and magazine frame worked. Also, also, air rifles were actually quite advanced in the 19th century, including some repeater versions. Maybe you could use these for stealthy precision-sniping ? Otherwise, the Springfield and the Sharps cartridge rifles would be the Dragunovs or Accuracy International AWM of their day. Add some steampunk accessories, and you might get Victorian or Gilded Age equivalents of "tacticool". ;) :D



Legend was often referred to, even at the time, as something of a spiritual successor to The Wild Wild West, sans the espionage genre elements.

A few years ago, I wrote a brief parody of it and the WWW franchise, with a Persian adventurer/spymaster and his Italian inventor buddy, solving crimes and busting nefarious villains in Renaissance era Europe. The title was the same, but it was a reference to the Persian character's initial disdain for Europe as a less civilised place, the "Wild Wild West" from his Persian perspective. ;) (And yes, the spoof included a send-up of the 1999 film, giant clockwork scorpion, "younger n' hipper" approach and bad reception as an overproduced remake included. The rap number in period Persian was well-received, though. :p)
You like harmonica guns huh? Then you may like the Spaghetti Western "Adios, Sabata" as much as I do


I hadn't heard about "Legend" until reading about it in this thread. I will have to watch it now. I just bought the episodes to watch on Youtube. Thank you

Another "Steampunk-ish" show that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet is "Murdoch Mysteries". It is one of my favorite shows and is still running after 12 years. It revolves around a police detective in Toronto, Ontario who in his investigations uses the most advanced technology of his day to solve crimes, as well as often invents new technology that is ahead of its time. Except for a few episodes most of the technology presented in the series is plausible. Many of my favorite episodes involve Detective Murdoch meeting historical figures like Nikola Tesla. There is even one episode in which he works with Alexander Graham Belle to invent sonar.
2MediaCentre_ProgramHeader_MurdochMysteriesS13_750x360.jpg
 
You like harmonica guns huh? Then you may like the Spaghetti Western "Adios, Sabata" as much as I do

Ai, caramba ! Gracias, señor.

I hadn't heard about "Legend" until reading about it in this thread. I will have to watch it now. I just bought the episodes to watch on Youtube. Thank you

It's a rather nice show.

Another "Steampunk-ish" show that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet is "Murdoch Mysteries". It is one of my favorite shows and is still running after 12 years. It revolves around a police detective in Toronto, Ontario who in his investigations uses the most advanced technology of his day to solve crimes, as well as often invents new technology that is ahead of its time. Except for a few episodes most of the technology presented in the series is plausible. Many of my favorite episodes involve Detective Murdoch meeting historical figures like Nikola Tesla. There is even one episode in which he works with Alexander Graham Belle to invent sonar.

I had no idea anyone would bring it up in connection to WWW. After all, it's more of an Edwardian era setting. They did have a few Western themed episodes in some of the seasons. Fun cast, I particularly love Dr. Ogden and George.
 
The problem with steampunk is that it generally requires materials and machining tolerances many decades past what was available. Cast iron steam engines cannot keep a wooden rotor helicopter in flight. Brass gears and paper punchcards cannot sustain megahertz or even kilohertz processor speeds. Lead acid batteries cannot power a laser or even a window unit air-conditioner. Etc.
 
You like harmonica guns huh? Then you may like the Spaghetti Western "Adios, Sabata" as much as I do


I hadn't heard about "Legend" until reading about it in this thread. I will have to watch it now. I just bought the episodes to watch on Youtube. Thank you

Another "Steampunk-ish" show that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet is "Murdoch Mysteries". It is one of my favorite shows and is still running after 12 years. It revolves around a police detective in Toronto, Ontario who in his investigations uses the most advanced technology of his day to solve crimes, as well as often invents new technology that is ahead of its time. Except for a few episodes most of the technology presented in the series is plausible. Many of my favorite episodes involve Detective Murdoch meeting historical figures like Nikola Tesla. There is even one episode in which he works with Alexander Graham Belle to invent sonar. View attachment 580231
Welp I definitely have a new show to binge watch, thanks for sharing. I'm guessing that the wild west in a way would be a microcosm of a wider steampunk 19th century... man the colonial wars of this era must be even more one sided than OTL.
 
The problem with steampunk is that it generally requires materials and machining tolerances many decades past what was available. Cast iron steam engines cannot keep a wooden rotor helicopter in flight. Brass gears and paper punchcards cannot sustain megahertz or even kilohertz processor speeds. Lead acid batteries cannot power a laser or even a window unit air-conditioner. Etc.
Agreed, thats why I talked about different advances in materials science and manufacturing in my earlier posts. Another helpful POD would be discovering large deposits of specific materials for mining earlier than in OTL. Such as the large deposits of copper and iron ore in the western USA that were not found until the 20th century.
Welp I definitely have a new show to binge watch, thanks for sharing. I'm guessing that the wild west in a way would be a microcosm of a wider steampunk 19th century... man the colonial wars of this era must be even more one sided than OTL.
Exactly my thoughts. One cool book that I'm also surprised no one has mentioned yet is The Difference Engine. It was published in 1990 so much like The Wild Wild West it was Steampunk before Steampunk had a name. The POD involves Charles Babbage completing his Difference Engine in 1824 and Lord Byron surviving the war in Greece and leading a political party in favor of radical industrialization. When the plot starts about three decades later the British Empire is more powerful than in OTL. In the specific case of North America, the areas of modern day New Mexico and Arizona are still held by Mexico, both Texas and California are independent republics, and the southern states have already seceded as the CSA. Not to mention that Manhattan is now and independent Commune. The plot of the story takes place in London, but is ripe for Wild West style scenarios. Especially given the fact that the plot involves a conspiracy revolving around Sam Houston in political exile, and the British sending paleontological expeditions into the western territories .

World of The Difference Engine 1855 2.jpg


I think that in order to have a "Wild West" we would need to have greater conflict over the western half of North American than in OTL. Which should involve POD's around the Mexican-American War or the ACW. With the USA, Mexico, and/or CSA competing over resources and territory and using the native tribes as their proxies in many cases. Maybe even through in a conflict between the USA and Britain with a war in the western territory of Canada, just like in Turtledove's "How Few Remain" or the ending of "The Guns of The South".

After that there are also plenty of opportunities for "Western" style stories set in South America. The movie Blackthron showed me how rich of a setting that can be. Imagine a much larger Pacific War that in OTL. Or a scenario in which Bolivia keeps the Atacama desert to mine for nitrates, but there are still constant skirmishes along the border with a three way conflict between Bolivians, Chileans, and Peruvians.
 
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pattontank12 maybe you or the others on this thread can help me with some research of my own. Has anyone here heard of Jehu Hollingsworth and Ralph S. Mershon? Between the 1850s and 60s they patented different designs for revolvers that were powered by coiled clockwork springs. A bit has already been written about the prototype they made for a self cocking Colt 1860. There is another example of one of their guns that there is sadly less information about, and that is a rifle that appears to be based on one of the patents they took out in 1855. The oldest source I can find about this gun is a blogspot post from 2008 and there appears to be little more information out there than what is held in that post. There is only one image available of it online, but it appears to be a scan of a colored photograph from either a book or a museum article. I would pay money to find out the origins of this image and what source to find it in. I can find few books that it may be from since their are few on GoogleBooks that make mention of Mershon and Hollingsworth. I just ordered a copy of "Firearms Curiosa" so I am hoping that it may be the source I'm looking for. Can anyone help me solve this mystery?


Mershon Hollingsworth rifle.jpg


Also, if you are curious about more unusual historical firearms then I highly suggest reading through the list made on ShipWreckLibrary for the Deadlands RPG
 
Agreed, thats why I talked about different advances in materials science and manufacturing in my earlier posts. Another helpful POD would be discovering large deposits of specific materials for mining earlier than in OTL. Such as the large deposits of copper and iron ore in the western USA that were not found until the 20th century.

Exactly my thoughts. One cool book that I'm also surprised no one has mentioned yet is The Difference Engine. It was published in 1990 so much like The Wild Wild West it was Steampunk before Steampunk had a name. The POD involves Charles Babbage completing his Difference Engine in 1824 and Lord Byron surviving the war in Greece and leading a political party in favor of radical industrialization. When the plot starts about three decades later the British Empire is more powerful than in OTL. In the specific case of North America, the areas of modern day New Mexico and Arizona are still held by Mexico, both Texas and California are independent republics, and the southern states have already seceded as the CSA. Not to mention that Manhattan is now and independent Commune. The plot of the story takes place in London, but is ripe for Wild West style scenarios. Especially given the fact that the plot involves a conspiracy revolving around Sam Houston in political exile, and the British sending paleontological expeditions into the western territories .

View attachment 580240

I think that in order to have a "Wild West" we would need to have greater conflict over the western half of North American than in OTL. Which should involve POD's around the Mexican-American War or the ACW. With the USA, Mexico, and/or CSA competing over resources and territory and using the native tribes as their proxies in many cases. Maybe even through in a conflict between the USA and Britain with a war in the western territory of Canada, just like in Turtledove's "How Few Remain" or the ending of "The Guns of The South".

After that there are also plenty of opportunities for "Western" style stories set in South America. The movie Blackthron showed me how rich of a setting that can be. Imagine a much larger Pacific War that in OTL. Or a scenario in which Bolivia keeps the Atacama desert to mine for nitrates, but there are still constant skirmishes along the border with a three way conflict between Bolivians, Chileans, and Peruvians.
In general it looks like we're all in agreement about earlier breakthroughs in material science and machine tooling leading more technologically advanced version of the 19th century. Which could be best described as the Wild West meets The Difference Engine, with some Bioshock Infinite and Red Dead Redemption thrown in.

Earlier I did mention the idea of an independent California ruled by Emperor Norton as Parliamentary Monarchy. As for Texas maybe it eventually broke off from the Confederacy after the equivalent of World War 1, with some parallels to Polish-Soviet war?

Why am I picturing a frontier outlaw turning anarchist revolutionary and kickstarting a massive anarchist uprising across North America?
 
Basically The Wild Wild West was a popular television series that ran from 1965 to 69, taking place nearly a century in the past during the Grant Administration. Following the exploits of the Secret Service agents James West and Artemus Gordon as they traveled across the west, often encountering technology far ahead of their time. Noticeably a few decades later two other television series would appear in the 90's with similar premises Legend featuring Richard Dean Anderson (which also took place during the Grant Administration) and The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. featuring Bruce Campbell. Alongside a certain film adaptation that shall not be named, all of which featured advanced even borderline sci-fi technology in the age of the American Wild West.

Now the question is how could we believably see a real life version of the Wild Wild West taking place during the later decades of the 19th century?
Maybe Ned Kelly like plate Armor introduced in American Cival War and later adapted to civilian life during wild West. Cowboys, Outlaws, Law enforcements, Vigilanties, etc. wear armored plates on certain occasions.
 
According to an article from Scientific American the 1892 police model Gatling gun that was made in limited numbers was "but 74 pounds", sadly it does not say if that includes the weight of it's tripod or fully loaded drum magazine. I could see such a gun being carried through battle and used by three man teams like mobile machine gun units during WW1. Or even one man if he were to use a passive exoskeleton with spring balanced iso-elastic arms!
Maybe Ned Kelly like plate Armor introduced in American Cival War and later adapted to civilian life during wild West. Cowboys, Outlaws, Law enforcements, Vigilanties, etc. wear armored plates on certain occasions.
Reminds me of this guy from the Gettysburg Armored Warfare game.
gettysburg-armored-warfare-20110511020027114-3446208.jpg

Perhaps add in some Ned Kelly or Bashford Dean styled armor over it to create some form of pseudo power armor.
 
How about a Dr. Lovelace styled European nobleman who decided to build a city of tomorrow out west. After making his fortune with prosthetics based off of the iron hand of Gotz von Berlichingen following the American Civil War.
Agreed, thats why I talked about different advances in materials science and manufacturing in my earlier posts. Another helpful POD would be discovering large deposits of specific materials for mining earlier than in OTL. Such as the large deposits of copper and iron ore in the western USA that were not found until the 20th century.

Exactly my thoughts. One cool book that I'm also surprised no one has mentioned yet is The Difference Engine. It was published in 1990 so much like The Wild Wild West it was Steampunk before Steampunk had a name. The POD involves Charles Babbage completing his Difference Engine in 1824 and Lord Byron surviving the war in Greece and leading a political party in favor of radical industrialization. When the plot starts about three decades later the British Empire is more powerful than in OTL. In the specific case of North America, the areas of modern day New Mexico and Arizona are still held by Mexico, both Texas and California are independent republics, and the southern states have already seceded as the CSA. Not to mention that Manhattan is now and independent Commune. The plot of the story takes place in London, but is ripe for Wild West style scenarios. Especially given the fact that the plot involves a conspiracy revolving around Sam Houston in political exile, and the British sending paleontological expeditions into the western territories .

View attachment 580240

I think that in order to have a "Wild West" we would need to have greater conflict over the western half of North American than in OTL. Which should involve POD's around the Mexican-American War or the ACW. With the USA, Mexico, and/or CSA competing over resources and territory and using the native tribes as their proxies in many cases. Maybe even through in a conflict between the USA and Britain with a war in the western territory of Canada, just like in Turtledove's "How Few Remain" or the ending of "The Guns of The South".

After that there are also plenty of opportunities for "Western" style stories set in South America. The movie Blackthron showed me how rich of a setting that can be. Imagine a much larger Pacific War that in OTL. Or a scenario in which Bolivia keeps the Atacama desert to mine for nitrates, but there are still constant skirmishes along the border with a three way conflict between Bolivians, Chileans, and Peruvians.
Actually speaking of Turtledove I do wonder if with a Confederate victory in a Difference Engine/TL-191 scenario the United States might ally with the German Empire or one that emerged earlier. In the face of British imperial ambition on the North American continent and political ties with the Confederacy.

The Difference Engine is making me think of the world developing various proto internets with mechanical computers inter linked via telegraph lines.
 
Reminds me of this guy from the Gettysburg Armored Warfare game.
gettysburg-armored-warfare-20110511020027114-3446208.jpg

Perhaps add in some Ned Kelly or Bashford Dean styled armor over it to create some form of pseudo power armor.
You and I think a lot alike! lol
How about a Dr. Lovelace styled European nobleman who decided to build a city of tomorrow out west. After making his fortune with prosthetics based off of the iron hand of Gotz von Berlichingen following the American Civil War.

Actually speaking of Turtledove I do wonder if with a Confederate victory in a Difference Engine/TL-191 scenario the United States might ally with the German Empire or one that emerged earlier. In the face of British imperial ambition on the North American continent and political ties with the Confederacy.

The Difference Engine is making me think of the world developing various proto internets with mechanical computers inter linked via telegraph lines.
That sounds very cool

In general it looks like we're all in agreement about earlier breakthroughs in material science and machine tooling leading more technologically advanced version of the 19th century. Which could be best described as the Wild West meets The Difference Engine, with some Bioshock Infinite and Red Dead Redemption thrown in.

Earlier I did mention the idea of an independent California ruled by Emperor Norton as Parliamentary Monarchy. As for Texas maybe it eventually broke off from the Confederacy after the equivalent of World War 1, with some parallels to Polish-Soviet war?

Why am I picturing a frontier outlaw turning anarchist revolutionary and kickstarting a massive anarchist uprising across North America?
To help give you more inspiration for that anarchist idea, there is a short AH story titled The Last Ride of German Freddie, with the POD being that Frederick Nietzsche immigrates to the American Southwest for his health. He then makes friends with the Cochise County Cowboys and takes sides with them in their conflict against the Earp brothers.

Another fun AH short story that fits into the same themes of The Wild Wild West is Custer's Last Jump. The story involves George Armstrong Custer and his paratroopers fighting against Crazy horse and his fighter pilots at the Little Bighorn. One of the cooler parts of the stories is that it includes a fictional bibliography, with one of the fact sources being titled "Franklin's Engine", implying that the POD of this TL is that Benjamin Franklin invented the internal combustion engine.

A POD akin to that with Benjamin Franklin or some other founding father like Jefferson inventing something, or making a discovery that could domino into some tech advancement earlier than in OTL may be a good way to go. Another good POD that could occur across the pond in Britain is if Henry Cavendish's research was actually read and shared by others earlier than the 1870s!
 
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How about a Dr. Lovelace styled European nobleman who decided to build a city of tomorrow out west.

You could easily combine that with the plot of Jules Verne's The Begum's Fortune.

Here's a 1970s Czechoslovak film adaptation of the novel.

After making his fortune with prosthetics based off of the iron hand of Gotz von Berlichingen following the American Civil War.

One possible idea.

The Difference Engine is making me think of the world developing various proto internets with mechanical computers inter linked via telegraph lines.

A proto-Internet would change a lot about a WWW setting. If you feel telegraphs were already game-changers on the frontier, a mechanical computer network revolution would be an even greater one.
 
Of course, if you wanted to REALLY throw an ASB twist into things....
View attachment 580441
Admittedly I was thinking about the possibility of a reference to Cowboys & Aliens and the cigar UFO sitting in Texas from around the time period. Only I want to keep the technology "more or less" plausible... though What Madness is This did get away with Cthulhu so...

Also how familiar are you with the Weird West?
 
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