Pop-culture in TL-191

[SpanishSpy]

Has anyone mentioned what happens to the jitterbug or the Charleston and 1920s flapper culture in general OTL?

Swing dancer here. I know some of the history so I'll give this a shot.

What I'd imagine would happen to it, much like what I'd imagine what would happen to jazz, is that it'd have a connotation of survival that it doesn't have in our timeline. It becomes hallowed.

There would be far less appreciation of black dance and music by white people, partially because of the border between the two countries preventing much of the OTL Great Migration and as such the loss of the New York scene and the Savoy Ballroom would put a stop to the racial integration that certain scenes became known for.

You do have the antecedents to Blues Dance in the South already; due to the sanctification I mentioned earlier it might not become the rather raunchy dance it's become in OTL, but it's said that southern Blacks were more prudish than southern Whites, so it could still move in that direction. A TL-191 Swing Kids might revolve around one of these blues dancing communities.

Interestingly, this world has no American possession of Cuba so Cuban dances wouldn't make their way to New York, leading to their transformation by Arthur Murray into their American forms (still danced today) and their grouping with waltz, east coast swing, and a few others to form what we call 'ballroom dance.' In particular you wouldn't see the transformation of the urban black Lindy Hop (a descendant of Charleston, and which in TL-191 would have a different name) into East Coast Swing, designed to be easily teachable and more palatable to middle-class whites.

 

[Cire]

What would star trek be like?

What would an episode of Star Trek be like in the 191 universe? Well, I think that it might go something like the screen play I've posted at the below blog site.

https://startrek191.blogspot.com/2020/08/thefollowing-is-episode-of-television.html

Alright, I admit that I posted about 20% of this a few months back, but I've since fixed a lot of the errors, and this time around it is actually a complete story instead of just a strange blurb of a random idea.

Also, after the events described in the above blog, the crew of the Enterprise (I mean Essex) arrive at Earth to find that not only have they been transported back to the year 1968, but that they've also been transported to a version of reality in which the CSA won the Second Great War and totally dismantled the US. Don't know if I'll get around to typing that one out, because I'm thinking about another episode titled "Tribbles are the Solution".

In Tribbles are the Solution, the ship is being overrun with pesky tribbles, while at the same time the Essex is visiting a planet which is being stricken with a famine. Captain Kirk decides to feed the tribbles to the starving natives, and the rest just writes itself.

 

[BELFAST]

Birth of a Nation replaces God and Generals.( How the CSA won the war)
All quiet on the Potomac Front (instead of All quiet on the western front)
True Blood (a tale of confederate vampires)
Saving Gefreiter Von Müller(based on the Battle of Stalingrad) instead of saving private Ryan

 

[Allochronian]

Swing dancer here. I know some of the history so I'll give this a shot.

What I'd imagine would happen to it, much like what I'd imagine what would happen to jazz, is that it'd have a connotation of survival that it doesn't have in our timeline. It becomes hallowed.

There would be far less appreciation of black dance and music by white people, partially because of the border between the two countries preventing much of the OTL Great Migration and as such the loss of the New York scene and the Savoy Ballroom would put a stop to the racial integration that certain scenes became known for.

You do have the antecedents to Blues Dance in the South already; due to the sanctification I mentioned earlier it might not become the rather raunchy dance it's become in OTL, but it's said that southern Blacks were more prudish than southern Whites, so it could still move in that direction. A TL-191 Swing Kids might revolve around one of these blues dancing communities.

Interestingly, this world has no American possession of Cuba so Cuban dances wouldn't make their way to New York, leading to their transformation by Arthur Murray into their American forms (still danced today) and their grouping with waltz, east coast swing, and a few others to form what we call 'ballroom dance.' In particular you wouldn't see the transformation of the urban black Lindy Hop (a descendant of Charleston, and which in TL-191 would have a different name) into East Coast Swing, designed to be easily teachable and more palatable to middle-class whites.

Hey, SpanishSpy. Long time no see.
How's that Radioshow podcast? Is it still active?

Anyway, this is one of my favorite things that I keep finding out about the TL-191 Universe: It's more than just history being changed; the culture, music, entertainment industry, Science & Technology, etc. is deeply affected by a southern victory.

A few posters on have tried to come up with their version of how dance and music might be from the past few years. The last time I checked, one guy wrote that the near extinction of Jazz may have allowed Latin American music to fill that mostly empty space. Without a strong foundation of Jazz, Rock n' Roll and its derivatives may not develop as well as it did in real-life.

I tend to argue that Electronic music, such as Europop, may become more mainstream, compared to OTL.

 

[SpanishSpy]

Hey, SpanishSpy. Long time no see.
How's that Radioshow podcast? Is it still active?

Anyway, this is one of my favorite things that I keep finding out about the TL-191 Universe: It's more than just history being changed; the culture, music, entertainment industry, Science & Technology, etc. is deeply affected by a southern victory.

A few posters on have tried to come up with their version of how dance and music might be from the past few years. The last time I checked, one guy wrote that the near extinction of Jazz may have allowed Latin American music to fill that mostly empty space. Without a strong foundation of Jazz, Rock n' Roll and its derivatives may not develop as well as it did in real-life.

I tend to argue that Electronic music, such as Europop, may become more mainstream, compared to OTL.

The podcast we're hashing through - our next big episode is being recorded in late September.

The issue with Latin American music taking the place of black music is that so much of the music Americans love came from Cuba, and it's not American in this timeline. It would look more Mexican than Cuban if it does come to be, especially if the US gets Sonora and Chihuahua.

I'd hazard the guess that the big musical craze here is Central and Eastern European music (polka, klezmer, etc.) - it has a presence through immigrants, and it'll become even more popular as the alliance with Germany and Austria-Hungary develops.

 

[Soundwave3591]

Birth of a Nation replaces God and Generals.( How the CSA won the war)
All quiet on the Potomac Front (instead of All quiet on the western front)
True Blood (a tale of confederate vampires)
Saving Gefreiter Von Müller(based on the Battle of Stalingrad) instead of saving private Ryan

I don't think Stalingrad happened in this timeline. In fact, I'm sure of it, as the Red Army was defeated in the Russian Civil War.
The analog for Stalingrad is the battle of Pittsburgh.

 

[S. Marlowski]

I have wondered what kinds of popular Conspiracy Theories would be floating around in the world of TL-191. One kind of CT would claims of Jake Featherston surviving the SGW and had managed to escape to Latin America.

 

[pattontank12]

I have wondered what kinds of popular Conspiracy Theories would be floating around in the world of TL-191. One kind of CT would claims of Jake Featherston surviving the SGW and had managed to escape to Latin America.

Or South Africa.

 

[Soundwave3591]

I have wondered what kinds of popular Conspiracy Theories would be floating around in the world of TL-191. One kind of CT would claims of Jake Featherston surviving the SGW and had managed to escape to Latin America.

I'm not sure it counts as "conspiracy" but I can envision a CSA-aligned Variant of the "Clean Wehrmacht" ideology coming into play, IE the post-WWII rhetoric that the crimes of the 3rd Reich were perpetrated by the SS and Hitler's inner circle, while the regular German Army fought a "clean" war.

I could see CSA veterans pushing the same ideology, that the mass-murder of blacks and the anti-democratic practices of the Featherston Regime were perpetrated by the Freedom Party Guards and Featherson's inner clique, and the reguler CSA troops had nothing to do with it. "Innocent Johnny" becomes popular in the 1950's and 60's and is actually held up by the US government out of a desire to reunite the pre-1860 USA and not fan the still-simmering tensions in the occupied former CSA.

 

[PGSBHurricane]

I'm not sure it counts as "conspiracy" but I can envision a CSA-aligned Variant of the "Clean Wehrmacht" ideology coming into play, IE the post-WWII rhetoric that the crimes of the 3rd Reich were perpetrated by the SS and Hitler's inner circle, while the regular German Army fought a "clean" war.

I could see CSA veterans pushing the same ideology, that the mass-murder of blacks and the anti-democratic practices of the Featherston Regime were perpetrated by the Freedom Party Guards and Featherson's inner clique, and the reguler CSA troops had nothing to do with it. "Innocent Johnny" becomes popular in the 1950's and 60's and is actually held up by the US government out of a desire to reunite the pre-1860 USA and not fan the still-simmering tensions in the occupied former CSA.

Was George Patton a Freedomite, and not just in the loose sense?

 

[PGSBHurricane]

Also, do pop stars like Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, Madonna, or Britney Spears become famous ITTL?

 

[Soundwave3591]

Was George Patton a Freedomite, and not just in the loose sense?

Real-life Patton was a pretty standard mid-20th Century Racist (he wrote unfavorably about Black soldiers before the War, and only changed his tune once he saw how well they fought (indeed, the "He won by making the other dumb B*stard die for his country" part of the famous 1970 Movie speech was actually delivered to Black tank crews in the 761st tank battalion)

And so I'd imagine his TL191 counterpart would be the same, likely heightened by growing up in the CSA. At the very least, he likely wouldn't oppose or question the Freedomite line on blacks, simply because the eye-opening experience of actually seeing Black troops in combat wouldn't have happened to him.

 

[pattontank12]

Wonder what the episode Far Beyond the Stars from Star Trek: Deep Space 9 would be like in timeline 191 along with the rest of the series?

 

[Mister Abbadon]

Wonder what the episode Far Beyond the Stars from Star Trek: Deep Space 9 would be like in timeline 191 along with the rest of the series?

Depends if the show as it exists would feel confident enough to tackle the Population reduction. Maybe the white characters aren't racist so much as ignoring the rising tide of the Freedom Party.


Or if the show isn't prestige enough it may simply not exist or be a jokey Holodeck type episode.

 

[Sunstone77]

Wonder what the episode Far Beyond the Stars from Star Trek: Deep Space 9 would be like in timeline 191 along with the rest of the series?

Cardassians talk with a far more southern drawl? (kidding)

I think something like Mister Abbadon's suggestion would be the most likely outcome. Depending on how comfortable the studios or producers felt, they could have it set in the CSA during the era of Featherston before the Population Reduction really takes swing, with the various main cast as the different shade of non-Freedom confederates. Large portions of the plot I imagine could stay the same, with Benny working on a story he hopes will provide enough to help him get his family out of the CS while dealing the racism of the era, with the added tension of people he knows getting disappeared into the Camp system

 

[Marklin]

What would Warhammer 40k be like in this TL? All I got is that the Tau may take more from Imperial Japan and the Imperium might take more from Actionist France than Featherston's Confederacy. Alternatively, I can see them taking elements from both the North and South, or just straight up look to the British Empire.

Alternatively, maybe the Imperium takes influence from the Empire of Japan (One of the potential baddies of TL 191's post-war world) while the Tau are a caricature of the US, with a mix of Socialist ideals and Democrat war hawks.

 

[S. Marlowski]

A promotional artwork for the British Animé series Azure Lane, which is about warships of the Second Great War era Royal Navy, Marine Nationale, Kaiserliche Marine, and the United States Navy as well a few over navies that are personified as either adolescent girls or as young adult women with their personality reflecting the history of each vessel, which they have come to be known as fleet girls. Azure Lane would start out back in 2012 originally as a video game, which would soon become a hit, which the franchise would diversify into other media such as graphic novels, comics, trading cards, and in 2015, an animé TV series would be produced which takes the perspective of the destroyer HMS Laforey.

 

[Unkown00]

How would The Man in the High castle look like? Also not pop culture related but did what did fetherson planned to do the the US if he had won the war?

 

[A Piece of History]

but did what did fetherson planned to do the the US if he had won the war?

I think he just planned to get back the territory the US took from the Confederacy. Of course, given how vindictive he is as a person, he would probably castrate the US in some way

 

[Soundwave3591]

How would The Man in the High castle look like? Also not pop culture related but did what did fetherson planned to do the the US if he had won the war?

Given his historical allegory, he would likely impose some intense measures on the US.
I can foresee him forcing them to return Canada to the UK and give Utah its independence, and massively reduce the size of its military.