List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[Jonathan]

Question: let's say Alexandra of Denmark was persuaded / forced / your verbage here to allow Princess Victoria of Wales to marry. Who could she conceivably marry? I know Carlos I of Portugal supposedly asked for her hand but I don't see a Catholic marriage for the daughter of the future king flying. Any ideas?

What about a British marriage? Potential husbands:
- Adolphus Cambridge, Duke of Teck later became 1st Marquess of Cambridge (brother of Mary of Teck and son of Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge)
- Henry Fitzalan-Howard, 15th Duke of Norfolk, widowed in 1887.
- Victor Cavendish, 9th Duke of Devonshire
- John Montagu Douglas Scott, 7th Duke of Buccleuch

To name a few potential husband.

 

[dragonstoned]

To be fair, Richard de la Pole nearly got Dorothea of Denmark (OTL ducehss of Prussia, and at the time, a reigning king's daughter), so Marge might even be too low by comparison. What's weird to me is the match to Anne of Brittany. A nicer way would've been for Will (weird name choice, BTW, Henry, Edmund would be likelier IMO) to wed Katherine of York. But then again, given that they recommended the duke of Buckingham marry Anne of Brittany (I assume because Henry VII had a lack of other suitable candidates) I suppose her wedding Will isn't that odd.

Right, but the marriage failed despite the support of Francis I, likely due to Richard's shaky position of claimant exile at French court. Also Dorothea of Denmark is a good match indeed, but she is not the Holy Roman Emperor's sister. Thanks for bringing her up, she might actually be the perfect match for Henry in this universe!

You're about right Anne of Brittany marrying William. To be honest I find it quite odd as well, but with the right timing and circunstances it could happen, I don't it's nearly as ASB as Henry's match to Eleanor.

 

[isabella]

POD: Henry Tudor marries the "Breton lady" who has a son before dying of childed fever. If people are interested in the story, I might make this an official timeline.
King Henry Tudor VII (1457-1509) m. Madeleine de Velville (Unknown-1474) (a) Elizabeth of York (1466-1503) (b).

1a. William Tudor, Prince of Wales, later King William III "the Bloody Bastard" Tudor. (1474-1535) m. Anne of Brittany (1477-1504) (a). Katherine of Aragon(1485-1517). (c) Elizabeth Stafford (1499-1558).​

2b. Arthur Tudor, Duke of York (1486-1502).​

3b. Maragert Tudor, Queen of Scots (1489-1541).​

4b. Henry Tudor "the Princely Pretender" Duke of Somerset (1491-1527) m. Eleanor of Austria (1498-1558).​

5b. Elizabeth Tudor (1492-1495).​

6b. Madeleine Tudor (1496-1533).​

7b. Edward Tudor (1498).​

8b. Edmund Tudor, Duke of Richmond (1499-1500).​

9b. Katherine Tudor (1503-1503).​

​

Totally ASB. No way in the hell who Henry Tudor is able to get the English Crown if he is unable to marry Elizabeth of York or have her son as successor... The Edwardian Yorkists will choose someone else or leave the Crown to Richard III (Manuel of Beja, first cousin and brother-in-law of the King of Portugal AND first cousin of the Queen of Castile (and Aragon) is not a bad match in the end, and while Cecily is ruined, Anne has a decent engagement and likely Katherine‘s match will be similar to Anne’s)

 

[FalconHonour]

Totally ASB. No way in the hell who Henry Tudor is able to get the English Crown if he is unable to marry Elizabeth of York or have her son as successor... The Edwardian Yorkists will choose someone else or leave the Crown to Richard III (Manuel of Beja, first cousin and brother-in-law of the King of Portugal AND first cousin of the Queen of Castile (and Aragon) is not a bad match in the end, and while Cecily is ruined, Anne has a decent engagement and likely Katherine‘s match will be similar to Anne’s)

But he is marrying Elizabeth of York. Madeline dies in 1474 of childbed fever, so Elizabeth will be his Queen. Her son might not be Prince of Wales, but then plenty of Princesses marry widowed Kings without a murmur, even if their sons will never be the senior lines to the throne. I have more of a problem with Henry, Duke of Somerset marrying Eleanor of Austria, she's too high-born for him. Someone like Marguerite de Angouleme or Suzanne de Bourbon would be much more likely. Or maybe an Italian girl, like Eleanora Gonzaga.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

and while Cecily is ruine

Why is Cecily ruined? Sorry, having one of those days

 

[Brita]

POD: Henry Tudor marries the "Breton lady" who has a son before dying of childed fever. If people are interested in the story, I might make this an official timeline.
King Henry Tudor VII (1457-1509) m. Madeleine de Velville (Unknown-1474) (a) Elizabeth of York (1466-1503) (b).

1a. William Tudor, Prince of Wales, later King William III "the Bloody Bastard" Tudor. (1474-1535) m. Anne of Brittany (1477-1504) (a). Katherine of Aragon(1485-1517). (c) Elizabeth Stafford (1499-1558).​

2b. Arthur Tudor, Duke of York (1486-1502).​

3b. Maragert Tudor, Queen of Scots (1489-1541).​

4b. Henry Tudor "the Princely Pretender" Duke of Somerset (1491-1527) m. Eleanora Gonzaga (1493-1570).​

5b. Elizabeth Tudor (1492-1495).​

6b. Madeleine Tudor (1496-1533).​

7b. Edward Tudor (1498).​

8b. Edmund Tudor, Duke of Richmond (1499-1500).​

9b. Katherine Tudor (1503-1503).​

​

Please do. It's sounds really interesting.

 

[Brita]

Kingdom of Britannia, Empire of Albion

House of Vortigern:-

1. Vortigern (391 AD - 460 AD) (reign: 420 AD - 453 AD) (spouse: 1. Catigern, 2. Rowena); High King of the Britons.
2. Vortimer (416 AD - 466 AD) (reign: 453 AD - 460 AD) (spouse: None); High King of the Britons

House of Aurelianus.

1. Ambrosius Aurelianus 'The Founder' (411 AD - 478 AD) (reign: 460 AD - 478 AD) (spouse: Ingraine Ambrosius); King of Britannia
2. Artorius Draconis Aurelianus. (446 AD - 508 AD) (reign: 479 AD - 508 AD) (spouse: Diana) ; King of Britannia
3. Artorius Lucius Aurelianus 'The Savior' (479 AD - 542 AD) (reign: 508 AD - 542 AD) (spouse: Gwennyth); King of Britannia
4. Septimius Gratianus Aurelianus. (498 AD - 553 AD) (reign: 542 AD - 553 AD) (spouse: Artemisia); King of Britannia
5. Thedosius Aurelianus 'The Scholar' (524 AD - 592 AD) (reign: 553 AD - 592 AD) (spouse: Rowena); King of Britannia
6. Ambrosius II Aurelianus (546 AD - 604 AD) (reign: 592 AD - 604 AD) (spouse: Aife); King of Britannia
7. Septimius II Aurelianus (568 AD - 630 AD) (reign: 604 AD - 630 AD) (spouse: Boudicca); King of Britannia
8. Artorius II Aurelianus 'The Great' (593 AD - 667 AD) (reign: 630 AD - 667 AD) (spouse: Brenyn); King of Britannia
9. Ambrosius III Aurelianus (621 AD - 671 AD) (reign: 667 AD - 671 AD) (spouse: Cordelia); King of Britannia
10. Theodosius II Aurelianus (647 AD - 696 AD) (reign: 671 AD - 696 AD) (spouse: Diva); King of Britannia
11. Lucius Verus Aurelianus 'The Fat' (672 AD - 728 AD) (reign: 696 AD - 728 AD) (spouse: Erna); King of Britannia
12. Artorius III Aurelianus 'The Cruel' (694 AD - 730 AD) (reign: 728 AD - 730 AD) (spouse: Glema): King of Britannia
13. Theodosius III Aurelianus 'The Magnificent' (729 AD - 791 AD) (reign: 730 AD - 791 AD) (spouse: Jeneva); King of Britannia, Emperor of Albion
14. Ambrosius IV Aurelianus 'The Decadent' (753 AD - 816 AD) (reign: 791 AD - 816 AD) (spouse: Gwenytth); King of Britannia, Emperor of Albion
15. Septimius III Aurelianus 'The Unlucky' (779 AD - 824 AD) (reign: 816 AD - 824 AD) (spouse: Elma); King of Britannia, Emperor of Albion
16. Artorius IV Aurelianus 'The Warrior' (805 AD - 881 AD) (reign: 824 AD - 881 AD) (spouse: Kylea); King of Britannia, Emperor of Albion
17. Queen Kari Aurelianus 'The Stout' (836 AD - 891 AD) (reign: 881 AD - 891 AD) (spouse: Philip; matrilineal marriage); Empress of Albion
18. Theodosius IV Aurelianus 'The Castrated' (857 AD - (reign: 891 AD - 916 AD) (spouse: Helga); King of Britannia, Emperor of Albion

House of Aberffraw

1. Idwal Foel 'The Restorer' (876 AD - 939 AD) (reign: 928 AD - 939 AD) (spouse: Gwenyth); King of Britannia, Emperor of Albion
2. Owain Gwynned 'The Lackluster' (900 AD - 956 AD) (reign: 939 AD - 956 AD) (spouse: Mari); King of Britannia, Emperor of Albion
3. Rhodri ab Owain Gwynned 'The Great' (934 AD - 987 AD) (reign: 956 AD - 987 AD) (spouse: Boudica); Emperor of Albion and Eire.
4. Boudicca ab Rhodri Gwynned 'The Empress' (959 AD - 1023 AD) (reign: 987 AD - 1023 AD) (spouse: Owain); Empress of Albion and Eire.
5. Llywelyn ab Boudicca Gwynned 'The Black' (981 AD - 1026 AD) (reign: 1023 AD - 1026 AD) (spouse: Sara); Emperor of Albion and Eire.
6. Hywel ab Llywelyn Gwynned 'The Unfortunate' (1004 AD - 1077 AD) (reign: 1026 AD - 1077 AD) (spouse: Gwyneth); Emperor of Albion and Eire



Just something on my mind.

Interesting, though are we sure Aurelianus had a son named Artorius? I may be quite mad about the Arthurian legend, but I don't know much about this period of Briton history.
Artorius's birth can be the POD of course.

BTW, Boudicca would be Boudicca verch Rhodri.

 

[Sarthak]

Interesting, though are we sure Aurelianus had a son named Artorius? I may be quite mad about the Arthurian legend, but I don't know much about this period of Briton history.
Artorius's birth can be the POD of course.

BTW, Boudicca would be Boudicca verch Rhodri.

Apparently he either had an adopted one or a one night stand with a princess gave him one. Sources differ on that.

Thanks for that last one

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Right, but the marriage failed despite the support of Francis I, likely due to Richard's shaky position of claimant exile at French court

Actually, the marriage failed because Richard got himself killed at Pavia AIUI. No other reason.

 

[dragonstoned]

Actually, the marriage failed because Richard got himself killed at Pavia AIUI. No other reason.

Right, he died two years after in 1525, forgot about that.

 

[The Professor]

BTW, Boudicca would be Boudicca verch Rhodri.

Technically in Modern Welsh it would be "ferch Rhodri". In Early Middle Welsh you could be looking at "ferk Rodri" depending on spelling. Of course in the ATL it's unlikely to be any form of Welsh since OTL Wales was the periphery and not the centre of power. TTL Modern Brython could be more like Cornish or Breton.

 

[Kynan]

Scenario: James VI is born a girl.

Mary I, Queen of Scotland (b.1542: d.1587) m. Francis II, King of France (b.1544: d.1560) (a), Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley (b.1545: d.1567) (b), James Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell (c.1534: d.1578) (c)

1b) Mary II, Queen of England, Ireland Scotland (b.1566: d.1604) m. John Stewart, Earl of Atholl (b.1563: d.1595) (a), John Sigismund of Brunswick-Lüneburg (b.1568: d.1623) (b)​

​

1a) Mary Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1585: d.1617) m. Henri IV, King of France (b.1553: d.1610) (a)​

​

1a) Elisabeth, Princess of France (b.1602)​

​

2a) Louis XII, King of France (b.1604)​

​

3a) Stillborn Son (c.1605)​

​

4a) Nicholas, Duke of Orleans (b.1607)​

​

5a) Catherine, Princess of France (b.1608)​

​

6a) Francois, Prince of France (b.1609: d.1610)​

​

7a) Marie, Princess of France (b.1610)​

​

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1587)​

​

3a) Elizabeth Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1588: d.1615) m. Frederick Ulrich, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (b.1591: d.1634) (a)​

​

1a) Eleanor of Brunswick-Lüneburg (b.1610)​

​

2a) Sophia of Brunswick-Lüneburg (b.1613)​

​

4a) James Stewart, Duke of Rothesay (b.1590: d.1597)​

​

5a) John II, King of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1591: d.1650) m. Maria Eleonora of Brandenburg (b.1599: d.1655) (a)​

​

1a) John Stewart, Prince of Wales (b.1621: d.1622)​

​

2a) Stillborn Son (c.1623)​

​

3a) James I, King of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1626)​

​

4a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1627)​

​

5a) Catherine, Princess of England, Ireland and Scotland (b.1630)​

​

6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1592)​

​

7a) Margaret Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1594: d.1595)​

​

8a) Barbara Stewart, Princess of Scotland (b.1595: d.1615) m. William Douglas, Marquess of Douglas (b.1589: d.1660) (a)​

​

1a) George Douglas, Duke of Bedford and Earl of Douglas (b.1614)​

​

9b) Charles of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Duke of Albany (b.1597: d.1645) m. Margaret Hamilton (c.1595: d.1630) (a), Presela Grey (b.1615: d.1678) (b)​

​

1a) Elizabeth of Albany (b.1620)​

​

2a) Mary of Albany (b.1622: d.1630)​

​

3a) Margaret of Albany (b.1623)​

​

4a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1624)​

​

5a) Barbara of Albany (b.1626)​

​

6a) James of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Duke of Albany (b.1627)​

​

7a) Frances of Albany (b.1628)​

​

8b) George of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Marquis of Pembroke (b.1632)​

​

9b) Patience of Albany (b.1634)​

​

10b) Stillborn Son (c.1635)​

​

11b) Helen of Albany (b.1636)​

​

12b) Lionel of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Earl of Lincoln (b.1638)​

​

13b) Beatrice of Albany (b.1640: d.1640)​

​

14b) Jane of Albany (b.1641)​

​

15b) Joyce of Albany (b.1643)​

​

16b) Christian of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Earl of St. James (b.1644: d.1667)​

​

17b) Stillborn Son (c.1645)​

​

18b) Emilia of Albany (b.1646)​

​

10b) Stillborn Son (c.1598)​

​

11b) Sigismund of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Duke of Ross (b.1600: d.1635) m. Priscilla Grey (c.1601: d.1644) (a)​

​

1a) Stillborn Son (c.1620)​

​

2a) Henry of Brunswick-Lüneburg (b.1623: d.1623)​

​

3a) Stillborn Son (c.1628)​

​

12b) Anne of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Princess of Scotland (b.1603: d.1621) m. Christian, Prince-Elect of Denmark (b.1603: d.1647) (a)​

​

- had no issue​

​

13b) Stillborn Son (c.1604)​

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Would you mind giving me a link? Dormant or not, I'd like to read it.

The Red Princess in my sig

 

[isabella]

But he is marrying Elizabeth of York. Madeline dies in 1474 of childbed fever, so Elizabeth will be his Queen. Her son might not be Prince of Wales, but then plenty of Princesses marry widowed Kings without a murmur, even if their sons will never be the senior lines to the throne. I have more of a problem with Henry, Duke of Somerset marrying Eleanor of Austria, she's too high-born for him. Someone like Marguerite de Angouleme or Suzanne de Bourbon would be much more likely. Or maybe an Italian girl, like Eleanora Gonzaga.

I said OR have Elizabeth’s son as successor. Plenty of princesses married widowed Kings sure, but Elizabeth of York is the heiress of the Yorkist claim and Henry Tudor only a pretender with a very shaky claim AND a son. Supporting him as King made no sense for the Edwardian Yorkists here (for what reason do you believe who Henry sweared in the Church to marry Elizabeth of York (or Cecily if Elizabeth was unavailable) before trying to invade England? An Henry Tudor with a legitimate son who is able to get the English crown is pure ASB... Eleanor of Austria‘s match is pretty ASB but is explainable if Charles V support Henry Tudor (heir of Elizabeth of York) as legitimate King against his half-brother and remember who in OTL the widowed Eleanor was engaged to Charles de Bourbon, when the Connestable betrayed the French King for the Emperor

Why is Cecily ruined? Sorry, having one of those days

Cecily had already married her first husband (and no way THAT wedding was never consummated) and he was a younger son of a minor noble and supporter of Richard III, so a very bad match for her (as princess, but adequate for an illegitimate daughter/niece of a King)

 

[Kynan]

You know what might be suggested? William Tudor to Elizabeth of York. They're 8 years apart in age, which is a decent sized gap, but Elizabeth's mother and grandmother were both having children into their 40s and she is the link needed for the Lancastrian/Yorkist line to be united, which has to be in the main line. Hell, it makes sense if they also have Henry VII remain single until the wedding (maybe under the pretense that he's genuinely grieving for his bride still) so that, if William dies young, Henry can marry Elizabeth and save the alliance. Then, when William is safely married, he marries whoever (dealer's choice) and that's how you get the rival line to the throne. Yeah, WE know Elizabeth OTL died in her late 30's and didn't have a track record to match her mother or grandmother in terms of conception, but they all don't. By 1490 she's only 24, her husband will be 16. Hell, it's very much like what happened to Catherine of Aragon. Then, maybe, Henry marries some other Princess with Yorkist blood (maybe Margaret of Clarence or a de la Pole daughter) and keeps it chugging along.

 

[Brita]

Technically in Modern Welsh it would be "ferch Rhodri". In Early Middle Welsh you could be looking at "ferk Rodri" depending on spelling. Of course in the ATL it's unlikely to be any form of Welsh since OTL Wales was the periphery and not the centre of power. TTL Modern Brython could be more like Cornish or Breton.

True! I was muddling up Middle and Modern Welsh🤪

 

[FalconHonour]

You know what might be suggested? William Tudor to Elizabeth of York. They're 8 years apart in age, which is a decent sized gap, but Elizabeth's mother and grandmother were both having children into their 40s and she is the link needed for the Lancastrian/Yorkist line to be united, which has to be in the main line. Hell, it makes sense if they also have Henry VII remain single until the wedding (maybe under the pretense that he's genuinely grieving for his bride still) so that, if William dies young, Henry can marry Elizabeth and save the alliance. Then, when William is safely married, he marries whoever (dealer's choice) and that's how you get the rival line to the throne. Yeah, WE know Elizabeth OTL died in her late 30's and didn't have a track record to match her mother or grandmother in terms of conception, but they all don't. By 1490 she's only 24, her husband will be 16. Hell, it's very much like what happened to Catherine of Aragon. Then, maybe, Henry marries some other Princess with Yorkist blood (maybe Margaret of Clarence or a de la Pole daughter) and keeps it chugging along.

Now that, I like That works for me!

 

[isabella]

You know what might be suggested? William Tudor to Elizabeth of York. They're 8 years apart in age, which is a decent sized gap, but Elizabeth's mother and grandmother were both having children into their 40s and she is the link needed for the Lancastrian/Yorkist line to be united, which has to be in the main line. Hell, it makes sense if they also have Henry VII remain single until the wedding (maybe under the pretense that he's genuinely grieving for his bride still) so that, if William dies young, Henry can marry Elizabeth and save the alliance. Then, when William is safely married, he marries whoever (dealer's choice) and that's how you get the rival line to the throne. Yeah, WE know Elizabeth OTL died in her late 30's and didn't have a track record to match her mother or grandmother in terms of conception, but they all don't. By 1490 she's only 24, her husband will be 16. Hell, it's very much like what happened to Catherine of Aragon. Then, maybe, Henry marries some other Princess with Yorkist blood (maybe Margaret of Clarence or a de la Pole daughter) and keeps it chugging along.

Now that, I like That works for me!

Still pretty unlikely to work for me. At that point Manuel of Beja is a better match for Elizabeth and if both Anne and Katherine married in the high nobility of England (and as Anne was already engaged to the heir of the Duke of Norfolk, we need only someone of similar age and rank for Katherine) and the Edwardian Yorkists would be likely placated...
In any case William‘s wedding to Elizabeth would be consummated as soon he is 14...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

My attempt at a different idea for the Low Countries, or Marguerite of Flanders is born male.
I didn't do the Burgundian side (except where it overlaps) because I can't think of a decent replacement wife for Philippe de Rouvres or Philippe le Hardi. Open to suggestions:

Louis III, Count of Flanders (1330-1384) m: 1344 Marguerite of Brabant (1323-1380)

Louis IV, Count of Flanders, Nevers & Rethel, Count of Artois, Count Palatine of Burgundy [1384-1396] (1350-1396) m: 1373 Jeanne de France (1351-1405)[1]

Jean, Duke of Brabant & Limburg[1400-1439] Count of Flanders, Nevers & Rethel, Count of Artois, Count Palatine of Burgundy [1396-1439] (1375-1439) 1m: 1393 Margarethe of the Palatinate (1376-1400); 2m: 1402 Jeanne of Luxembourg-Saint-Pôl, Comtesse de Ligny (1380-1407); 3m: 1409 Isabelle de Coucy, Comtesse de Soissons (1386-1420)​

[1m.] Jean, Hereditary Prince of Brabant (1395-1430) m: 1409 Bonne d'Artois (1396-1453)​

Jeanne (1417-1454) m: 1433 Richard, 2e Duke of Bedford (1415-1454) [2]​

Louis V, Duke of Brabant & Limburg, Count of Flanders [1439-] (1425-1488) 1m: 1449 Catherine de Valois (1428-1446); 2m: 1448 Mary of Scotland (1435-1465)​

[2m.] Bonne (1449-1512)​

[2m.] Charles, Hereditary Prince of Brabant (1451-1465)​

[2m.] Louis VI, Duke of Brabant & Limburg, Count of Flanders [1488-1490] (1452-1490) 1m: 1465 Anne of France (1450-1480)[3]; 2m: 1485 Isabella of Burgundy (1475-1504)​

[2m.] Louis VII, Duke of Brabant & Limburg, Count of Flanders [1490-1556] (1488-1456)​

[2m.] Stillborn Child (1490)​

[2m.] Marguerite (1455-1509) m: Edward IV, King of England [4] (1448-1501)​

[2m.] Jean, Regent of Brabant [1490-1495], Cardinal-Archbishop of Utrecht (1456-1523)​

[2m.] Jeanne (1459-1534)​

Anne (1430-1466) m: 1442 Philippe III, Duke of Burgundy (1420-1478)​

Jean (1445-1448)​

Charles II, Duke of Burgundy (1449-1483) m: Margaret of England [4] (1450-1479)​

Marguerite, Duchess of Burgundy [1483-1542] (1470-1542) m: 1494 Charles VIII, King of France (1466-1512) [5]​

Isabella (1472-1504) m: 1485 Louis VI, Duke of Brabant (1452-1490)​

[1m.] Isabelle (1396-1440)​

[2m.] Louis (1403-1404)​

[2m.] Charles, Comte de Ligny (1405-1410)​

[2m.] Jeanne, Comtesse de Ligny (1407-)​

Marguerite (1377-1402) m: 1395 Charles I, Duke of Lorraine (1364-)​

Stillborn Daughter (1378)​

Reinald (1381-1397)​

Jeanne (1382)​

Blanche (1382-1385)​

[1] daughter of Philippe VI and Blanche of Navarre
[2] the second duke of Bedford is the son of OTL John, Duke of Bedford and a Burgundian first wife. They have issue
[3] daughter of Louis XI and his Scots first wife, who lives a bit longer. Thereby allowing a Scots match for Brabant.
[4] children who doesn't get deposed, thanks to the Bedfords standing between he and the Beauforts/Yorks
[5] son of Louis XI's TTL son by his second wife, Leonor of Portugal, Louis XII (b.1455) and the daughter of Jeanne of Lorraine (b.1457) only surviving daughterof Jean II of Lorraine by his second wife, Catharina of Guelders (b.1439)

@isabella, @Zulfurium @Jan Olbracht @VVD0D95

 

[HortenseMancini]

@Kellan Sullivan Isabella of England would be of age with Philippe de Rouvres and Philippe le Hardi.