Pride Goes Before a Fall: A Revolutionary Greece Timeline

[Hertog Jann]

May I instigate a discussion on the effects of the last update to the Albanian National Awakening?

The POD is 20 years before the onset of Albanian Nationalism. Albania is a diverse country: One can say that the two different dialects, tosk and gheg, separate the north and south. The tosk south is orthodox and bektashi while the gheg north catholic and sunni. An Albanian of Argyrokastro or Valona can hold a conversation with an Arvanite from Athens better than with an Albanian from Kosovo. The bektashi with some christian rituals, alcohol drinking and pork eating are not considered muslims by many sunnis. There was also veneration of some christian saints and in modern Albania bektashis intermarry with christians. The greek state will give some thought on the bektashis, as a lot of greek-speaking muslims belong to the denomination.

It is 1858 and the orthodox and bektashi Albanians will have greek public education, decades before the OTL opening of the first albanian school.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Albania_%25_Orthodox_Christian_early_1900s.png

File:Albania confessional map with regions circa 1900.PNG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Albanian dialects - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bektashis: A Sufi community that still stands for tolerance despit

The Bektashi Order is a Sufi Islamic creed with a long mystic tradition in Albania. Espoused by the Janissaries, the elite soldiers of the Ottoman Empire largely recruited from Christian areas of the Balkans. The Sufi faith does not force devotees to observe the basics of traditional Islam.

www.euronews.com

 

[Bloodmage]

Ok call me stupid but is there a link to the vt-bam original map? I can see multiple threads with hundreds of pages but nowhere the end result. 😊

Here, the one I used is the Greece map in the Europe Column: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-vt-bam-project.427414/page-75#post-17525225

 

[Gian]

Yeah it’s gonna take some sort of Balkan’s war analog or for the Greeks to attach themselves to the coat tails of another great power that decides to take a bite out of the Ottomans before Greece grows much. Unless Greece wants to try its hand at colonizing. Which could be interesting.

Greek Congo maybe?

Looks like we might break out the immortal line from Patríkios Loumoummpa from 1960: "Δεν είμαστε πλέον οι πίθηκοί σας." /"Den eínaste pléon i píthikí sas." (We are no longer your monkeys.)

 

[Hertog Jann]

Greek Congo maybe?

I think it is ASB...
The only colonial adventure that was given any thought in OTL was Cyrenaica, due to its proximity, strategic location, low population density for settling farmers and sponge fishing.

 

[Bloodmage]

I think it is ASB...
The only colonial adventure that was given any thought in OTL was Cyrenaica, due to its proximity, strategic location, low population density for settling farmers and sponge fishing.

Yeah true,honestly greece can gain all the resources it needs from Britain and Russia(given the relation that it has with them)its not that difficult and it will be much better than engaging in expensive colonial ventures.

Furthermore I can see how such an action can spark outrage in the greek population("we overthrew the turks,so that we can overlord other ethnicities a world away")really if greece engages in colonial ventures it will be over islands that it can use as trade depots around the world and further its trading interests.

Dont get me wrong Greeks can understand Strategic and economic value and if there was such a colony they would perhaps acquire it,but why would they need colonies for prestige,The only prestige that they want is Rhomania,Konstantinoupolis

I can see some lease happen with Ethiopia given that they are both Christian nations,where greece helps Ethiopia modernise and Ethiopia gives trading privileges to greek merchants.(though such a thing would probably be unlikely given that there are other much better alternatives (ie britain,france) ).

 

[Lascaris]

I think it is ASB...
The only colonial adventure that was given any thought in OTL was Cyrenaica, due to its proximity, strategic location, low population density for settling farmers and sponge fishing.

And that only very limited thought. Although back in shwi-isot I had created a Greek Congo. Or the beginnings of one anyway. 🙄

 

[danybhoy]

So, is Sazan still greek after the changes in the map?

 

[Bloodmage]

Will the Japanese embassy to Europe pass by Greece given that it is quite the Trade giant in the European Markets(hellenic steamship company)?
Cultivating a relationship with an ascendant oriental power is something that greece ought to do

First Japanese Embassy to Europe (1862) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Knightmare]

Yeah it’s gonna take some sort of Balkan’s war analog or for the Greeks to attach themselves to the coat tails of another great power that decides to take a bite out of the Ottomans before Greece grows much. Unless Greece wants to try its hand at colonizing. Which could be interesting.

Problem is, there's only so much land you can take from the Ottomans before they start feeling threatened. Existentially threatened. And Britain also has to weigh that, well, the value in upsetting the balance of power in the region. They have no issues with Greece reclaiming historically claimed lands, but there's a limit to that.

It would be interesting to see whether the muslim population of Epirus will stay or migrate. I would say that the muslim burghers of Ioannina, being greek speakers and educated in greek schools will stay. Regarding the rest, the element most prone to depart could be sunni muslims, while the bektashi that have common customs with the christians (e.g. alcohol consumption) are more prone to stay.

Depends on how the locals react to them.

 

[Hertog Jann]

Depends on how the locals react to them.

In OTL 1912 there were 43k muslims in Epirus. By 1920 there were around 19,5k. After the peace of 1913 and before WW1 (when the borders closed), 2,3k muslims chose to leave. Another 1,6k left in 1918-1923. Therefore, the majority of the departed muslims left their homes during the wartime months of 1912-1913 in fear of an approaching greek army.

Under the 1913 Treaty of Athens between Greece and the OE, the muslim citizens had 3 years to choose between adopting greek or ottoman citizenship. Those who remained ottoman citizens were to be expelled, while having a right to get with them their movable property and sell their land and houses. The Venizelos government launched a campaign to persuade muslims to stay and adopt the greek citizenship, as it was considered beneficial for the economy.

After 1913 the greek sharecroppers-serfs tried to have the chifliks of muslim landlords be parcelled to them. However, the greek government took the side of the muslim landlords. Now that Epirus is in rebel hands, I think the chifliks there will have the fate of the thessalian ones. Even then, Thessaly saw far more violence than Epirus were things remained peaceful.

Therefore, the only strife in Epirus was not nationalistic or religious but class struggle, with christian serfs against muslim landlords. At the same the strife in Thessaly was between christian serfs and christian landlords.

source: a masters thesis in greek unfortunately

https://www.academia.edu/35871418/%CE%9C%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9_%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD_%CE%99%CF%89%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BD

 

[Knightmare]

source: a masters thesis in greek unfortunately
https://www.academia.edu/35871418/Μουσουλμανοι_των_Ιωαννιν

Sorry, it's all Greek to me.

More seriously, not loading, but hey, you're the expert on it. So not a issue, good to know.

 

[Hertog Jann]

@Knightmare it is loading, you have to give it some time. It seems a pretty good dissertation, as it has for e.g. photos of the original document that lists the names of the 1600 muslims who departed after 1918, handwritten by the mufti of Ioannina.

 

[Dragon11926]

Will Greece be making a lot of money from supplying the British?

 

[Asriellian]

Looks like we're gonna have a pretty strong Greece then. Excited to see how things go from here; not just in Greece but with Persia, the bigger Netherlands, and Hungary as well

 

[Hertog Jann]

Will Greece be making a lot of money from supplying the British?

Without the French in the game, the British have to find alternate sources of supplies, ranging from fodder to food, alcohol or canvas. Everything the British need must either come from Britain or bought locally. Normally, the OE could provide the vast majority of british needs, but now with the battles fought in imperial territory and the need to massively expand and supply its army, I guess they cannot provide for the British as well. Lastly, the british will have to use the greek ports and charter greek merchantmen for logistics. Without the French, the British will have to either pull out more of their own merchantment from their lucrative trade routes or charter greek ships to support the Black Sea theater. I guess many Greek shipowners will make a fortune hauling cargo for Old Albion.

 

[Daylight Savings]

With the Greeks providing copious supplies to the British, what are the chances that many veterans pick up a taste for Greek wine or even ouzo?

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

Will the Japanese embassy to Europe pass by Greece given that it is quite the Trade giant in the European Markets(hellenic steamship company)?
Cultivating a relationship with an ascendant oriental power is something that greece ought to do

First Japanese Embassy to Europe (1862) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That wasn't the first embassy of Japan in Europe.

The first was the Tensho Embassy that visited Portugal, Spain and Rome in 1582 headed by Mancio Itō: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshō_embassy

The second was Keicho Embassy to Spain in 1613 headed by Hasekura Tsunenaga: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

I think is very frequent in anglophone media to show the history that suits the same anglo-centric vision of the world.

 

[Bloodmage]

That wasn't the first embassy of Japan in Europe.

The first was the Tensho Embassy that visited Portugal, Spain and Rome in 1582 headed by Mancio Itō: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshō_embassy

The second was Keicho Embassy to Spain in 1613 headed by Hasekura Tsunenaga: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga

I think is very frequent in anglophone media to show the history that suits the same anglo-centric vision of the world.

it was the first embassy to Europe after the sakoku period thougth,and the wikipedia states that it was the third mission despite the name

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

Q

it was the first embassy to Europe after the sakoku period thougth,and the wikipedia states that it was the third mission despite the name

Exactly. Don't you think is a bit a bit odd that an article titled "First Japanese Embassy in Europe" ends telling that really was the third?

It's like telling that Graham Bell invented the telephone and finally stating that really was Antonio Meuzzi.

 

[cmakk1012]

Been away for a little while, but damn has Greece been busy! That’s one hell of a land grab from the Ottomans—the Ionians we all expected, but Thessaly? Epirus? They got really lucky.

Lucky enough that I really want to say that I expect the Ottomans to react to the changed situation, rather significantly. IOTL the divvying up of Ottoman Europe, negotiated by great powers, didn’t even begin until 1878. Here it’s twenty years earlier, and arguably in more core territory; Yanina at least was at one point a rather significant part of the Empire. Losing all of this territory, without even fighting for it mind you, should cause something of a panic in Kostantiniyye. I understand they’re not in a position to do anything about it right now, but once the war’s over I would not be surprised to see an earlier rise of Young Turks, or something like them.

May I instigate a discussion on the effects of the last update to the Albanian National Awakening?

The POD is 20 years before the onset of Albanian Nationalism. Albania is a diverse country: One can say that the two different dialects, tosk and gheg, separate the north and south. The tosk south is orthodox and bektashi while the gheg north catholic and sunni. An Albanian of Argyrokastro or Valona can hold a conversation with an Arvanite from Athens better than with an Albanian from Kosovo. The bektashi with some christian rituals, alcohol drinking and pork eating are not considered muslims by many sunnis. There was also veneration of some christian saints and in modern Albania bektashis intermarry with christians. The greek state will give some thought on the bektashis, as a lot of greek-speaking muslims belong to the denomination.

It is 1858 and the orthodox and bektashi Albanians will have greek public education, decades before the OTL opening of the first albanian school.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Albania_%25_Orthodox_Christian_early_1900s.png

File:Albania confessional map with regions circa 1900.PNG - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Albanian dialects - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bektashis: A Sufi community that still stands for tolerance despit

The Bektashi Order is a Sufi Islamic creed with a long mystic tradition in Albania. Espoused by the Janissaries, the elite soldiers of the Ottoman Empire largely recruited from Christian areas of the Balkans. The Sufi faith does not force devotees to observe the basics of traditional Islam.

www.euronews.com

I decided to look this up a little bit, and although it’s true that the Albanian national movement hadn’t really hit its stride yet some sources say it had already begun as an intellectual movement in the 1830s-40s, much like elsewhere in the Balkans. However, it’s definitely early enough in the timeline to affect it significantly, and I can see something of a path forward where the southern Albanians end up courted by the Greek cultural sphere and join their Souliote cousins in assimilating without too much issue. On the other hand, the diehard Albanian nationalists that will inevitably exist eventually will claim all of the Albanian-speaking land, and I can see TTL’s debate of the Albanian national identity focused on its northern half. If we want to get really weird—a conflict between Greece and Serbia over it?