How Is This TL So far on a Scale of 1-5

  • 1 - Alien Space Bats

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • 2 - Generally Implausible

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3 - Moderately Plausible

    Votes: 14 36.8%
  • 4- Generally Plausible

    Votes: 18 47.4%
  • 5- Very Plausible

    Votes: 5 13.2%

  • Total voters
    38
  • Poll closed .

Ficboy

Banned
Charleston is currently the capital. Because of the additions of Virginia, Cumberland, and Lower Louisiana plus increased settlement in the territories, Charleston is not going to remain a good fit forever because it’s immediately on the coast and doesn’t represent the increasingly northern and western shifts in population.
I'd say that Richmond. Virginia could become capital given the population increase and industry in the 1800s like in OTL. It was also the capital of the Confederate States of America (CSA) and probably the most important Southern city besides New Orleans, Louisiana, Charleston, South Carolina, Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee respectively.

As far as what happens to Texas and the Southwestern territories for both America and the Confederacy (the abbreviated name for the Southern American Confederation) believe me not only will Manifest Destiny be very different but so will slavery and how it ends.
 
Last edited:
I'd say that Richmond. Virginia could become capital given the population increase and industry in the 1800s like in OTL. It was also the capital of the Confederate States of America (CSA) and probably the most important Southern city besides New Orleans, Louisiana, Charleston, South Carolina, Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee respectively.

As far as what happens to Texas and the Southwestern territories for both America and the Confederacy (the abbreviated name for the Southern American Confederation) believe me not only will Manifest Destiny be very different but so will slavery and how it ends.
I was actually considering Richmond but based on the current situation it seems a bit too close to the US border. I don’t think the state of North Virginia would be too happy with that.
 

Ficboy

Banned
I was actually considering Richmond but based on the current situation it seems a bit too close to the US border. I don’t think the state of North Virginia would be too happy with that.
Virginia will become more populous and industrialized over time and this includes Richmond itself. Louisiana has only just been recently acquired and New Orleans, Louisiana is too soon while the other cities in the SAC aren't nearly as populous as Richmond over time except Charleston, South Carolina.
 
Could moving the capital from somewhere in SC to somewhere in SC cause resentment amongst the other states? I know NC has some latent issues with "prideful South Carolina"
 

Ficboy

Banned
PGBS Hurricane, what are the states of the Southern American Confederation (SAC): We know that Virginia (the non-Northern half), North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee and Cumberland (formerly Kentucky) are part of it but what are the names of the other two territories/soon to be states: Are they called Alabama and Mississippi like OTL or is it something else different. Arkansas and Oklahoma are inevitably going to end up as part of the SAC given that they have effective control of the areas part of those present-day states.

Political Parties: Since Andrew Jackson will likely be President of the SAC this means the Democratic Party as we know it won't exist in the United States and thus radically alters the two party system which includes the Whig Party as well.

Trail of Tears: I can expect this event to occur per OTL.

Napoleonic Wars: Let's just say it will end more or less like it did in OTL.
 
Last edited:
PGBS Hurricane, what are the states of the Southern American Confederation (SAC): We know that Virginia (the non-Northern half), North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee and Cumberland (formerly Kentucky) are part of it but what are the names of the other two territories/soon to be states: Are they called Alabama and Mississippi like OTL or is it something else different. Arkansas and Oklahoma are inevitably going to end up as part of the SAC given that they have effective control of the areas part of those present-day states.

Political Parties: Since Andrew Jackson will likely be President of the SAC this means the Democratic Party as we know it won't exist in the United States and thus radically alters the two party system which includes the Whig Party as well.

Trail of Tears: I can expect this event to occur per OTL.

Napoleonic Wars: Let's just say it will end more or less like it did in OTL.
Cumberland is the southern half of Kentucky. The northern half is with the Union. Current territories include Unorganized Territory (northern half of OTL Alabama), Yazoo (northern half of OTL Mississippi), Mississippi (southern halves of OTL Alabama and Mississippi), Orleans (much of OTL Louisiana) and Louisiana (OTL Arkansas and Oklahoma). There's a two party system on both sides of the border (Federalists and Republicans in the North, and Nationalists and Democrats in the South) but without the War of 1812 I can't see it falling apart like OTL. The Trail of Tears may actually be moved up. As for the Napoleanic Wars, the USA and SAC are being careful at staying neutral but the outcome may be slightly different, such as Florida possibly being annexed earlier.
 
Last edited:

Ficboy

Banned
Cumberland is the southern half of Kentucky. The northern half is with the Union. Current territories include Alabama (northern half of OTL Alabama), Yazoo (northern half of OTL Mississippi), Mississippi (southern halves of OTL Alabama and Mississippi), Orleans (much of OTL Louisiana) and Louisiana (OTL Arkansas and Oklahoma). There's a two party system on both sides of the border (Federalists and Republicans in the North, and Nationalists and Democrats in the South) but without the War of 1812 I can't see it falling apart like OTL. The Trail of Tears may actually be moved up. As for the Napoleanic Wars, the USA and SAC are being careful at staying neutral but the outcome may be slightly different, such as Florida possibly being annexed earlier.

So there are 11 states in the Southern American Confederation (SAC): Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Yazoo, Alabama, Louisiana and Orleans. I'm guessing that some of these states could merge or split off at least the territories. Florida might also join.
 
So there are 11 states in the Southern American Confederation (SAC): Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Yazoo, Alabama, Louisiana and Orleans. I'm guessing that some of these states could merge or split off at least the territories. Florida might also join.
Currently, only six: Cumberland, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia.
 
Chapter Twenty-Three: President James II - The US Presidential Election of 1808
Chapter Twenty-Three: President James II - The US Presidential Election of 1808

1808 was unarguably an important year in the history of the United States. On the first of January, the end of the slave trade indicated that slaves would no longer be imported into the borders of the United States. This was an important first step for the abolition of slavery later down the line, which at the time was mostly concentrated in New England. While their southern neighbor held this in contempt, president Thomas Jefferson sent out a letter to him just a matter of days later commending him for this move in private. Rufus King wrote back to him after Jefferson left his office, saying that this would only be the beginning for the end of the institution in his country, and he would do his best to usher support for abolition without compromise as long as he remained alive.

On the other hand, there remained an elephant in the room - what to do about the recognition of Haitian independence. The Haitian Revolution led by Toussaint Louverture was widely supported by Federalists such as Alexander Hamilton. When Haiti became the world’s first black republic, Hamilton himself urged for close economic and diplomatic ties to the new country. This actually could date to April 1799, when president John Adams sent Edward Stevens to Haiti with instructions to establish support for Toussaint and his revolution, including suppressing privateers operating there, protecting American lives and property, and secure the right of entry for American vessels. He succeeded in meeting several of these objectives. After Haiti attained its independence from France in 1804, some pro-slavery Americans worried the Haitian Revolution would influence slave revolts and tried to lobby for the US to not recognize Haiti’s independence. It worked for a few years until 1808 where one of the hidden conditions of the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves was to begin the process of recognizing Haitian independence, although it could not outright do so without violating the terms of neutrality placed in 1802.

On a completely different front, while settlement further west was not as aggressive compared to the SAC, thousands continued to pour into the old Northwest Territory, especially into Ohio (admitted as a state on March 1, 1803) and Indiana Territory. By 1805, there were enough settlers in the northeastern part of the territory that Michigan Territory was organized on June 30. Its borders were signified with a straight line drawn from the southern tip of Lake Michigan to the Southwest tip of Lake Erie and another straight line due north from Lake Michigan’s northern tip to Lake Superior and the border of British Canada. Portions of southeast Michigan were part of the Toledo Strip, which it claimed until the 1830s. Settlement in other parts of Indiana Territory grew equally rapidly. Just three days before the end of Rufus King’s term, on March 1, 1809, Illinois Territory was organized from the western portion of Indiana Territory.

The Federalist Congressional caucus met in September 1808 and easily re-nominated incumbent president Rufus King and incumbent vice president and former House Majority Leader John Cotton Smith of Connecticut. On the Republican side, which met in July 1808, supporters of Founding Father James Madison of North Virginia worked carefully to ensure that Madison would claim the ticket, with his primary competition coming from the former governor of New York George Clinton, who sought to end the Federalist Dynasty. Many Clinton supporters refused to accept the caucus results and refused to withdraw support from Clinton until that summer. In the end, Madison was chosen as the presidential nominee while Clinton was selected for the Vice Presidential Candidate, beating out Congressman Henry Dearborn and Senator John Quincy Adams, both of Massachusetts.

The election campaign was marked by opposition to Federalist domination under King by the Republicans. Nonetheless, King was still decently popular with most Americans, particularly in New England, New York City, and Philadelphia, though not as much as in 1804. Also, the Federalist Party criticized the Embargo Act from the Confederacy, especially in the light of Republicans who were pushing for the same thing on the opposite side of the border, considering it as a deliberate act of working against American interests. The popular votes were cast on November 4 in a few states, but the decision did not come until December 7 with the casting of votes from the Electoral College. King received electoral votes from New England except for Vermont, plus Delaware, and a split proportion of votes in New York and Maryland. However, this was not enough to defeat Republican challenger James Madison, who won in his home state of North Virginia plus Kentucky, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Vermont, and the majority of New York and Maryland.

Madison rode to the Philadelphia capitol building on March 4, 1809 with the Philadelphia calvary. In a new black suit, James Madison was sworn in as the fourth president of the United States and gave his Inaugural Address. As a Republican with Federalistic influences, Madison acknowledged that the country had a lot of issues to face and that he was under significant pressure to solve them. On a more positive note, he addressed how far the United States has come in nearly 20 years. Wanting to do his best to honor the neutrality placed upon America in 1802, he informed the public he wanted to keep the peace and good relations with powers like Britain and France and even the Southern American Confederation. To end his speech, he expressed gratitude for past leaders of the country and wished the young nation a good future.

1597288309971.png
 
Last edited:

Ficboy

Banned
Chapter Twenty-Three: President James II - The US Presidential Election of 1808

1808 was unarguably an important year in the history of the United States. On the first of January, the end of the slave trade indicated that slaves would no longer be imported into the borders of the United States. This was an important first step for the abolition of slavery later down the line, which at the time was mostly concentrated in New England. While their southern neighbor held this in contempt, president Thomas Jefferson sent out a letter to him just a matter of days later commending him for this move in private. Rufus King wrote back to him after Jefferson left his office, saying that this would only be the beginning for the end of the institution in his country and he would do his best to usher support for abolition without compromise as long as he remained alive.

On the other hand, there remained an elephant in the room - what to do about the recognition of Haitian independence. The Haitian Revolution led by Toussaint Louverture was widely supported by Federalists such as Alexander Hamilton. When Haiti became the world’s first black republic, Hamilton himself urged for close economic and diplomatic ties to the new country. This actually could date to April 1799 when president John Adams sent Edward Stevens to Haiti with instructions to establish support for Toussaint and his revolution including suppressing privateers operating there, protecting American lives and property, and secure the right of entry for American vessels. He succeeded in meeting several of these objectives. After Haiti attained its independence from France in 1804, some pro-slavery Americans worried the Haitian Revolution would influence slave revolts and tried to lobby for the US to not recognize Haiti’s independence. It worked for a few years until 1808 where one of the hidden conditions of the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves was to recognize Haitian independence.

On a completely different front, while settlement further west was not as aggressive compared to the SAC, thousands continued to pour into the old Northwest Territory, especially into Ohio (admitted as a state on March 1, 1803) and Indiana Territory. By 1805, there were enough settlers in the northeastern part of the territory that Michigan Territory was organized on June 30. Its borders were signified with a straight line drawn from the southern tip of Lake Michigan to the Southwest tip of Lake Erie and another straight line due north from Lake Michigan’s northern tip to Lake Superior and the border of British Canada. Portions of southeast Michigan were part of the Toledo Strip, which it claimed until the 1830s. Settlement in other parts of Indiana Territory grew equally rapidly. Just three days before the end of Rufus King’s term, on March 1, 1809, Illinois Territory was organized from the western portion of Indiana Territory.

The Federalist Congressional caucus met in September 1808 and easily re-nominated incumbent president Rufus King and incumbent vice president and former House Majority Leader John Cotton Smith of Connecticut. On the Republican side, which met in July 1808, supporters of Founding Father James Madison of North Virginia worked carefully to ensure that Madison would claim the ticket, with his primary competition coming from the former governor of New York George Clinton, who sought to end the Federalist Dynasty. Many Clinton supporters refused to accept the caucus results and refused to withdraw support from Clinton until that summer. In the end, Madison was chosen as the presidential nominee while Clinton was selected for the Vice Presidential Candidate, beating out Congressman Henry Dearborn and Senator John Quincy Adams, both of Massachusetts.

The election campaign was marked by opposition to Federalist domination under King by the Republicans. Nonetheless, King was still decently popular with most Americans, particularly in New England, New York City, and Philadelphia, though not as much as in 1804. Also, the Federalist Party criticized the Embargo Act from the Confederacy, especially in the light of Republicans who were pushing for the same thing on the opposite side of the border, considering it as a deliberate act of working against American interests. The popular votes were cast on November 4 in a few states, but the decision did not come until December 7 with the casting of votes from the Electoral College. King received electoral votes from New England except for Vermont, plus Delaware, and a split proportion of votes in New York and Maryland. However, this was not enough to defeat Republican challenger James Madison, who won in his home state of North Virginia plus Kentucky, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Vermont, and the majority of New York and Maryland.

Madison rode to the Philadelphia capitol building on March 4, 1809 with the Philadelphia calvary. In a new black suit, James Madison was sworn in as the fourth president of the United States and gave his Inaugural Address. As a Republican with Federalistic influences, Madison acknowledged that the country had a lot of issues to face and that he was under significant pressure to solve them. On a more positive note, he addressed how far the United States has come in nearly 20 years. Wanting to do his best to honor the neutrality placed upon America in 1802, he informed the public he wanted to keep the peace and good relations with powers like Britain and France and even the Southern American Confederation. To end his speech, he expressed gratitude for past leaders of the country and wished the young nation a good future.

View attachment 574833
Perhaps some territories or states could be merged together for the Southern American Confederation. Also, I'm guessing the flag might resemble something like your idea and the original American flag during the Revolutionary War.
 
Sorry about the late update, everyone. Not only did I finish my summer classes this week but I lost electricity during hurricane Isaias for four days.
 
Chapter Twenty Four: A Presentation of Slavery in North America
Chapter Twenty Four: A Presentation of Slavery in North America

During the British colonization of North America, slavery existed up and down the Atlantic Coast. In the North, most slaves were artisans, house servants, and general laborers. A huge concentration of slaves existed in the cities. In fact, in the early 18th century, more than 40 percent of New York City households owned or rented slaves, second only to Charleston, South Carolina. Slaves were also used as agricultural workers, especially in Connecticut, New Jersey, and New York. Meanwhile, the South developed an agricultural economy dependent on cash crops and intense labor. Initially, slaves primarily grew indigo, rice, and tobacco on plantations. Long-staple cotton was cultivated on the Sea Islands of Georgia and South Carolina. Slavery was so ingrained in southern culture that in 1720, nearly two-thirds of South Carolinians were slaves. Planters with 20 or more slaves dominated southern politics, most living in or near port cities. In the Appalachian Mountains, with much rockier soil, slaves were considered luxury items.

By the time the Constitutional Convention began in 1787, all thirteen states, except Georgia and South Carolina, either limited or banned the importation of African slaves into their domains. The SAC, however, re-legalized the slave trade in its borders. When all was said and done (through the 19th century), about six percent of the roughly twelve million slaves taken from Africa to the Americas landed in mainland British North America, with most of those imported from the British Caribbean instead of Africa itself. On the other hand, the vast majority of slaves exported from Africa were shipped off to sugar plantations in the Caribbean and Brazil. As life expectancy was much shorter due to harsher conditions, their numbers had to be continually replenished. Unlike slaves in the tropics, the life expectancy of slaves was higher in continental North America and the slave population increased naturally. In 1790, the population grew so much that there were more than 750,000 slaves in North America.

Upon the outbreak of the American Revolution, many slaves seized the opportunity to escape the plantations and into cities or the woods. In South Carolina alone, nearly 25,000 slaves fled, migrated, or died during the war. Losses were high across the South, with others also fleeing the Mid-Atlantic and New England. In 1781, the British evacuated 20,000 freedmen from major coastal cities, transporting them to Canada, the British Caribbean, or Great Britain itself. As most patriotic states outlawed the importation of slaves, the northern states began moving to abolish slavery altogether. Between 1780 and 1804, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey all either outright abolished slavery or passed gradual emancipation acts. Vermont had abolished slavery before its admittance into the Union in 1791. Only Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and North Virginia still had slavery on their books by 1808.

The year 1787 was the tipping point for North America. Up until that point, slavery was largely unregulated on a nationwide and continent-wide scale. The only thing before the Conisituiaonl Convention that directly addressed slavery was The Northwest Ordinance of 1787, which said that new states created from this territory would be admitted as gree states. The Articles of Confederation, published in 1781, did not mention slavery and left the power to regulate it to individual states. Predictably, after the Revolution, the former British colonists did not trust the idea of a strong central government to do things like abolish slavery. Because of this, each state only had one vote in Congress to prevent the government from getting too much power. This caused things to come to a head in 1787. During the constitutional Convention that summer, there were two massive debates.

The first debate was over the representation of states in Congress. The Virginia Plan, written by James Madison, called for representation based on population. This was supported by slave states to ensure as much representation of their interests as possible. In response, William Paterson wrote out the New Jersey Plan, calling for equal representation for all states in the Union. This was especially popular with the northern states. What resulted was a bicameral legislature with an Upper House (Senate) with equal representation and the Lower House (House of Representatives) with representation based on population.

Then came contention over how to count slaves. Southern states wanted their slaves counted to ensure as many votes in Congress as possible, while northern states considered slaves as property and opposed this. Originally, a compromise where slaves would count as three-fifths of a person was proposed, but was soon shot down. After more bickering, the delegates from Georgia and the Carolinas would walk out of the Convention. Virginia and Maryland tried to follow them out the door, only to be stopped by James Madison and George Washington. The issue of slavery pulled America apart in Philadelphia in a tug of war for power. At the time, it seemed like the end of the world. As time went on, though, people on both sides of the border began to think that perhaps this was a good thing, saving the continent from a much more violent conflict down the line.

Between large numbers of runaway slaves and decreasing prices of important crops, some southern masters were even starting to free their slaves and preparing for a bleak future. The invention of the cotton gin in 1793 changed the game by allowing for mass production of short-staple cotton outside of coastal areas. This caused the spread of slavery through the Deep South and a revival in the upper country where it was beginning to die. When the USA abolished the slave trade in 1808, Charleston was by far the biggest destination for imported slaves, although there was quite a bit of smuggling via Spanish Florida. Even by the standards of the time, Virginia and Cumberland had little new agricultural developments as tobacco production had fallen below cotton production in monetary value and the climate was not valuable for either cotton or sugarcane. In general, slavery was on the upswing in the SoCon with no signs of slowing down in most portions of the land.

640px-Slave_dance_to_banjo,_1780s.jpg
 
Last edited:
Top