Post #3 of this thread contains a map I made of during FGW, which is close enough for it to be similar to that of before 1914.
One for SGW I have not made yet, but I did make one for the year 1989.
TL-191 Map Thread Redux
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Post #3 of this thread contains a map I made of during FGW, which is close enough for it to be similar to that of before 1914.
One for SGW I have not made yet, but I did make one for the year 1989.
Yeah, it says that it's a post-First Great War.
Personally, for that map, I'd also include in southern Illinois (there were a lot of support for secession in Little Egypt, and there was even Illinoisans who fought for the CSA) for the CSA. For Canada, I'd put all of Maine and maybe all of Washington.
MaxGerke01
Banned
What about Maryland and even Delaware?
I can of course see why the USA would resist giving up either of these at all costs but in the case of Maryland youd have a high percentage of the population who had supported secession,fought for the CSA and very much considered themselves Southerners.
Maryland in the CSA means the USA loses Washington DC de jure instead of just de facto which would have been symbolically speaking a dagger through the heart of the old USA. How could reunification have been as desirable or possible when your old capital city is now part of a different country ?
The Union would never hand over Delaware and Maryland, and looking at what the CSA gained in that map, I think they'd be overstretching themselves. There's only so much territory a country can annex before it becomes too much for them. Now, I could see small parts of Maryland being handed over to the CSA (likely Garrett and Allegany counties) but not the whole state. They'd be lucky to get West Virginia, Southern Illinois, and Arizona (former New Mexico). They'd likely annex areas which are relatively low in population and they'd have their hands full with just West Virginia (1.2 million in OTL 1910) and southern Missouri in terms of sheer demographic size. Missouri in OTL 1910 had 3.2 million.
Yeah, there's a reason why I labeled the map as "obsolete".
I tend to view this "Third Southern Victory" map as a more accurate representation of a possible Freedomite Victory during SGW, instead of it being a "Confederate Establishment Victory" during FGW. In the books, all Featherston wanted was lands that the CSA lost in the First Great War and was not really interested in conquest. However, given that he is a pathological liar, he could have changed his mind and sought more land in order to stick it against the USA. My Dixieland map is a better contender for a Third Southern Victory.
The creation of Arizona as a C.S. territory after FGW was something I regret doing. I thought, at the time, that the Confederates would support a Mormon state and wanted to share a border with them. Although, I do like the idea of splitting Missouri into two states and the British taking a chunk out of Washington and upper Michigan. West Virginia is a 50/50 opportunity for the CSA, but they may not be able to control a state that originally wanted nothing to do with the Confederates.
I actually think you were actually pretty close in terms of this map and what an initial Freedomite victory would look like. They'd be close to the same thing, I feel. Yes, Featherston is a pathological liar, but I feel like that map is a pretty good blueprint for the base territories the CSA would claim.
Arizona might be bisected with OTL southern Arizona and New Mexico (similar to the Confederate Arizona territory) going to the CSA and the rest remaining with the USA. It gives a bit more protection for Guaymas and secures Confederate positions in the Gulf of California and it was historical territory that the CSA had claimed during the initial War of Secession (and it shortens the link to supply Mormon rebels against the USA while still maintaining plausible deniability). Missouri being split works well. I do agree with West Virginia though - it's a 50/50 shot at all of it. At best, the CSA might take a few slivers rather than the whole thing to make it easier to handle. Sort of like this map (link).
The British would end up taking all of Maine (at least, my personal view is that they would), Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and probably all of Washington State in the Great War. In any Second Great War, I could see the British taking the rest of Michigan and Oregon.
A few questions about TL191 for some maps.
- Does Romania joins GW1 on the side of Entente?
- Does Greece joins GW1? if Italy doesn't then Greece wouldn't either
- About the Baltic States, were they neutral in GW2? because if they were then they were probably the same as OTL baltics (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), rather than the German-controlled Courland and Kingdom of Lithuania
- If Brazil joins the Central Powers in GW1, then wouldn't they have at least occupied British and French Guyana? maybe Turtledove doesn't mentions it but for the sake of the map I will put it anyway
Why id Bulgaria not with all of Dobruja?Back in 2012 a thread was created about the Maps from Harry Turtledove's Southern Victory series aka TL-191. Since that thread has been dead for years and many of us has maps but have nowhere on this site to post them at, well then, I have decided to create a new thread for this purpose, so to start things off here, here are some maps of Europe in 1941 on the eve of war.
A Political Map
And an Alliance Map
Probably because in TL191 Romania remained neutral in GW1 (I think), hence why it also lacks Bessarabia even though in the event of a Central Powers victory it would be awarded Bessarabia as IOTL Treaty of Bucharest.
Demographics of TL-191: North America in 1940
*Light-blue is U.S. territory
**Not pictured, but included in the population total: Sandwich Islands (Hawaii)
***Greenland's population would be around 20,000. Notwithstanding the real-life American population of Alaska, there could have been around 70,000 people in the region in TL-191.
Sources are similar from my 1910 map. Here are some extras:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Canadian_Census
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greenland
3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Dominican_Republic
4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iceland
Side-Note: In real-life, the pop. of Nazi Germany was close to 70 million, while in the Soviet Union, it was about 196 million. The map here is a general estimate; the actual numbers could be very different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
*Light-blue is U.S. territory
**Not pictured, but included in the population total: Sandwich Islands (Hawaii)
***Greenland's population would be around 20,000. Notwithstanding the real-life American population of Alaska, there could have been around 70,000 people in the region in TL-191.
Sources are similar from my 1910 map. Here are some extras:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Canadian_Census
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greenland
3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Dominican_Republic
4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iceland
Side-Note: In real-life, the pop. of Nazi Germany was close to 70 million, while in the Soviet Union, it was about 196 million. The map here is a general estimate; the actual numbers could be very different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
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A Proposed Post-War Map for the Confederacy dubbed the Morgenthau Plan, which was originally published in December of 1943.
The Morgenthau Plan, which was named after President La Follette's Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr, who engineered this proposal. In it, the plan was that following the defeat of Featherston's Confederacy, the CSA was to be dissolved. Several states, which included Sonora, Chihuahua, Houston, Sequoya, most of Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, and parts of Virginia were to be under US Military Occupation, while the other states, such as Cuba, Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Virginia were to be made into independent nations, which were essentially going to be puppet states of the USA. Also outlined in the plan was that all of the former CSA's heavy industries (such as factories, steel mills, shipyards, and mines) were all to be dismantled and the successor states were to be all agricultural, thus making them economically dependent on the North and none of the intended new nations were allowed to have armies of their own, which would then be occupied by Union troops. The plan would also include the plan to expel all remaining Mormons in the territory of Utah to be expelled to either Northern Canada or to the territory of Hawaii and to be resettled by immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe.
The Morgenthau Plan, which was named after President La Follette's Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr, who engineered this proposal. In it, the plan was that following the defeat of Featherston's Confederacy, the CSA was to be dissolved. Several states, which included Sonora, Chihuahua, Houston, Sequoya, most of Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, and parts of Virginia were to be under US Military Occupation, while the other states, such as Cuba, Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, and Virginia were to be made into independent nations, which were essentially going to be puppet states of the USA. Also outlined in the plan was that all of the former CSA's heavy industries (such as factories, steel mills, shipyards, and mines) were all to be dismantled and the successor states were to be all agricultural, thus making them economically dependent on the North and none of the intended new nations were allowed to have armies of their own, which would then be occupied by Union troops. The plan would also include the plan to expel all remaining Mormons in the territory of Utah to be expelled to either Northern Canada or to the territory of Hawaii and to be resettled by immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe.
MaxGerke01
Banned
In a way this plan is more realistic than what was done. I have always thought that reabsorbing the CSA into the USA after 80 years of separation was too easy and simplistic. Its not like post Civil War OTL where the split was just for 4 years and was easily surmounted. You have two generations of people maybe three who have come to view the two countries as implacable enemies on top of in fact being two different countries so realistically that would take at least two generations to get over successfully if ever. Also when you consider what the Confederates did in the Destruction you would have millions of Americans who would not want to accept them as Americans then or ever....
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And there would be massive guerilla war and terrorism problem which would get OTL Northern Ireland in 1970's looking like walking in park. People just aren't sitting down and accepting their nation being permanentally gone.
Probably would be better to split the CSA into East and West in order to make it a better analogue. Not including Texas, nor the states with less rabid populations like Houston, Sequoyah, Tennesse, and Kentucky of course.
Here's my newly completed map of Asia, circa 1937 at the start of the Second Sino-Japanese War for my headcanon.
As you can see, Mongolia and Manchuria are both Russian client states as well as much of China is either under control of the Kuomingtang Faction or under other Warlord control. Another thing is that unlike in the original novel, the East Indies are still under Dutch Colonial Control at this point.
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Not bad. I thought the area that would makes up Indonesia would be part of Japan at this time?
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Well in my mind, unless there was an unmentioned war between Japan and the Netherlands, I would still see the Dutch still controlling the East Indies until 1941.
Personally my theory is that after the SGW the US would probably conduct massive ethnic cleansing against the Confederates. Basically with them getting tired of Confederate Guerilla's (and seeing the "success" of the ethnic cleansing of the Mormons in Utah) and lacking little if any sympathy after the SGW (and all of the bloody US/Confederates wars and history) they'd solve the Guerrila problem by partially or totally ethnicly cleansing the White Confederate population from at least several former Confederate states. Probably the border states at a minimum. The expelled populations would be deported to a handful of former Confederate states (I was thinking Florida and SC and maybe one or two others) which wouldn't be truly independent and would be stripped of any heavy industry and occupied by US troops.
It'd be incredibly awful and a lot of innocent civilians would die (and the suffering of those deported or already living in the "Reservations" would be terrible.) but I could see the US in TL seeing it as better then dealing with a decades long brutal insurgency across all of the former CSA.
You'd probably see something along the lines of a 20th century "Homestead Act" with Northerners, US Army veterans, surviving black Confederates, and immigrants from friendly foreign nations (or other groups seen as "loyal") into the former CSA states that have been ethnically cleansed.
Basically think some combination of Stalin deporting so many "unloyal" ethnic/national groups and the expulsion of ethnic Germans from across Eastern Europe after WW2.
I agree that actually trying to integrate (with the eventual idea being statehood) the former CSA into the US by the end of the SGW just isn't viable. Confederate Nationalism is just too heavily ingrained and it's just too much territory. Actually trying to fight an insurgency across the entire former CSA even with the tactics the US in TL uses (Such as responding to the killing of a single American soldier by taking several dozen or hundred innocent civilians hostage and then executing them) just isn't going to work.