Slovak Rafales?I was hoping for Slovak SAAB Gripens myself, but oh well, maybe in the future...
Air and Space Photos from Alternate Worlds.
- Thread starter Wingman1
- Start date
Gripen. Humbler cuties always win out.
Needs of the country too. You might as well say we should buy F-22s. Nope. Gripens it is, if we ever switch from F-16s.
I always wondered what if the U.S. allowed the F-22 to be exported to allies.
I doubt anyone would buyt them... it's pretty much a one-trick poney (loing range air-air/interceptor) and extremely expensive, to buy and mantain; and has very limited air-ground capabilities. Japan might, to patrol it's sea approaches. Otherwise...
The JMSDF and JASDF use the F-35A/B variants. The F-35B would fit for JMSDF's Izumo-class carriers.
F-35 gives Japan the ability to project more power and it being on their Izumo-class carriers makes these helicopter carriers into Lightning carriers. It is also a loophole on Article 9 in which Japan cannot possess aircraft carriers.
But the question was on the F-22. The F-35 was developed from the start as multipurpose, so mission-wise it's far superior.
Stalin's Fords pt1
Link: www.whatifmodellers.com/index.…
Ford Aircraft Company of TransCaucasia-built Messerschmitt Bf 108F
Black 7985, Trud s eskadroy Yedinstva (Labour with Unity Squadron), Soviet TransCaucasian Army Air Force
Krasnodar, Soviet Socialist Republics of TransCaucasia (SSRT)-occupied Socialist Union, October 1941
In 1932 the American industrialist Henry Ford opened a Ford automobile factory at Tbilisi in the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, Soviet Socialist Republics of TransCaucasia (SSRT). The nation’s leader, Stalin, had invited Ford to the country in order to boost productivity through the establishment of modern assembly line management practices. Although mostly associated with automobiles (cars and trucks), Ford’s portfolio also included the Stout Metal Airplane Division of the Ford Motor Company, which in 1932 was winding down the production of its Trimotor transport in the face of dwindling orders. Realising the potential of the SSRT both as a market and as a location of cheap and obedient labour, Ford closed the Stout Division’s unprofitable production line in Detroit and relocated it to the SSRT as the Ford Tbilisi Airplane Division. More Trimotors followed, as did a series of original Ford and foreign designs built under licence. These included trainers, transports (modernised Trimotors) and tourers, sports planes and the Ford Vikhr' (Whirlwind) twin-engined fighter-bomber.
One of the designs licence-built by the Ford Tbilisi Airplane Division was the Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun touring monoplane. Messerschmitt and the RLM gave the out of order designation of Bf 108F to these in recognition of Henry Ford, who had been bestowed with the Grand Cross of the German Eagle by the Nazis. The first Ford Tbilisi Bf 108F flew in 1940 and 263 were built for domestic and export civilian and military customer before production ended in December 1943. Export customers included the Turkish Air Force (28 acquired in-lieu of deliveries from Messerschmitt during 1942), the Imperial Iranian Air Force (12) and the Afghan Air Force (6). Others were sold to civilian operators, including the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (2). Of interest is that 7 of the Imperial Iranian Air Force and both Anglo-Iranian Oil Company aircraft were impressed into RAF service as the Messerschmitt Aldon following the 1941 British invasion of Iran.
The Soviet TransCaucasian Army Air Force was the largest operator of the Bf 108F, using it for liaison and training duties. Many expeditionary fighter and bomber squadrons were issued with at least one Bf 108F as a unit hack and several were used by senior Soviet Army officers as personal transports.
Several historians have claimed that Henry Ford’s interests in the SSRT were reflected in American and British responses to Stalin’s 24 June 1941 invasion of the Socialist Union. He publically and privately lobbied for a lenient response to the SSRT. Although both Allied nations gave immense logistical support to the Moscow Pact war effort against the Axis, neither declared war against the SSRT but did enforce economic blockades. In this context, Ford reluctantly distanced himself and his company from Ford Tbilisi and publicly reduced his interest in the joint-venture company by selling his shareholding to the Soviet state. Ford was also forced to withdraw most of his expatriate workers from the SSRT, which significantly stymied further development of the company's local products. When Britain invaded Iran in August 1941 to open up an overland route for Lend-Lease deliveries, they made no move against the SSRT: the British Army simply stopped at the Iran-SSRT frontier, closed the border crossings and imposed a blockade. It later emerged that Britain was still purchasing petroleum products from the SSRT via Turkey. For its part, Turkey had promised to take direct action against any country that invaded the SSRT. This position fell apart when Turkey declared war on Germany and its Axis partners on 19 August 1944, just three days before Germany signed the Separate Peace (aka The Great Betrayal) with the Western Allies. Seizing the moment, the Red Army steamrolled the Soviet Army and in less than two months had liberated all of the SSRT from Stalin’s grip. The Turks remained silent and it was up to the British Army to open the border crossings for refugees.
In the race to explore and control the New Sol star system, the ISOT'd civilizations of Terra Nova have begun ranging further and further from the icy ball of rock they call Terra Nova. The United States spacecraft Dawnstar is depicted here on its shakedown cruise to Terra Nova's second moon Mysh', where it will conduct orbital tests and make observations before returning home to pick up a fresh crew and a lander. In the future, Dawnstar-class exploration vehicles like this one may take American astronauts even further into deep space. The warm ocean world of Poseidon with its smaller orbital radius, for example, has attracted much international attention due to its Earth-like atmosphere and apparent biosphere-- an attractive prospect for colonization, and certainly much more pleasant to humans than frozen, ice-coated Terra Nova, orbiting at the outer edges of New Sol's habitable zone.
Attached is an Apollo Block-III capsule and service-module pair, which serve as the escape and return vehicle for the four crew members stationed aboard Dawnstar.
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Imagine a world where the U.S. Coast Guard operates the Mi-24 "Hind".
This is an image from the Russian film Charged with Death where the Russian Navy and the USCG coordinate to hunt down for smugglers. Apparently, the Russian producers did not have access to American helicopters so they had to improvise similar to how American film companies had to improvise their own tanks, jeeps, and aircraft to resemble Russian ones.
Source: https://aviationhumor.net/mi-24-hind-us-coast-guard-colors/
Starforce
Banned
Launch day, February 23rd, 1962.
The famous Russian A1 rocket sits, hours away from being launched from its launch pad in Astrakhan, Russian Empire.
The day the Russian Empire and the Confederate States of America had launched their respective rockets, docked their crew capsules together on a moon mission for the Moscow-Richmond Understanding, and for humanity as a whole.
The Confederate 'Vulcan 4' Rocket lifting off, named after the planet Vulcan, the 2nd planet from the sun. Lifting off from Houston, Texas.
The most recent Confederate Landing on the Moon was in 2019, with the ongoing 'Altair' Program. Despite economic issues, the plan continued on and was a large success, noting humanity's return to space. Despite being in the mid 90's in terms of OTL tech, the world of the 'Silent War' has made more progress in manned and unmanned missions in space.
The famous Russian A1 rocket sits, hours away from being launched from its launch pad in Astrakhan, Russian Empire.
The day the Russian Empire and the Confederate States of America had launched their respective rockets, docked their crew capsules together on a moon mission for the Moscow-Richmond Understanding, and for humanity as a whole.
The Confederate 'Vulcan 4' Rocket lifting off, named after the planet Vulcan, the 2nd planet from the sun. Lifting off from Houston, Texas.
The most recent Confederate Landing on the Moon was in 2019, with the ongoing 'Altair' Program. Despite economic issues, the plan continued on and was a large success, noting humanity's return to space. Despite being in the mid 90's in terms of OTL tech, the world of the 'Silent War' has made more progress in manned and unmanned missions in space.
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Palestinian Helwan Ha-200R
Link: www.whatifmodellers.com/index.…
Helwan Ha-200R
a/c 408, Jabra Nicola Squadron
personal mount of Captain Tamer Saleh
Palestine Arab Republic AIr Force (PARAF)
Lod, Palestine, February, 1965
By early 1965 attempts to create a United Arab Federation (UAF) involving Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Palestine and Syria had reached a crisis point. Since 1957 the interim Arab Community (AC)had been tasked with fostering closer economic, political and military ties between its member nations, including administering a negotiated settlement to the West Bank issue. Occupied by Jordan during the 1948 Arab liberation of Palestine, it was annexed in 1950.
By 1965 Egypt had become the prime mover in the AC’s Mutual Defence Agreement, supplying equipment and training to the other AC states. Egypt’s Helwan military-industrial complex was vital to this status, building and exporting a wide range of weapons including T-54 and T55 tanks, the Helwan Ha-100 advanced jet trainer and its single-seat fighter derivative the Ha-200 and the licence-produced MiG-21F-13 Fishbed fighter. However, with these exports came Egyptian advisors, many of whom had been trained in the Socialist Union.
With Egypt supporting Palestine’s claimed over the West Bank and Jordan increasingly concerned about the political activities of its Egyptian military advisors, a political crisis that threatened to derail the AC loomed. The spark for the conflict of February 1965 was the inevitable Jordanian crackdown against Palestinian protesters in the West Bank. Communal tensions had escalated throughout 1964 resulting in growing death toll and ultimately the shooting of 28 unarmed Palestinian civilians by the Jordanian Army. When a Jordanian Army unit (with embedded Egyptian Army advisors) based near Jerusalem mutinied and was attacked by loyalist units, the governments of Egypt and Palestine moved to liberate the West Bank by force.
The war for the West Bank quickly spread as opposing air forces struck at airfields and other targets well beyond the disputed region. Concerned that the conflict would embolden the Socialist Union into intervening and that the advancing Egyptian and Palestinian armies might not stop at the eastern border of the West Bank, the UN launched Operation Desert Peace, a large-scale bombing campaign against Egypt and Palestine intended to force them into a negotiated settlement. After two six weeks of bombing, and with the Jordanian’s forced out of the West Bank, an agreement was signed that brought an end to the West Bank War. In the process, the Arab Community was dissolved and the United Arab Federation was formed with just Egypt, Palestine and Syria.
a/c 408 is one of six Ha-200R photo-reconnaissance planes operated by the PARAF during the West Bank War. These jets formed part of a 68 aircraft Palestinian order for Ha-200 fighter-bombers, which served alongside 28 Ha-100 advanced trainers. Their diminutive size, nimble agility and small radar cross section made them difficult to intercept. Although they required pinpoint accuracy for their modest armament to cause significant damage, Ha-200s nevertheless shot down four Jordanian aircraft (one Fishbed, two Sabres and a Thunderjet) and a USAF Super Sabre without loss in air-to-air combat during the West Bank War.
This plane was the personal mount of Captain Tamer Saleh, an Egyptian-trained pilot who flew 35 combat sorties during the 6-week war, 26 of them in this plane. Photos reveal that a/c408 started the conflict in a bare metal finish but was quickly camouflaged. The plane appears to have used several drop tanks during the war, only some of which were camouflaged. Although the Ha-200R was armed, Captain Saleh wrote after the war that he always flew recce missions without cannon in order to save weight.
Eastern Front 1941: SUAC I-16 Type 24
Link: www.whatifmodellers.com/index.…
Socialist Unity Aviation Collective I-16 Type 24
a/c 1, personal mount of Wing Commander Elisha Levi, Shalom Berman Wing, Crimean Defence Force/Air Force (CDF/AF)
Belbeck, Crimea, early November, 1941
Closely aligned with the Socialist Union, the Jewish nation of Crimea declared its independence from Soviet Russia on 23 November, 1927, during the Second Russian Civil War/The War Against Stalinism. In return for support against Stalin, Trotsky made deals with numerous ethnic minorities enabling them to establish varying levels of autonomy from Moscow, including national sovereignty, but with strings attached such as military and economic alliances. Successful in reducing Stalin's area of control to the TransCaucases, Crimea and the Socialist Union enjoyed mutually beneficial relations in the post-civil war era. When the European Axis countries declared war on the Socialist Union and many of its aligned its neighbouring states on 22 June, 1941, Crimea was among those targeted; and Nazi Germany had a special place in Hell for the majority Jewish nation, which fought to defend itself against overwhelming odds with rarely seen, but ultimately failed, vigor.
Wing Commander Elisha Levi was a highly respected and decorated pilot. An ethnic Crimean Krymchak, Levi joined the embryonic CDF/AF during the Crimean War of Independence and earned a reputation as a natural leader and aerial sharp-shooter. Levi was the Wing Commander of the Shalom Berman Wing at the time of Operation Barbarossa, which was named after the Soviet Army Air Force mechanic and Krymchak Hero of the Socialist Union who was a leader of an uprising against Stalinist control at Belbeck.
By early November Levi had built up an impressive kill tally and his aircraft was adorned with 6.5 kill credits. These were 5.5 Luftwaffe claims (two Hs 1126As, a Fi 156A, a Ju-87B, a Bf 109E and another '109 shared) and 1 from the Regia Aeronautica (a Regianne Re.1901). The types that Levi achieved victory over reflect the kinds of tactical missions that the Shalom Berman Wing conducted; these included frontline air defence, close air support, battlefield area interdiction and armed reconnaissance. The plane also featured the Wing's badge on its red painted tail rudder and had the spinner and undercarriage covers also painted red to identify his Wing Commander position.
Wing Commander Levi was killed in action on 9 November, 1941, shot down by German flak at low altitude while leading a strike mission against Wehrmacht artillery positions. He was badly wounded by shrapnel and his plane burst into flames as it crashed into trees near Tankove. Wing Commander Elisha Levi was posthumously awarded both the Crimean Medal of Valor and the Hero of the Socialist Union decorations.
Shipbucket so just MS paint but using a pre-existing M1b/5 from Demon lord and thanks for link.
Was thinking very like your story (will have to read it! Its amazing just how often you find good stuff you have totally missed on this site after many years), engine is a single F1A in a stretched tank derived from upper.
Thanks! I've got a few comments on the basics of rocket analysis for AH timelines, and then a few on your rocket and the similar rockets from Eyes. First, basic analysis:
With a selected OTL engine, you start off knowing the lower stage liftoff thrust. That means if you assume a desired liftoff thrust-to-weight ration, you know how much the total rocket stack can weigh. If you're using an existing OTL upper stage and known the rough payload, you can subtract all that from the total liftoff weight (gross weight), and get the target weight of the lower stage. For a rough set of numbers, you can then compare historical rockets of similar categories and build styles, and estimate the % of the gross weight which is propellant and the % which is is "everything else"--engines, tanks, interstage fairings, etc. A spreadsheet running the rocket equation on each stage can give you a rough idea of how much payload the combined vehicle can deliver to orbit (~9400 to 9700 m/s) or you can use Silverbird for a slightly more precise high-level number if one which is more time consuming to iterate. As it happens, I've done this before for a single-F1-A vehicle, so I'd be happy to take a look at any Google Sheets or the like you put together and see if you're doing it in a way that sees the math work right.
Note once you have the propellant load, you can convert to tank volume and then (from diameter) the rough length of the stage. I think you might want to run that calculation, as I think your lower stage may be a little too long for the propellant a single F-1A can lift. I see the tanks on the lower stage being about 30m long, which would be able to hold about 1,000 cubic meters of kerosene/lox, which works out to basically 1,000 metric tons of propellant. A single F-1A at 8,003 kN is only capable of lifting a total of about 680 metric tons off the pad at a T/W of 1.2, which includes the upper stage (S-IVB is about 113 metric tons gross) and the payload (as mentioned below, likely about 20 metric tons). You've got about twice as much tank length as you need, unless the tank packaging is particularly inefficient.
Once you've mastered that basic level of analysis, you can start messing with questions like, "given this particular gross weight, is it better to add more propellant in the lower stage or to stretch the historical upper stage"? The next step is adding the tools to do post-separation burns on one or both stages, allowing rough modeling of the costs of boostback or flyback recovery of lower or upper stages, but that gets a little complex.
Next, let's talk about the rocket you've posted:
If the upper stage is an S-IVB, then it's common-bulkhead hydrolox, so tooling applicability to a kerolox lower stage for the tooling may be low. It may be the same diameter, but requires very different loads. For an example, compare the manufacturing for the hydrolox Centaur and the methalox Vulcan and Delta/Atlas rockets seen on display in this ULA factory tour video:
The bigger question with any F-1 powered rocket after the lunar program is the intent and purpose of the vehicle. Even a single F-1A is a lot of power, and to be honest a little overkill for "just" lifting Apollo to orbit--the payload ends up in the ~20 ton range for LEO missions, depending on orbital altitude and inclination. The Apollo CSM is about 12 metric tons dry, and with enough propellant just for a station rendezvous and return to Earth, it's possible the entire spacecraft may mass well below 15 metric tons. That means the difference in performance between the Saturn IB and the Saturn IC of Eyes or your Saturn II is just...overkill. You can use that by putting some kind of Soyuz-style Orbital Module/Mission Module into the stack to expand capability and pressurized volume, but that's just the start of things.
There's two core decisions in an F-1 powered stage to replace the Saturn IB, and they both bear discussion which is a bit of an old topic on the Eyes threads. The first is the engine: the F-1 is a pretty expensive engine for what it is, and the H-1 is shared with Delta and a few other rockets and missiles. Thus, volume production of the H-1 is likely cheaper than relatively low-rate F-1 production whose cost must be solely borne by NASA. The second is the decision to replace the clustered tanks of Saturn IB with a new single-diameter large tank. As mentioned above, that's new tooling, and while the Saturn IB clustered tanks are heavy, they're not quite as awfully overbuilt as they look. That means replacing them (versus just stretching them) yields less payload than you might think--a ton or two is a number I recall, but you can reconstruct this yourself.
In Eyes, the decision to build the Saturn IC was our attempt to save F-1 production and introduce a new kerolox core diameter we could later use for a common core medium/superheavy lifter able to support both station logistics, station construction, and lunar flights. However, that's a hard sell to Congress or OMB in 1970 compared to "just use Titan" or "if you must, buy more Saturn IB, the rocket you already have, with some cost reductions". To be honest, that's the part of Eyes that gets the most handwaving.
And since this episode takes place in an alternate 1963, it appears it got introduced earlier.Dornier DO31
Dornier Do 31 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org