List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[Peppe]

Edward VI lives to age 31 and married Jane Grey in 1553 (based on some wikiboxes I posted right at the end of the 5th thread), I admit that I may have gone a little overboard in the length of it (and I didn't even add the marriages and children of most of the branches)

Edward and his children
Edward VI, King of England and Ireland (b.1537:d.1569)
By Jane Grey, Duchess of Suffolk (b.c.1537:d.1604), married in 1554

1) Line of Elizabeth I​

2) Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b.1557:d.1566)​

3) Jane, Princess of England (b.1558:d.1603) m. Thomas, Duke of Bedford (b.1556:d.1603)​

1) Henry, Earl Hunsdon (b.1573:d.1580)​

2) Catherine, 6th Duchess of Bedford (b.1574:d.1642), was a spinster​

3) Lady Frances Tudor (b.1576:d.1631) the ancestress of the current dukes​

4) Edward, 3rd Duke of Bedford (b.1577:d.1612) extinct on the legitimate line​

5) Lady Mary Tudor (b.1580:d.1617)​

4) Line of Henry IX​

5) Margaret, Queen of Sweden (b.1564:d.1612) m. Sigismund, King of Sweden (b.1566:d.1598)​

1) Margaret of Sweden (b.1583:d.1591)​

2) Catherine, Queen of England and Ireland (b.1584:d.1642)​

3) Karl III, King of Sweden (b.1587:d.1631)​

4) Anna of Sweden (b.1589:d.1660)​

5) Hedwig of Sweden (b.1590:d.1627)​

6) Wadislaw IV, King of Poland (b.1594:d.1652)​

6) Madeleine, Queen of Denmark (b. 1568:d.1585) m. Frederick II, King of Denmark and Norway (b.1534:d.1588)​

1) Christian IV, King of Denmark and Norway (b.1585:d.1650)​

By Lady Lettice Knollys, Countess of Rotherfield (b.1543:d.1634), mistress from 1560 to 1564

1) Thomas, Duke of Calais (b.1562:d.1655) m. Lady Cecily Percy (b.1565:d.1615), m. Lady Catherine Raleigh (b.1600:d.1678)​

1a) Lady Jackline FitzTudor (b.1584:d.1607)​

2a) Lady Eleanor FitzTudor (b.1589:d.1​

3a) Henry FitzTudor, Earl of Rotherfield (b.1591:d.1642), grandfather of the 2nd Duke of Calais​

4a) Lady Meredith FitzTudor (b.1593:d.1648)​

5a) Lord James FitzTudor (b.1595:d.1622)​

1b) Lady Agatha FitzTudor (b.1617:d.1680)​

2b) Lord Reginald FitzTudor (b.1622:d.1703)​

Line of Henry IX
Henry IX, King of England and Ireland (b.1560:d.1580) m. Anna of Nassau (b.1563:d.1578)
By Anna of Nassau (b.1563:d.1578), married in 1574

1) Henry X, King of England and Ireland (b.1578:d.1588)​

By Lady Elizabeth Cavendish, Countess of Lennox (b.1555:d.1592), mistress in 1575

1) Thomas FitzRoy, Duke of Devon (b.1575:d.1619) m. Lady Frances Devereux (b.1599:d.1674)​

1) James, 2nd Duke of Devon (b.1617:d.1623)​

2) Edward, 3rd Duke of Devon (b.1618:d.1640)​

3) Margaret, 4th Duchess of Devon (b.1619:d.1701)​

By Lady Margaret Fitzpatrick, of Upper Ossory (b.1561:d.1621), mistress from 1575 to 1580

1) Frances FitzRoy, Duchess of Kilkenny (b.1576:d.1654) m. Richard Butler, 3rd Viscount Mountgarret (b.1578:d.1651)​

1) Edmund Butler, 2nd Duke of Kilkenny (b.1595:d.1679)​

2) Lady Margaret Butler (b.1596:d.1620)​

3) Lady Mary Butler (b.1598:d.1631)​

4) Lord Richard Butler (b.1599:d.1618)​

5) Lord Henry Butler (b.1602:d.1605)​

6) Lady Eleanor Butler (b.1605:d.1612)​

7) Lady Madeleine Butler (b.1606:d.1639)​

8) Lady Catherine Butler (b.1610:d.1618)​

2) Jane Fitzroy, Duchess of Ballybunion (b.1578:d.1630) m. Lord Henry FitzGerald, of the Earls of Desmond (b.1575:d.1608)​

1) Catherine, 2nd Duchess of Ballybunion (b.1602:d.1661)​

2) Lady Ellen FitzGerald (b.1606:d.1690)​

Line of Elizabeth I, originally Duchess of York, Regent from 1580 to 1588
Elizabeth I, Queen of England and Ireland (b.1555:d.1630), m. Prince Robert of Scotland (b.1566:d.1618)
1) Line of Thomas I
2) Richard, King of Scots (b.1583:d.1645) m. Margaret II, Queen of Scots (b.1596:d.1652)

1) Robert IV, King of Scots (b.1612:d.1651) father of Margaret III​

2) Princess Elizabeth of Scotland (b.1615:d.1668)​

3) Princess Margaret Scotland (b.1616:d.1689)​

3) James, Duke of Richmond (b.1585:d.1617) m. Vasilisa of Uglich (b.1596:d.1680)

1) Edmund, Duke of Richmond (b.1616:d.1638), had three daughters​

4) Catherine, Queen of the Netherlands (b.1590:d.1678) m. Frederick I, Stadholder of the Netherlands (b.1586:d.1647)

1) William II, Stadholder of the Netherlands (b.1611:d.1650)​

2) Louise Henriette of the Netherlands (b.1615:1699)​

3) Agnes of the Netherlands (b.1619:d.1703)​

4) Albertine of the Netherlands (b.1622:1667)​

5) Hendrik of the Netherlands (b.1631:1650)​

6) Maria of Nassau (b.1632:1718)​

5) Henry, Duke of Leinster jure uxoris (b.1594:d.1662) m. Elizabeth, 4th Duchess of Leinster (b.1595:d.1674)

1) Edward, Earl of Leicester (b.1614:d.1629) died childless​

2) Florence, 5th Duchess of Leinster (b.1616:d.1675)​

3) Saoirse, 6th Duchess of Leinster (b.1621:d.1697)​

Line of Thomas I, of the House of Stewart by male line (but identifying himself as Tudor)
Thomas I, King of England and Ireland (b.1581:d.1638) m. Catherine of Sweden (b.1584:d.1642)

1) Edward, Prince of Wales (b.1602:d.1638) m. Sophia Christina of Prussia (b.1605:d.1644)​

By Sophia Christina of Prussia​

1) Henry, Duke of Windsor (b.1621:d.1627)​

2) Line of Thomas II​

3) Agatha, Queen of Portugal (b.1625:d.1701) m. Manuel II, King of Portugal (b.1618:d.1672)​

4) Richard I, King of Belgium (b.1628:d.1687) m. Renée of France & Navarre (b.1622:d.1700)​

By Lady Anne Cavendish, of the Earls of Devonshire (b.1611:d.1638) mistress from 1629 to 1633​

1) Lady Adelaide FitzWales, Countess of Oxford (b.1631:d.1669)​

2) Lady Louise FitzWales, Duchess of Newcastle (b.1632:d.1692)​

By Arbella Stewart, Duchess of Lennox, a semi-royal cousin (b.1575:d.1626) mistress intermittently from 1622 to 1638 and close confidant​

1) Charles Stewart, 2nd Duke of Lennox (b.1624:d.1674)​

2) Lady Margaret Stewart (b.1625:d.1627)​

3) Lady Mary Stewart (b.1629:d.1635)​

4) John Stewart, Earl of Roanoke (b.1630:d.1702)​

5) Lady Bellatrix Stewart (b.1634:d.1690)​

By Calpurnia Churchill, the daughter of a lawyer (b.1620:d.1679) mistress in his last two years​

1) Jasper Tudor, Duke of Marlborough, Prince-Bishopric of Fulda (b.1638:d.1704)​

By Elizabeth, a washerwoman (d.1642) unexpected friend for 20 years, mistress for a month​

1) Alfred FitzPrince, Earl of Dover (b.1631:d.1674)​

2) Mary, Princess Royal (b.1602:d.1677)​

3) Jane, Duchess of Carrickfergus (b.1605:d.1658) m. Lord Constantine O’Neill, of the Lords of Upper Clandeboye (b.c.1595:d.1646)​

1) Thomas O’Neill, Duke of Carrickfergus (b.1630:d.1689)​

2) Prince Felix of Carrickfergus (b.1631:d.1672) ancestor of the Lords of Ortelsburg​

3) Princess Margaret of Carrickfergus (b.1634:d.1680)​

4) Prince Brian of Carrickfergus (b.1635:d.1642)​

5) Prince Murtagh of Carrickfergus (b.1637:d.1678)​

6) Princess Mary of Carrickfergus (b.1638:d.1705)​

7) Princess Anne of Carrickfergus (b.1640:d.1643)​

8) Princess Jane of Carrickfergus (b.1642:d.1642)​

9) Prince Niall of Carrickfergus (b.1643.1650)​

10) Princess Elizabeth of Carrickfergus (b.1644.d.1644)​

11) Prince Constantine of Carrickfergus (b.1646:d.1658)​

4) Eric XV, King of Sweden (b.1606:d.1671) m. Princess Christina of Sweden (b.1616:d.1689)​

1) Karl IV, King of Sweden (b.1632:d.1694)​

2) Ulrika of Sweden (b.1633:d.1677)​

3) Gustav I, Viceroy of Delmarva (b.1635:d.1679)​

5) Sarah, Queen of Denmark (b.1610:d.1693) m. Frederick III, King of Denmark (b.1607:d.1656)​

1) Anna Sophia of Denmark (b.1627:d.1680)​

2) Christian V, King of Denmark (b.1630:d.1678)​

3) Friederike of Denmark (b.1631:d.1691)​

4) Wilhelmine of Denmark (b.1633:d.1702)​

5) Ulrik of Denmark (b.1635:d.1683)​

Line of Thomas II
Thomas II, King of England and Ireland (b.1622:d.1690) m. Margaret III, Queen of Scots (b.1627:d.1705)

1) James, Duke of Cornwall (b.1641:d.1652)​

2) Mary, Electress Palatine (b.1643:d.1675) m. Frederick VI, Elector Palatine (b.1637:d.1693)​

1) Rupert I, Elector Palatine (b.1660:d.1719)​

2) Sophia, Holy Roman Empress (b.1662:d.1729)​

3) Elizabeth of the Palatinate (b.1664:d.1669)​

3) Alexander, Prince of Wales (b.1645:d.1684) m. Princess Maria Theresa of Austria (b.1652:d.1685)​

1) Princess Jane of Wales (b.1669:d.1730)​

2) Edward, Duke of Windsor and Berwick (b.1670:d.1687), father of Henry XI & I (and at least 12 bastards)​

3) Prince James of Wales (b.1672:d.1675)​

4) Princess Elizabeth of Wales (b.1673:d.1675)​

5) Princess Mary of Wales (b.1676:d.1681)​

4) Elizabeth, Queen of the Netherlands (b.1646:d.1712) m. Frederick II, Stadtholder of the Netherlands (b.1638:d.1692)​

1) William III, Stadtholder of the Netherlands (b.1664:d.1740)​

5) Catherine, Queen of Navarre (b.1647:d.1718) m. Philip IV, King of Navarre (b.1640:d.1699)​

1) Louis III, King of Navarre (b.1665:d.1715) died without issue​

2) Eleanor of Navarre (b.1666:d.1680)​

3) Joan IV, Queen of Navarre (b.1670:d.1752)​

4) Blanche of Navarre (b.1671:d.1722)​

Main things on the line:
- The titles of nobility in England and Ireland develop to be inheritable to women, which seems to have either been a medieval custom who was lost over time or a rare occasion mostly reserved to Baronies and some duchies in OTL, reason why this line has an almost unrealistic amount of women inheriting their father’s, brother’s, nephew’s or cousin’s titles, or being granted them by letters patent (this also means that a larger amount of titles has been running for a longer amount of time)
- The relationship between the English, Welsh and Irish ended up becoming rather more amiable over time, with the Welsh due to Henry IX and his sister being rather fond of Wales (Caernarfon became a permanent royal residence in rank with Hampton Court) while Lady Elizabeth (OTL Elizabeth I, who was sent to Ireland after her marriage to Robert Dudley in 1550 and served as Lord Deputy from 1554 to 1572) helped mend things with the Irish lords, with Ireland by the end of the 17th century being basically a patchwork of semi-independent Gaelic nobles and royal territory (you can see that they also have a tendency to marry into the House of Tudor through royal bastards with some frequency)
- Mary Tudor never married, but after suffering a despair event horizon in 1555 she ended up sleeping with a servant and having a son by him, humiliated and “tainted”, she was granted the title of Duchess of Bedford by her brother in 1558, and died of cancer in 1561
- Mary, Queen of Scots, had twin sons, James and Robert, with her first husband, who died of some sort of pox almost a year later, she herself died (or was possibly poisoned) in 1570. James, later on, only had a daughter, Margaret, who was married to her first cousin Richard (his brother, Thomas, abdicated his right on the line of succession) and was co-monarch with him after he inherited her father’s throne (as @isabella revealed to me that the Scottish had a semi-Salic Law in place, which I did not know when originally planning this line)
- Religion in Britain is rather different, as Anglicanism became more similar to Nordic Protestantism with a longer-living Edward VI, Ireland ended up becoming more protestant as well, with various protestant denominations springing from there (some considered nigh-pagan and most similar to the Celtic Church), with Catholicism having a holdout in the mountains of Connaught and Western Munster similarly to the Scottish Highlands
- Speaking of the Nordics, Eric XIV was still deposed by his brother John, and the main differences after it were that his son Gustav gained the Principality of Uglich and retained it (In OTL he received it as compensation for a broken betrothal from Boris Godunov and was deposed by the False Dmitry under orders of his cousin, Sigismund), Sigismund Vasa, in comparison, ended up dying before religion became a problem for his reign, with his protestant wife becoming regent for their eldest son, while their second son ended up becoming the monarch of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
- Speaking of Russia, while Gustav did gain the Principality of Uglich as in OTL, the Rurikids did not become extinct as Ivan IV never smashed his son’s head in, the House of Romanov still exists but only as a powerful noble family in Russia and as Kings of Livonia (which are vassals of the Russia)
- William the Silent wasn’t assassinated and due to a different development of the Dutch Rebellion (Anna of Nassau, BTW, is one of his daughters) the Netherlands become a kingdom under the House of Orange (although it is decided that the title of king will not be used, and instead the Dutch monarch holds the title of "Stadtholder of the Netherlands". The 80 Year's War still occurs, and Belgium still ends up being a separate country from the Netherlands
- The later generations present a bit more of change, as a 30 Years’ War-like conflict still occurs, but lasts around double the time and has some dramatic effects on the Holy Roman Empire, those being that not only does the Austrian Branch of the House of Hapsburg turn protestant (they retain the title of Holy Roman Emperors by doing some word-wizardry basically in the sense of it “being a title granted by god to the King of Germany and not by the whim of the Pope”), which is one of the reasons why the war extends for so long (a civil war within the House of Hapsburg basically), but all Princely and Imperial Abbeys within the HRE are mediatized, but, instead of like OTL, German mediatization is that most of them are granted to branches or minor members of royal and noble houses of Europe, reason why the Duke of Marlborough is also the Prince-Bishopric of Fulda (The Churchill Family, BTW, never comes into being, as the father of the OTL first Duke of Marlborough is born a woman). Also, Spain gets brought down a peg or two in the war and ends up losing Navarre while their colonial empire fragments into various dynastic kingdoms (Spain proper only retains their territories in the Mediterranean and Africa together with some islands in the Caribbean)
- Portugal never loses it’s independence due to an alternate Sebastian I both not trying a Crusade in Morocco and being more religiously moderate, and ends up breaking with the Church during the TTL 30 Year’s War, with the Lusitanian Church being basically "Catholicism without the Pope"
- The kingdoms of France and Navarre are again separated (the second time this happens, the first one was after Joan I married Philip IV of France, it lasted from 1284 to 1328) as Henry IV has Louis XIII before schedule (meaning he is less against protestants as well) but Louis only has daughters and after him while his eldest gets a Navarre returned to its pre-Spain size his brother becomes King of France (his other daughter marries a brother of Thomas II, who becomes king of Belgium after it gains independence in the TTL 30 Years’ War)
- The colonization of the Americas by England ends up having a slightly more feudal manner, with nobles with fiefs being a fact in some parts of it (like the Earldom of Roanoke), and the Scottish manage to pull a Colony of Darien (also, as can be noticed, the Union of Crowns happens much later in comparison to OTL)

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Władysław and Jan Kazimierz Vasa both die before father, thus their brother Karol Ferdynand is the one who gets Polish throne in 1632.

Charles I Ferdinand (1613-1655) King of Poland 1632, m. a) Cecilia Renata of Austria (1611-1644) b) Isabella Clara of Austria (1629-1685)

1a) Sigismund IV (1637-1665) King of Poland 1655

2a) Constance Anna Maria (1639-1697) m. Philip William (1615-1690) Duke of Neuburg, Elector Palatine

1) Cecilia Magdalene (1657-1709) m. Leopold I (1640-1705) Holy Roman Emperor​

​

2) Charles Philip (1660-1703) Elector Palatine 1690, m. Louise Margaret of Bavaria (1663-1715)*​

​

3) John Wolfgang (1662-1688)​

​

4) John Ferdinand (1664)​

​

5) Sigismund Alexander (1666-1723)​

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6) Anna Maria (1667-1709) m. Odoardo Farnese (1666-1693) Duke of Parma​

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7) Philip William (1669-1701)​

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8) Maria Sophia (1671-1722), m. Maximilian II of Bavaria (1662-1726)​

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9) Elizabeth Hedwig (1673-1727) m. Sigismund V of Poland (see below)​

3a) Catherine Cecilia (1644)

4b) Charles II Alexander (1648-1704) King of Poland 1665-1704, m. Eleanor Maria of Austria (1653-1697)

1) Charles Ferdinand (1670-1673)​

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2) Sigismund V (1672-1730) King of Poland 1704, m. Elizabeth Hedwig of Palatinate (1673-1727) see above​

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3) Vladislaus (1676)​

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* Daughter of Ferdinand Maria of Bavaria, IOTL died in infancy

 

[The Professor]

- The titles of nobility in England and Ireland develop to be inheritable to women, which seems to have either been a medieval custom who was lost over time or a rare occasion mostly reserved to Baronies and some duchies in OTL, reason why this line has an almost unrealistic amount of women inheriting their father’s, brother’s, nephew’s or cousin’s titles, or being granted them by letters patent (this also means that a larger amount of titles has been running for a longer amount of time)

This is down to abeyance which applies to titles below duke (traditionally male only in letters patent).
Essentially a noble title passes on to the eldest male heir or the sole female heir. Where multiple female heirs exist, regardless of birth order, the title goes into abeyance until decided on by the Crown. So if, as happened a fair bit, an Earl has 2 or more sisters, or sometimes aunts, then unless he's declared one of their sons his heir then those sons need to petition the Crown to obtain the title (wealth however was usually divided equally).

 

[Peppe]

This is down to abeyance which applies to titles below duke (traditionally male only in letters patent).
Essentially a noble title passes on to the eldest male heir or the sole female heir. Where multiple female heirs exist, regardless of birth order, the title goes into abeyance until decided on by the Crown. So if, as happened a fair bit, an Earl has 2 or more sisters, or sometimes aunts, then unless he's declared one of their sons his heir then those sons need to petition the Crown to obtain the title (wealth however was usually divided equally).

Did not know that, so in this case the titles that end up being gained by inheritance by women in the line are due to same change occuring during the reign of Edward VI (or Henry IX) so the peerages start being passed to heirs-general with a line of preference among daughters instead of there being none and them all inheriting equally (which I discovered after looking Abeyance in wikipedia seems to be the system the Scottish have used for the situation)

 

[The Professor]

Did not know that, so in this case the titles that end up being gained by inheritance by women in the line are due to same change occuring during the reign of Edward VI (or Henry IX) so the peerages start being passed to heirs-general with a line of preference among daughters instead of there being none and them all inheriting equally (which I discovered after looking Abeyance in wikipedia seems to be the system the Scottish have used for the situation)

Not sure why they would change anything. The petition system gives them power over the nobles. With a change in dynasty or union with another crown you could see it imposed albeit you would see an increase in litigation from male members of extant baronies and earldoms until everyone gets used to it. Perhaps a general male preference primogeniture Act of Succession applying to all titles?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Although it is decided that the title of king will not be used, and instead the Dutch monarch holds the title of "Stadtholder of the Netherlands".

Why keep the title "stadtholder" then? Stadtholder was an APPOINTED official (something akin to a viceroy IIRC).

Henry IV has Louis XIII before schedule (meaning he is less against protestants as well) but Louis only has daughters and after him while his eldest gets a Navarre returned to its pre-Spain size his brother becomes King of France (

When was Henri IV against Protestants? And as to France-Navarre splitting, only way for that would be Louis XIII dying and leaving a daughter BEFORE 1617 (when the process of annexing Navarre to France began, completed in 1620). And Gaston's fight against an infant niece while look very much like the vicomte de Narbonne's against his own niece. Spain would be the only one likely to profit.

with the Lusitanian Church being basically "Catholicism without the Pope"

Not particularly likely. Since unless TTL D. Sebastião had a different mom (which is VERY unlikely - since only was for that is if Juana is unavailable, and since she refused matches with Francesco I de Medici, Alfonso II d'Este and the duke of Savoy OTL, there aren't a whole lot of alternativss) the Jesuits are still having a handle on his education. Which means even if he ISN'T a fanatic as OTL, he sure as Hell isn't going any variant of Protestant. Maybe if the Prior of Crato were successful and his son still marries Emilia of Nassau, you could see Portugal become less ULTRA in its Catholicism, but I personally doubt that Crato winning is likely.

German mediatization is that most of them are granted to branches or minor members of royal and noble houses of Europe,

Why would the emperor allow this? OTL's mediatization made sense (sort of) because it collapsed 300+ states into under 50. Here you have 300+ states who are all far more open for foreign interference than OTL. Sounds like a NIGHTMARE IMO

 

[Peppe]

Not sure why they would change anything. The petition system gives them power over the nobles. With a change in dynasty or union with another crown you could see it imposed albeit you would see an increase in litigation from male members of extant baronies and earldoms until everyone gets used to it. Perhaps a general male preference primogeniture Act of Succession applying to all titles?

Seems reasonable, so I'll run with it, Henry IX (in reality, Queen Mother Jane, who had to deal with her sisters disputing the title of Duchess of Suffolk, which had been retroactively made inheritable to heirs-general when their father became bedridden with a pox in 1553) made an Act in the succession of noble titles in 1575, declaring that in all titles, in the case of a lack of direct male heirs, daughters or sisters of the last holder would inherit it in the same manner of if they were male (meaning "the eldest gets it"). Also, I totally forgot to mention, but Henry X died in the last outbreak of the sweating sickness, being perfectly healthy in the morning and dead by the evening

Why keep the title "stadtholder" then? Stadtholder was an APPOINTED official (something akin to a viceroy IIRC).

I, admittedly, didn't entirely grasp the meaning of "Stadtholder" when I decided upon it (in special since I confounded the Counts of East Frisia with the Stadtholders of Friesland and had some absurd though process going on that the title could mean an independent ruler) and, in some part, though it was plain cool. So, in the sense of the line, I would say that it was a bit of symbolism that caused the decision? With Stadtholder being chosen as a symbol of the fact that William the Silent was "chosen" by the Dutch to be their king. I know it is a large leap of mental gimnastics, but that's what I'm going with

When was Henri IV against Protestants? And as to France-Navarre splitting, only way for that would be Louis XIII dying and leaving a daughter BEFORE 1617 (when the process of annexing Navarre to France began, completed in 1620). And Gaston's fight against an infant niece while look very much like the vicomte de Narbonne's against his own niece. Spain would be the only one likely to profit.

I was speaking of Louis XIIi in relation to protestants, the guy was only 8 when Henry IV died in OTL and from what I gather that caused him to be mostly influenced by Catholics who didn't want anything with the Protestants. About Navarre, since Louis XIII is born earlier (lets say, around the 1580s or 90s, his mother is, indeed, Margaret of Valois) and is a different person, he ends up having children ealier than OTL (his eldest daughter being born around 1615) and the annexation of Navarre doesn't end up occurring (it was started in the 1620s, but by that point the possibility of Louis having sons was agreed to not be null, so it was stopped and he decided to instead prop-up a kingdom for his daughter). The line's version of Gaston (named Henry) is very different from his OTL version, and the reason why he didn't try and claim it (not that it would have been easy with the fact that at the time of Louis' death Spain was licking her wounds and Navarre was a hard nut to crack, with fortresses on the south and the Pyrenees to the north) is a bit hazy but in my mind it involves a marriage to tie dynastic loose ends that results in the groom dying of the pox and his second brother already being married, another marriage, this time with an brother-in-law/half first-cousin, and a great deal of diplomacy; but resuming he ends up with Navarre being independent but under some French influence

Not particularly likely. Since unless TTL D. Sebastião had a different mom (which is VERY unlikely - since only was for that is if Juana is unavailable, and since she refused matches with Francesco I de Medici, Alfonso II d'Este and the duke of Savoy OTL, there aren't a whole lot of alternativss) the Jesuits are still having a handle on his education. Which means even if he ISN'T a fanatic as OTL, he sure as Hell isn't going any variant of Protestant. Maybe if the Prior of Crato were successful and his son still marries Emilia of Nassau, you could see Portugal become less ULTRA in its Catholicism, but I personally doubt that Crato winning is likely.

I explained it wrong, Sebastian isn't a fanatic (he is simply pious but not idiotic, basically), but just that, the move to protestant occurs on the later generations and is very Henry VIII-esque

Why would the emperor allow this? OTL's mediatization made sense (sort of) because it collapsed 300+ states into under 50. Here you have 300+ states who are all far more open for foreign interference than OTL. Sounds like a NIGHTMARE IMO

Basically, over the course of the war (and in special during the Austrian Civil War) an idea is developed in the empire that basically revolves on "the church should not have lands", and when the war ended, many of the bigger players on it decided for doing just that, and while some states grabbed religious territories for themselves (mostly Austria, Prussia and Denmark, Belgium got Liege), there was a desire to not see large blocks that could truly threaten the emperor be formed, and so besides the land grabbing by the major powers, the rest were either granted to noble and royal houses or fragmented, and although some foreign houses gained territories for their branches (Like Fulda for the Duke of Malborough or Strassburg for the Prince of Condé) most were put in the hands of the german nobility and royalty (Munster was fragmented, for example, while Cologne was granted to a protestant branch of the Wittelsbachs (the catholic branch in Bavaria nearly lost their own territory, but did some fast real politique to get with only land losses), the Hapsburgs also snatched Trier as a dynastic territory. Imperial Abbeys ruled by Abbesses continued with their female-only rulership, only now with it being hereditary). Also, the war basically cemented that the title of Holy Roman Emperor as being held by the Archduke of Austria, seeing as him, his allies or his relatives held most of the votes for it, so there wasn't much fear of foreign influence on decision-making in the empire.

Although, I admit, my main reason for the secularization but no annexation of all the ecclesiastical lands in the HRE was a simple one, I actually liked how it was before Napoleon with all its weird borders and general insanity, and so rammed in a chance to make it even crazier

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Louis XIII is born earlier (lets say, around the 1580s or 90s, his mother is, indeed, Margaret of Valois) and is a different person, he ends up having children ealier than OTL (his eldest daughter being born around 1615) and the annexation of Navarre doesn't end up occurring (it was started in the 1620s,

Sorry. No. The minute Henri IV has a son by Margot, Henri's a dead man walking and Catherine de Medicis will be the one to helping him into a ready dug grave and supervising the education of her grandson as a "good Catholic".

but just that, the move to protestant occurs on the later generations and is very Henry VIII-esque

Sorry, again. Not saying it won't happen, but by Sebastiao's death, it's already too late for a "national" church à la the CoE to be set up (and unless Felipe slips and dies in 1556, followed by his sister, Sebastiao's mother, and Cardinal Henrique, it isn't happening in Portugal). The Counter-Reformation is in full-swing by 1600, and since by then the chances of a Henry VIII-type situation occuring is (while not zero, extraordinarily unlikely), not to mention, Portugal has an unfortunately very looong border with it's only neighbour - ultraCatholic Spain. A Portugal that does this means that she runs the risk of the pope declaring her monarch a heretic - and thus, deposed - and the king of Spain invading.

 

[Peppe]

Sorry. No. The minute Henri IV has a son by Margot, Henri's a dead man walking and Catherine de Medicis will be the one to helping him into a ready dug grave and supervising the education of her grandson as a "good Catholic".

She dies before he is born, she died in OTL in 1589 and Louis would be born around the late 1580s, so she dies around 1586

Sorry, again. Not saying it won't happen, but by Sebastiao's death, it's already too late for a "national" church à la the CoE to be set up (and unless Felipe slips and dies in 1556, followed by his sister, Sebastiao's mother, and Cardinal Henrique, it isn't happening in Portugal). The Counter-Reformation is in full-swing by 1600, and since by then the chances of a Henry VIII-type situation occuring is (while not zero, extraordinarily unlikely), not to mention, Portugal has an unfortunately very looong border with it's only neighbour - ultraCatholic Spain. A Portugal that does this means that she runs the risk of the pope declaring her monarch a heretic - and thus, deposed - and the king of Spain invading.

I know having a protestant is extremely unlikely, so let's assume that following Sebastião (and his son), his grandson, which would be the ruler around the first half of the War, ends up seeing the mess that is the rest of Europe at the moment and decides for a policy of isolation and relation mostly with Portugal's old ally, England (Treaty of Windsor and all that jazz, it became basically null with the religious matter but is reconfirmed around 1640), and his son (Manuel II, originally raised to the habit, ended up heir and a tad questioning of the Church in general) ends up visiting England at some point and becomes interested in an English princess, who agrees to pull a Madame Palatine and convert to Catholicism to marry him. Manuel isn't in fact the one responsible for breaking with the church, his son and successor is, having inherited his father's questioning of the church and supported by the converted mother. The reason why he manages to pull this stunt (around the 1670s, maybe 1680s), is that after the War Spain was in no shape to actually threaten Portugal (and probably wouldn't be for a good time), as after it the kingdom lost most of its colonial empire while Portugal's neutrality left it in a good shape, and there was also the understanding that any attack on Portugal would bring England/Britain into it (I actually think this would probably end up happening at some point after the line, and probably result in Britain's acquisition of Gibraltar)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

She dies before he is born, she died in OTL in 1589 and Louis would be born around the late 1580s, so she dies around 1586

Considering that when Louis XIV was born there were rumours about his legitimacy, (Gaston d'Orléans commented that "I am willing to acknowledge he came out of the queen's body, but God knows who put him there" and Margot was known to have lovers, what's to stop anyone arguing that Louis XIII (who, if born in Henri III's lifetime, is more likely to be Henri than Louis). Either it's a wedding night baby, or Catherine is going to have to die a lot sooner than OTL.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I know having a protestant is extremely unlikely, so let's assume that following Sebastião (and his son), his grandson, which would be the ruler around the first half of the War, ends up seeing the mess that is the rest of Europe at the moment and decides for a policy of isolation and relation mostly with Portugal's old ally, England (Treaty of Windsor and all that jazz, it became basically null with the religious matter but is reconfirmed around 1640), and his son (Manuel II, originally raised to the habit, ended up heir and a tad questioning of the Church in general) ends up visiting England at some point and becomes interested in an English princess, who agrees to pull a Madame Palatine and convert to Catholicism to marry him. Manuel isn't in fact the one responsible for breaking with the church, his son and successor is, having inherited his father's questioning of the church and supported by the converted mother. The reason why he manages to pull this stunt (around the 1670s, maybe 1680s), is that after the War Spain was in no shape to actually threaten Portugal (and probably wouldn't be for a good time), as after it the kingdom lost most of its colonial empire while Portugal's neutrality left it in a good shape, and there was also the understanding that any attack on Portugal would bring England/Britain into it (I actually think this would probably end up happening at some point after the line, and probably result in Britain's acquisition of Gibraltar)

Spain, OTL, was in a shit way (poor military, bankrupt etc) and the Portuguese war of Independence dragged on for nearly thirty years. With both England and France backing Portugal.

 

[Peppe]

Considering that when Louis XIV was born there were rumours about his legitimacy, (Gaston d'Orléans commented that "I am willing to acknowledge he came out of the queen's body, but God knows who put him there" and Margot was known to have lovers, what's to stop anyone arguing that Louis XIII (who, if born in Henri III's lifetime, is more likely to be Henri than Louis). Either it's a wedding night baby, or Catherine is going to have to die a lot sooner than OTL.

My only option is to say: "the POD is somewhere in the early 1550s, Margaret of Valois was born in 1553, due to a slight butterfly effect, she and Henry actually liked each other and the reason why Louis XIII took over a decade in their marriage to be born was due to them having fertility problems on her part. Margaret died around 1598 and Henry married again to secure the succession as he had a single son"

Spain, OTL, was in a shit way (poor military, bankrupt etc) and the Portuguese war of Independence dragged on for nearly thirty years. With both England and France backing Portugal.

Remember, Spain is even worse for wear in comparison to OTL, and, just for a comment, the Portuguese Restoration War can't really be a comparison in my opinion, as at the start of it Portugal wasn't an independent nation and had no diplomatic standing at the start of it and the war took so long mostly because it was a defensive stand-off where most of the conflict was based around raiding and skirmishes while no side budged, about the foreign support, it was mostly nominal, and only in the 1660s that Britain actually entered the war on the Portuguese side

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Tree from the world, where Miguel da Paz and Arthur Tudor lives.

Arthur I (1486-1532) King of England 1509, m. Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536)

1) Elizabeth (1503-1555) m. Michael I (1498-1543) King of Spain

1) Alfonso XII/VI (1520-1576) King of Spain 1543​

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2) Isabella (1521-1567)​

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3) Manuel (1523-1529)​

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4) Catherine (1526-1581)​

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5) Ferdinand (1528-1563)​

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6) John (1530)​

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7) Maria (1532-1533)​

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8) Henry (1533)​

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9) Beatrice (1536-1569)​

2) Henry (1505-1508)

3) Arthur II (1506-1538) King of England 1532, m. Catherine of Austria (1507-1578)

1) Catherine (1525)​

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2) Arthur (1527)​

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3) Henry (1529-1531)​

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4) Catherine (1530-1535)​

4) Mary (1508)

5) Henry (1510-1515)

6) Mary (1511-1564) m. James V (1512-1550) King of Scotland

1) James VI (1532-1587) King of Scotland 1550​

7) Margaret (1513)

8) John II (1515-1586) King of England 1538, m. Margaret of France (1523-1574)

1) Arthur III (1541-1592) King of England 1586​

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2) Catherine (1543-1544)​

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3) John (1544-1602) Duke of York​

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4) Henry (1546)​

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5) Catherine (1547-1601)​

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6) Henry (1549-1552)​

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7) Francis (1551-1594) Duke of Somerset​

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8) Margaret (1554-1607)​

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9) Mary (1556-1579)​

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Question: let's say Alexandra of Denmark was persuaded / forced / your verbage here to allow Princess Victoria of Wales to marry. Who could she conceivably marry? I know Carlos I of Portugal supposedly asked for her hand but I don't see a Catholic marriage for the daughter of the future king flying. Any ideas?

 

[Peppe]

Question: let's say Alexandra of Denmark was persuaded / forced / your verbage here to allow Princess Victoria of Wales to marry. Who could she conceivably marry? I know Carlos I of Portugal supposedly asked for her hand but I don't see a Catholic marriage for the daughter of the future king flying. Any ideas?

Maybe Nicholas II? The two were almost the same age (he was born in 18 May 1868, she in 6 July) and first cousin marriages were all the rage at the time

 

[HortenseMancini]

Maybe Nicholas II? The two were almost the same age (he was born in 18 May 1868, she in 6 July) and first cousin marriages were all the rage at the time

No dice. Russian Orthodox Church prohibits first cousin marriages and while certain grand dukes (*coughcough* Kirill Vladimirovich) married their first cousins anyways, Nicholas is not going to be one of them.

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Maybe Nicholas II? The two were almost the same age (he was born in 18 May 1868, she in 6 July) and first cousin marriages were all the rage at the time

No dice. Russian Orthodox Church prohibits first cousin marriages and while certain grand dukes (*coughcough* Kirill Vladimirovich) married their first cousins anyways, Nicholas is not going to be one of them.

While I think Alexandra and Dagmar actually would have been on board for this marriage, @curlyhairedhippie is unfortunately right. This also removes her other Orthodox first cousin of the same age, Constantine I of Greece. I literally have no idea who to pair her with.

 

[HortenseMancini]

While I think Alexandra and Dagmar actually would have been on board for this marriage, @curlyhairedhippie is unfortunately right. This also removes her other Orthodox first cousin of the same age, Constantine I of Greece. I literally have no idea who to pair her with.

Personally I think Carlos I could do...but perhaps a British aristocrat, like her sister the future Princess Royal and her aunt the Marchioness of Lorne?

 

[Peppe]

No dice. Russian Orthodox Church prohibits first cousin marriages and while certain grand dukes (*coughcough* Kirill Vladimirovich) married their first cousins anyways, Nicholas is not going to be one of them.

Oh crap, I didn't know that (and now I'll have to do some changing on a TL of mine where I had a british princess being the mother of Nic II and still have him marry Alix)

 

[FalconHonour]

Question: let's say Alexandra of Denmark was persuaded / forced / your verbage here to allow Princess Victoria of Wales to marry. Who could she conceivably marry? I know Carlos I of Portugal supposedly asked for her hand but I don't see a Catholic marriage for the daughter of the future king flying. Any ideas?

Christian X of Denmark? Her younger sister married the King of Norway, so another Scandinavian match might be overkill, but not out of the realm of possibility. Or else, a third wife to William III of the Netherlands, if Emma of Pyrmont dies in childbirth? Gustav V of Sweden? His successor married British, twice, so it's not a massive stretch to imagine he might too. Plus, a double Scandinavian match might be easier for Alexandra to tolerate - her daughters will only be across the border from each other, after all...