Geopolitics if Plantagenet England conquers France?
- Thread starter lucon50
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Well sooner of later the Burgundian inheritance is going to become an issue and as King of France, the King of England will have claims on some or all of it if he can come to an agreement with Austria. I think France will likely evolve into the dominant partner of a Union with England and pursue historical French policy. It would want to keep the HRE and Spain out of Italy and gather allies against the Hapsburg threat.
Expect Sicily and Hungary to be on friendly terms with the Union as fellow Angevin States. Also expect them to be sources of conflict with regional rivals though. Expect allies in the ERE or the Turks as well, maybe Russia and either Denmark or Sweden.
Due to control over the Dover Strait and access to the Mediterranean expect the Union to be a major maritime power exerting dominance of the sea from the Baltic to the Atlantic through the Hansa maybe and alignment with the Italian Cities and maybe even the Moors in the South. Anything to mobilise against the Hapsburgs.
I can't help but believe that in the long run England and France are too different to persist as a union in the Early Modern Era and definitely the Age of Nationalism. Its certainly likely by the time the two part ways though that the British Isles is fully under one power. That process of unification between England and Scotland would've been quicker without the French backing the Scots and one achieved through domination. The Kingdom of Scotland would no longer be distinct within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
Expect Sicily and Hungary to be on friendly terms with the Union as fellow Angevin States. Also expect them to be sources of conflict with regional rivals though. Expect allies in the ERE or the Turks as well, maybe Russia and either Denmark or Sweden.
Due to control over the Dover Strait and access to the Mediterranean expect the Union to be a major maritime power exerting dominance of the sea from the Baltic to the Atlantic through the Hansa maybe and alignment with the Italian Cities and maybe even the Moors in the South. Anything to mobilise against the Hapsburgs.
I can't help but believe that in the long run England and France are too different to persist as a union in the Early Modern Era and definitely the Age of Nationalism. Its certainly likely by the time the two part ways though that the British Isles is fully under one power. That process of unification between England and Scotland would've been quicker without the French backing the Scots and one achieved through domination. The Kingdom of Scotland would no longer be distinct within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
As a true Angevin wank possibility, the Kings of the Union could themselves try to overpower the Austrians and gain favour with the electors and Papacy and claim the HRE themselves. You then have a possibility of a new Universal Empire forming in Europe which would overpower everyone of its neighbours and annex some of them like Hungary and Sicily. Culturally it would lean Francophone in diplomacy and high culture but would be split between Germanic and Romance with Celts and Magyars on the side.
Or not. The Burgundian state and other littorals of the German Sea would be interested to support any British rebels against this dual monarchy.
Why would the British rebel? The English populace and nobility never rebelled whenever the English kings were lords over the majority of the Western Frankish kingdom. Why now rebel, especially when they now have free access to the vast resources of France and the king of England likely shifts to continental issues and thus gives English nobles a free hand in the Isles.
They were talking about the Scots I think. Its possible that the Scots would receive support from the HRE but it probably wouldn't be as extensive nor overpower a combined Anglo-French effort to unite the British Isles.
Frankly, the royalty of the Dual-Monarchy, should simply ignore Scotland. If anything, permit the English nobles to deal with it and otherwise leave it be.
I think one of the problems with the beliefs that the union is bound to break is that it ignores the idea that English nobles may be granted vast estates in France, meaning they would then have a vested interest in maintaining the union.
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If the Plantagenets managed to gain and maintain control of France I could easily see the dynasty spending more and more time in France proper rather than England.
The end result, especially since the English nobility at the time is still very culturally French, would just assimilate back into France and France would become the primary Kingdom, England/Ireland/Wales would just be the junior partner(s).
The end result, especially since the English nobility at the time is still very culturally French, would just assimilate back into France and France would become the primary Kingdom, England/Ireland/Wales would just be the junior partner(s).
I think that should be noted that in this scenario aside that would be probably that the new kingdom would become in the hegenomic power in Italy.... But,specially important could be that , (imo) the OTL's dinastic marriage politics/alliances could be more than likely to be changed and reflect the new power balance...Thus, I would guess that all the European Royal's would want for theirs daughters/heirs to marriage in the Plantagenets... Given that would be possible to suppose that the OTL Habsburgs marriage politics would be altered, too... This would affect (butterflying) to the Iberian kingdoms, own, dinastic alliances/marriages...
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Couldn't English become to French what Norman was to English? IIRC there were already English settlers on Normandy, maybe they could influence a bit? Sure it probably wouldn't matter since France had a much bigger population than England, but you still have to consider that Henry V used propaganda saying that the French would destroy the English language, people could still hold to that idea, if French becomes the main language these people could rebel. What I think would happen is France would dominate the Union, but French would have a lot of influence from English and vice-versa, English could give gender to nouns and French could have a different counting system for example, the lands with coast on the English Channel would probably see much more intermingling of the languages. By the time of the Age of Nationalism there could have an "Angevin" or "Anglois" identity, a good King could make the nation stay together, difficult but possible.
I like this idea, though I think the 'Anglois/Angevin' identity would be limited to the major cities and mostly class based as well. The more urban and/or high ranked you are, the more likely it is that you would identify as Anglois, while the more rural and/or low ranked you are would see the regional identities be used.
It would see the peasant revolts of the era perhaps take a more 'regional'/'proto-nationalist' flavor rather than a religious one.
Yeah, but since the Industrial Revolution would come close to the Age of Nationalism it could even work in the union's favor. As for proto-nationalism, there would be revolts but I think they would be put down. Another interesting thing would be religion, since the English won because Henry V lived longer the War of the Roses would be butterflied away, no Henry VIII makes things difficult for a Protestant Union. I think there would be religious equality at the start of the 17th century, in France there was in OTL so it isn't a stretch.
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I was thinking about the middle ages in that post, I think if/when Protestantism happens and spreads that the personal union will basically rip itself apart.
If Edward III gains the French throne, he will annex Provence from Naples to France, as he gave his claims to Provence to John of Gaunt IOTL.
Ah, sorry. I think Protestantism will happen since what caused it didn't change, the union could see civil wars but it would only be destroyed if the division is between England/ the British isles and France, which isn't likely to happen because Henry VIII was the one who converted England and there were still Catholics even after his death, though if the French still despise the English it probably will.
And what happens once he starts centralizing his realms and demand greater contribution from his English subjects?
Add inevitable cultural alienation and confessional conflicts, and the result is a significant rebellion in England which the opponents of the Anglo-French dual monarchy would support.
Wouldn't that be less likely than IOTL?
After all, the Anglo-French monarchy would be more north-centric than the OTL French monarchy and have at least initially less authority in southern France.
It'd be a weird timeline for sure, no england messing about to stop strong powers from rising on the continent, a much richer france due to the wool trade in flanders and norther italy that they suddenly become a vital part in, it basically changes everything, the HRE may just be doomed at that point. The weirdest thing is that paradoxically, plantagenet victory may mean fhe death of english culture. We're talking about a demographic of 10 million and a demographic of barely a million now existing in the same state with very strong incentive to intermingle with each other due to aforementioned wool trade. Not to mention that the plantagenets would probably go back to their french speaking roots due to their need to keep the strong french nobility that spent an entiee century fighting them tooth and nail pacified
There appears to be a misconception here. The Plantagenets were scions of the Elder House of Anjou. Naples and Hungary were ruled by the Capetian House of Anjou. Totally unrelated genealogically.
Edit: In fact, as genuine male line descendants of Hugh Capet, they would have a solid claim to the French throne, and possible close ties with the dispossessed Valois
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