DBWI: Switch the Roles of Tolkien and Adolf Hitler

[the Imperium of Canada]

The recent discussion about how the Great War affected the soldiers that fought in it gave me a interesting if rather absurd idea.

What would it take to switch the roles of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien and Adolf Hitler?

Have Hitler attempt to build some idealized utopia on the corpses of millions and go down as one of the most evil men who has ever lived, while Tolkien becomes the father of modern fantasy.

It doesn't have to be a direct switch, e.g. Hitler doesn't necessarily have to be a rabid anti-industrialist.

 

[Kloka]

Tolkien did nothing wrong,and you know that. Reported.

(OOCbviously I didn’t report him,that was just part of my character)

 

[Dolan]

Without Hitler being so influential in fantasy works, Dwarves might stay depicted as neutral or even typically good Fantasy Race instead of the now common depiction of being greedy, backstabbing, grudge-bearing bastards who often raised to be the cliche "Evil Race" of the Fantasy World who have a bitter enmity against the Angelic, beautiful, and idealistic Elves and Ugly, yet hard-working and honest-to-a-fault Orcs.

 

[overoceans]

I'm wondering what sort of movement would want Hitler as a leader?

OTL, Tolkien leveraged his status as a settler born whitey into a career as a rabble-rouser, pushing for the retention of Britain's colonies in the 1930s, while somewhat incongruously also pushing a limited agrarian agenda on the home-front(Inklingism was never the most coherent ideology). All wrapped up in a package of folkloric mysticism and barely-disguised Catholicism(it's often forgotten thatTolkien was Catholic before converting to High Anglicanism for political reasons.) And the rest, as they say, is History.

Is there any potential for that kind of movement to develop in 1930s Germany?

 

[Dolan]

I'm wonder

Maybe if Germany lost the war at the first place, they might go into what was OTL Franco-British-Russian Period of Political turmoil, that a Street Artist Veteran could pick a political job instead of becoming a tabloid illustrator/writer.

But then, we'll lost Lord of The Swastika, The Goblins, The Riders of Isenburg, The Golden Halberdier, and many more fantasy works of the Swastikaverse that practically define fantasy literature of the 20th century and beyond.

 

[Whiteshore]

OTL, Tolkien leveraged his status as a settler born whitey into a career as a rabble-rouser, pushing for the retention of Britain's colonies in the 1930s, while somewhat incongruously also pushing a limited agrarian agenda on the home-front(Inklingism was never the most coherent ideology). All wrapped up in a package of folkloric mysticism and barely-disguised Catholicism(it's often forgotten thatTolkien was Catholic before converting to High Anglicanism for political reasons.) And the rest, as they say, is History.

And the blood of millions of Indians killed in the Indian War of Independence fighting for the freedom of India from British imperialism.

 

[Tales Weaver]

And the blood of millions of Indians killed in the Indian War of Independence fighting for the freedom of India from British imperialism.

This meant india unified without being divided per religious lines.

 

[the Imperium of Canada]

(OOC: I was personally imagining TTL Tolkien to be something of a British Pol Pot hence the mention of Hitler not necessarily having to be a rabid anti-industrialist)

 

[Whiteshore]

This meant india unified without being divided per religious lines.

For Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs bonded over a shared experience fighting the British Empire and a Pan-Indian identity was forged in the trenches as Indians of all religions and castes from all walks of life fought for Indian independence.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

For Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs bonded over a shared experience fighting the British Empire and a Pan-Indian identity was forged in the trenches as Indians of all religions and castes from all walks of life fought for Indian independence.

Yet if British won the Great War, we could argue that there would be no Indian Independence movement at the first place, for even the exhausted, financially-strapped White Kingdoms of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand still stick with their British Isles overlord and managed to stay as a Great Power, even until now.

Without their humiliation in the Great War, Britain would be a theoretical "Superpower" instead.

 

[TheBalkanizer]

Well Hitler was apparently rabidly Anti Semetic and had odd ideas about Aryans or somesuch racial groups (kind of like a German version of Lovecraft tbh) so he could have based a political ideology on that

 

[Whiteshore]

Well Hitler was apparently rabidly Anti Semetic and had odd ideas about Aryans or somesuch racial groups (kind of like a German version of Lovecraft tbh) so he could have based a political ideology on that

Especially in a scenario where Germany lost the war and had a failed socialist revolution strike fear into the hearts of the German people like what happened in Britain.

 

[overoceans]

(OOC: I was personally imagining TTL Tolkien to be something of a British Pol Pot hence the mention of Hitler not necessarily having to be a rabid anti-industrialist)

OOC:

Yeah, I wasn't sure what you wanted to do with that. Thing is, if Tolkien is going to be Hitler in any sense besides just "killing a lot of people", he can't really be Pol Pot at the same time. Try to imagine pulling off Barbarossa and Year One similtaneously!

So I split the difference and made him a rhetorical anti-industrialist, with maybe a limited practical policy in that direction, but also a world-domination man(IOW more or less like our Hitler). Though I admit the prospect of Tolkien forcing the entire United Kingdom back to the shires at gunpoint is a tempting one!

 

[Whiteshore]

OOC:

Yeah, I wasn't sure what you wanted to do with that. Thing is, if Tolkien is going to be Hitler in any sense besides just "killing a lot of people", he can't really be Pol Pot at the same time. Try to imagine pulling off Barbarossa and Year One similtaneously!

So I split the difference and made him a rhetorical anti-industrialist, with maybe a limited practical policy in that direction, but also a world-domination man(IOW more or less like our Hitler). Though I admit the prospect of Tolkien forcing the entire United Kingdom back to the shires at gunpoint is a tempting one!

OOC: And I went with "Tolkien ITTL tries to hold on to India but leads to India having to gain its freedom in blood in a brutal war of independence".

 

[overoceans]

On a happier note, if the Inklings go the artistic route instead of the political one, what sort of literary collaboration could we see between Tolkien and C.S. Lewis?

OTL, Tolkien had Lewis and company taken out in The Witches' Sabbath Purge, partly because he thought they were too cozy with the low-church protestant faction that Tolkien distrusted, and also just because he thought Lewis moralizing in general could get in the way of political goals. But I could honestly have seen them doing some interesting stuff together, had they both focused on writing.

 

[Sriyam Swastik]

For Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs bonded over a shared experience fighting the British Empire and a Pan-Indian identity was forged in the trenches as Indians of all religions and castes from all walks of life fought for Indian independence.

It must have been strange for them. For decades the Brits were the "Modern" and "Advanced" industrialized civilization who sought to uplift the "backward" Indians. Now suddenly the tables are turned, it is Indians, like Tagore and Tata that preached modernity and liberal nationalism, while the overseas British government and collaborators like Gandhi want to burn the cities, return to the fields and eliminate nationalism from the heart and mind of India.

 

[redjirachi]

To achieve something like this, you'd need to have the Central Powers lose the Great War to have something as big as "England is willing to embrace a dictator" happen.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

Especially in a scenario where Germany lost the war and had a failed socialist revolution strike fear into the hearts of the German people like what happened in Britain.

To achieve something like this, you'd need to have the Central Powers lose the Great War to have something as big as "England is willing to embrace a dictator" happen.

Maybe if Britain won the war and Germany lose ITTL, their position could be swapped off, with Britain becoming the shinning beacon of science, arts, and literature while Germany falls into deep economic crisis who enabled Tolkien-esque Dictator to rise at the first place.

Well, I could see why the OP think Tolkien and Hitler could be swapped as they do have shared a similar artistic background, Hitler started his writing career because he was employed as Der Sturm's illustrator and his first notable work, Die Kobolde (The Goblins) was started as weekly Sunday Comic instead of the novel format we all knew today (that were actually the novelization of those comics). We all knew that Tolkien does enjoy painting as his pastime, and has linguistic education before the start of the Great War.

Maybe we'll got more about Anglo-Saxon and Welsh inspired fantasy rather than Hitler's German-myth inspired fantasy?

 

[Dolan]

Tolkien does enjoy painting as his pastime, and has linguistic education before the start of the Great War.

Exactly, Tolkien has proper linguistic background and thus, could be more readily read the original sources of the mythology instead of relying on secondhand translation like Hitler.

Goblins and Orcs would stayed as evil monstrous creatures like their etymological roots instead of the Hitlerean interpretation of them being Green-skinned, thinly veiled expies of Chinese and Indians. But then we'll sorely missed the queue-haired, mischievous little Goblin brats and the Orcish noble Savages.

...

Yes, we all knew very well that Hitler made Dwarves into short, stocky, backstabbing and untrustworthy race that is obviously Jews in all but names and their Skaven slaves were obviously jabs at capitalist wage-slaves who worked like rats. Maybe in a timeline where Hitler and Tolkien's careers being swapped, Tolkien (who deems Jews as fellow Whites and didn't have problem with capitalism until much later), would made Dwarves and Skavens in a more heroic mold while Goblins and Orcs took the Villainous role.

 

[blsssd]

Just speculating, but maybe if the Central Powers lost WW1, and France, Britain and Russia werent so badly hurt, the Kaiser could have left the throne earlier, and maybe (Similar to TTL) Hitler came into power? I doubt that someone like Hitler could be a mass murderer (Though there was quite a bit of anti-semitism in his earlier books). Maybe he could become a political leader after he fails art school?