Miscellaneous >1900 (Alternate) History Thread

Hugh Third of Five

Zyobot said:
‘Ludlow Amendment Gets Passed’.
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What POD would you be looking at to make this happen? It was defeated 209-188. It needed to get 2/3 of both Houses to be submitted to the states for ratification. At any rate, Japan would still ultimately attack Pearl Harbor. Their plan was to expand across the Asia-Pacific region. They're still going to go after the US Pacific territories, even if their oil supply isn't cut off, and even if the amendment convinces them that the USA will not defend the British Empire. Assuming Hitler's and Mussolini's declarations of war aren't butterflied away, there would be more than enough popular support for a successful referendum to wage war on Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Hugh Third of Five said:
What POD would you be looking at to make this happen? It was defeated 209-188. It needed to get 2/3 of both Houses to be submitted to the states for ratification. At any rate, Japan would still ultimately attack Pearl Harbor. Their plan was to expand across the Asia-Pacific region. They're still going to go after the US Pacific territories, even if their oil supply isn't cut off, and even if the amendment convinces them that the USA will not defend the British Empire. Assuming Hitler's and Mussolini's declarations of war aren't butterflied away, there would be more than enough popular support for a successful referendum to wage war on Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
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I don't read Japan like that in 1941, though my main understanding comes from Marder and maybe he has been passed by now?
 

Hugh Third of Five

Grey Wolf said:
I don't read Japan like that in 1941, though my main understanding comes from Marder and maybe he has been passed by now?
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My understanding was that though there's disagreement over whether or not they wanted to eventually invade Hawaii, they did want the Philippines. It was in a key location both for staging operations in southeast Asia, laying undersea cables, and controlling shipping routes. Even if they didn't attack Pearl Harbor or the Philippines, that doesn't mean there won't be war with the USA. At that time Americans were far more aware of Japanese crimes against humanity than Nazi ones. American public opinion favored the Allied cause in both Europe and the Asia-Pacific region, but much more so in the case of the latter. Polls conducted before the attack varied from showing a plurality to a slight majority believing war against Japan was inevitable. To prevent a war between the USA and Japan, I think you'd have to avert the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, presumably by having Imperial Japan focus on the the Russian Far East instead and not invade China or at least not invade China beyond Manchuria. Planning for the Pearl Harbor attack began before the oil and steel embargo, so although it accelerated Japanese war plans, I doubt removing it would eliminate them. I'm not that familiar with Marder though; most of my understanding of the Asia-Pacific War comes from Richard Frank.

If Japan does make the first move in a war against the USA, I think it would involve an attack on Pearl Harbor. Yamamoto may not have been a proponent of war against against the USA, but he was adamant that if Japan took that course, it should involve opening by striking a firm blow against the US Pacific Fleet. I guess if the bulk of the fleet were still in California, that would make Pearl Harbor a lower priority.
 
McPherson

McPherson

Banned
Hugh Third of Five said:
My understanding was that though there's disagreement over whether or not they wanted to eventually invade Hawaii, they did want the Philippines. It was in a key location both for staging operations in southeast Asia, laying undersea cables, and controlling shipping routes. Even if they didn't attack Pearl Harbor or the Philippines, that doesn't mean there won't be war with the USA. At that time Americans were far more aware of Japanese crimes against humanity than Nazi ones. American public opinion favored the Allied cause in both Europe and the Asia-Pacific region, but much more so in the case of the latter. Polls conducted before the attack varied from showing a plurality to a slight majority believing war against Japan was inevitable. To prevent a war between the USA and Japan, I think you'd have to avert the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, presumably by having Imperial Japan focus on the the Russian Far East instead and not invade China or at least not invade China beyond Manchuria. Planning for the Pearl Harbor attack began before the oil and steel embargo, so although it accelerated Japanese war plans, I doubt removing it would eliminate them. I'm not that familiar with Marder though; most of my understanding of the Asia-Pacific War comes from Richard Frank.

If Japan does make the first move in a war against the USA, I think it would involve an attack on Pearl Harbor. Yamamoto may not have been a proponent of war against against the USA, but he was adamant that if Japan took that course, it should involve opening by striking a firm blow against the US Pacific Fleet. I guess if the bulk of the fleet were still in California, that would make Pearl Harbor a lower priority.
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The incompetent IJN staff at least understood the B-17 problem. They HAD to take Luzon at the minimum.
 
Aquilifer Ferromanum

Aquilifer Ferromanum

I have another scenario I want to share. So, in this scenario, we see that Nazi Germany was successful in WWII (by what means, you decide). Anyway, say the US and the Third Reich get into a 'Cold War' like in OTL with the Soviet Union, but instead its capitalism vs fascism.

Now, say the US were to win this 'cold war' how would the dissolution of the Third Reich play out? For instance, some Reichskommissariats may move for independence like the Baltics in OTL, and maybe an 'August Coup' scenario would take place, where some hardline SS or NSDAP members would take temporary control.

I don't know, what do you guys think?
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
coffeebreakcigarette said:
In WWI the Ottoman Empire and Italy swap places. What would happen if the USA still gets involved or doesn't get involved?
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Interesting!

The Italian and Austrian fleets plus the Goeben look to pose a commanding presence in the Central Med. Assuming Britain lets the Ottomans have their dreadnoughts, you could find some weird Russo-Turkish fleet in response. I would say that in this scenario, Britain has to keep several dreadnoughts in the Med, making the numbers in the North Sea more problematic.

Russian trade can pass the Straits, but unless it is going via Suez, it's likely to run into CP blockade, so presumably the Allies are going to have to escort it in convoys through the Central Med.

Libya is not going to last very long, flanked by both Egypt and Tunisia, but Italy might try an invasion of Malta

The Italian divisions sent to the Western Front, according to plan to stand alongside the Germans in Alsace-Lorraine could make things more dodgy there, but at the same time Britain doesn't need to keep any forces in Egypt to defend Suez.

Does the Italian navy of this period have sufficient elan to attack the French N African convoys? That single act might even win the war.
 
coffeebreakcigarette

coffeebreakcigarette

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Interesting!

The Italian and Austrian fleets plus the Goeben look to pose a commanding presence in the Central Med. Assuming Britain lets the Ottomans have their dreadnoughts, you could find some weird Russo-Turkish fleet in response. I would say that in this scenario, Britain has to keep several dreadnoughts in the Med, making the numbers in the North Sea more problematic.

Russian trade can pass the Straits, but unless it is going via Suez, it's likely to run into CP blockade, so presumably the Allies are going to have to escort it in convoys through the Central Med.

Libya is not going to last very long, flanked by both Egypt and Tunisia, but Italy might try an invasion of Malta

The Italian divisions sent to the Western Front, according to plan to stand alongside the Germans in Alsace-Lorraine could make things more dodgy there, but at the same time Britain doesn't need to keep any forces in Egypt to defend Suez.

Does the Italian navy of this period have sufficient elan to attack the French N African convoys? That single act might even win the war.
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MY PERSONAL PREDICTIONS IN CASE OF CENTRAL POWERS VICTORY ARE
  1. Italians saw Austria more as an enemy, but if they win there will not much to complain
  2. Mussolini might actually stay somewhat "far left"?
  3. Greece joins the Germans against the Ottomans
  4. Most likely no Armenian genocide, but still likely to revolt
  5. Other ethnicities revolts, probably successfull?
  6. Bulgaria and Greece might be on the same team just like a few years prior
  7. Serbia is likely to get crushed by fellow orthodox brothers
  8. Romania might not join unless they want to get curb stomped by the two Empires
  9. Arabs don't revolt , not like OTL at least if they do
  10. The Russian revolutions might be butterflied away if the war end quickly enough?
  11. France might be even less lucky , have to defend a much longer border and if they are distracted by "us" Italians the Germans might actually reach Paris or near
  12. The war might end just slightly the Americans actually enter
  13. Persia might not be invaded? Or they might invade Russia and the Ottoman Empire since their flanks might be exposed? But there is still the British Raj to deal with.
  14. Afghanistan might enter the war if the Niedermayer–Hentig Expedition convinces the Afghans to attack the Raj. Who knows, they might even get up to Baluchistan and Kashmir
  15. Italy probably gets Tunisia, Malta and if the Germans are lucky why not East Africa or Egypt or both (maybe ASB?)
  16. We have some small Mittelafrika?
  17. The Ottoman Empire might collapse harder in Anatolia even with only one front?
  18. As for point 4 and 5, you might see a Pontic State and an Armenia with sea access
  19. Portugal probably says "Fuck I am outta here" not even partecipating. Or why not? Join the krauts since they still are pissed about the pink map.
  20. No communism, no nazism in this TL is likely.
  21. Irish Revolt might actually have all of the island if the timing is right.
  22. The Germans might controll of Papua New Guinea?
@Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
coffeebreakcigarette said:
MY PERSONAL PREDICTIONS IN CASE OF CENTRAL POWERS VICTORY ARE
  1. Italians saw Austria more as an enemy, but if they win there will not much to complain
  2. Mussolini might actually stay somewhat "far left"?
  3. Greece joins the Germans against the Ottomans
  4. Most likely no Armenian genocide, but still likely to revolt
  5. Other ethnicities revolts, probably successfull?
  6. Bulgaria and Greece might be on the same team just like a few years prior
  7. Serbia is likely to get crushed by fellow orthodox brothers
  8. Romania might not join unless they want to get curb stomped by the two Empires
  9. Arabs don't revolt , not like OTL at least if they do
  10. The Russian revolutions might be butterflied away if the war end quickly enough?
  11. France might be even less lucky , have to defend a much longer border and if they are distracted by "us" Italians the Germans might actually reach Paris or near
  12. The war might end just slightly the Americans actually enter
  13. Persia might not be invaded? Or they might invade Russia and the Ottoman Empire since their flanks might be exposed? But there is still the British Raj to deal with.
  14. Afghanistan might enter the war if the Niedermayer–Hentig Expedition convinces the Afghans to attack the Raj. Who knows, they might even get up to Baluchistan and Kashmir
  15. Italy probably gets Tunisia, Malta and if the Germans are lucky why not East Africa or Egypt or both (maybe ASB?)
  16. We have some small Mittelafrika?
  17. The Ottoman Empire might collapse harder in Anatolia even with only one front?
  18. As for point 4 and 5, you might see a Pontic State and an Armenia with sea access
  19. Portugal probably says "Fuck I am outta here" not even partecipating. Or why not? Join the krauts since they still are pissed about the pink map.
  20. No communism, no nazism in this TL is likely.
  21. Irish Revolt might actually have all of the island if the timing is right.
  22. The Germans might controll of Papua New Guinea?
@Grey Wolf
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I can't see how the Ottomans can lose anything in this scenario unless a German-Austrian push through the Balkans (maybe with Greeks even Bulgarians) is able to target Constantinople. BUT Turkish AND Russian forces that OTL were engaged in the Caucasus are free, so in the case of them both being on the same side, they could all be used in Thrace and defeat them.

German expeditions in Central Asia have no Turkish support and at the same time have Turkish AND ISLAMIC emnity.
 
McPherson

McPherson

Banned
coffeebreakcigarette said:
MY PERSONAL PREDICTIONS IN CASE OF CENTRAL POWERS VICTORY ARE
  1. Italians saw Austria more as an enemy, but if they win there will not much to complain
  2. Mussolini might actually stay somewhat "far left"?
  3. Greece joins the Germans against the Ottomans
  4. Most likely no Armenian genocide, but still likely to revolt
  5. Other ethnicities revolts, probably successfull?
  6. Bulgaria and Greece might be on the same team just like a few years prior
  7. Serbia is likely to get crushed by fellow orthodox brothers
  8. Romania might not join unless they want to get curb stomped by the two Empires
  9. Arabs don't revolt , not like OTL at least if they do
  10. The Russian revolutions might be butterflied away if the war end quickly enough?
  11. France might be even less lucky , have to defend a much longer border and if they are distracted by "us" Italians the Germans might actually reach Paris or near
  12. The war might end just slightly the Americans actually enter
  13. Persia might not be invaded? Or they might invade Russia and the Ottoman Empire since their flanks might be exposed? But there is still the British Raj to deal with.
  14. Afghanistan might enter the war if the Niedermayer–Hentig Expedition convinces the Afghans to attack the Raj. Who knows, they might even get up to Baluchistan and Kashmir
  15. Italy probably gets Tunisia, Malta and if the Germans are lucky why not East Africa or Egypt or both (maybe ASB?)
  16. We have some small Mittelafrika?
  17. The Ottoman Empire might collapse harder in Anatolia even with only one front?
  18. As for point 4 and 5, you might see a Pontic State and an Armenia with sea access
  19. Portugal probably says "Fuck I am outta here" not even partecipating. Or why not? Join the krauts since they still are pissed about the pink map.
  20. No communism, no nazism in this TL is likely.
  21. Irish Revolt might actually have all of the island if the timing is right.
  22. The Germans might controll of Papua New Guinea?
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Alright... Let's play RISK.

1. What changes politically that makes Italy want to be triple crossed?
2. Benny the Moose might turn out exactly the way he did. I'm not confident that 1. changes anything for him.
3. Why would Greece commit national suicide?
4. What changes among the Three Pashas?
5. Same again?
6. This is possible, actually.
7. This is RTL, so what changed?
8. Rumania has to pick a side or it will be curb stomped "by the two empires".
9. Arabs will revolt because it is just another cycle of Ottoman politics for them. The question is; "Will they succeed this time?" Refer to 4., and the answer is "YES!".
10. Unless the stuff before the Russo Japanese War is butterflied away and Nicky the Nut has an attack of competence, the Russians WILL revolt by 1917, Lenin or not.
11. Given Cadorna? Art thous kidding?
12. It could just as easily be the Americans enter sooner. Woodrow Wilson was grossly INCOMPETENT and stupid. Replace him with practically anyone else and 1916 looks like a SURE bet. Replace him even with the Pacifist, Hughes, and it will even be a much better run war.
13. Persia does get the works. Courtesy of the British. See 10 for why.
14. Nope. Geography.
15. With that clown crew in Berlin and Cadorna?
16. More likely the British get more frisky. See 13 for why.
17. Three Pashas? Flip a coin.
18. Shrug, Who arms and sponsors? Armenia was proposed as a United States protectorate at Versailles to snarl the Americans up in British shenanigans. Nix to that.
19. The "Germans" (Not all Germans like sour cabbage> I don't.) may have nothing to say about Portugal or anything postwar. I 've written about how incompetent they were about sea-power and international relations from 1890-1945 enough.
20. If it is not communism in Russia, then pick Germany as the Red Menace and I guarantee a fascist Russia as a reaction.
21. Ireland is an island. Geography. Is there any reason the Orangists would quit? Nope.
22. The Americans will take it away from them ... or the Japanese. See 12., 15., and 19..
 
History Learner

History Learner

Banned
Aquilifer Ferromanum said:
I have another scenario I want to share. So, in this scenario, we see that Nazi Germany was successful in WWII (by what means, you decide). Anyway, say the US and the Third Reich get into a 'Cold War' like in OTL with the Soviet Union, but instead its capitalism vs fascism.

Now, say the US were to win this 'cold war' how would the dissolution of the Third Reich play out? For instance, some Reichskommissariats may move for independence like the Baltics in OTL, and maybe an 'August Coup' scenario would take place, where some hardline SS or NSDAP members would take temporary control.

I don't know, what do you guys think?
Click to expand...

I don't see it ending in a U.S. victory; Nazi Germany would have resources, GDP, and manufacturing output to an extent that would at the least rival that of the United States if not surpass it. Given a generation to digest said conquests, Germany would be too powerful to take down; this is why Roosevelt did what he did in the lead up to the war. It wasn't just because Hitler was being a naughty boy, but rather he stood a realistic shot at establishing Germany as the premier power or, alternatively, fucking up so badly the Soviets would end up on the Channel with the same end result but with Communism instead of Fascism.
 

sampleswift

More successful Southern Tenant Farmers' Union? (I don't think that organization accomplished much in real life besides having a terrible acronym)
 
CV(N)-6

CV(N)-6

If Callaghan fell down a ladder and broke his kneck or was incapacitated on 11 or 12 November 1942, would Scott have better fought 1st Guadalcanal, i.e. he keeps his ships together and doesn’t wait forever to shoot?
 
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